140 réponses à ce sujet

[DTKT]

A smaller version of the arrows would probably alleviate most of the concerns.

They are really big.

[Ahglock]

Clonedzero wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Dear Clonedzero,

No I actually enjoy turning that kind of stuff off. You really don't know what you are talking about. Options are, like, optional man. Once you play the game past the tutorial that kind of context sensitve handholding crap is just annoying.

I also hate mini maps.

i'd like you to name me a well received third person shooter where the cover mechanic indicators can be turned off. if you know what you're talking about that should be easy right?

Gears of War.  

[Ruud333]

Clonedzero wrote...

i'd like you to name me a well received third person shooter where the cover mechanic indicators can be turned off. if you know what you're talking about that should be easy right?

Gears of War 1 and 2.

[Clonedzero]

well ill be damned, gears does let you disable them. ive had the game for years and i guess ive never bothered to see if you could cus well, why would you?

so ill concede my point and admit i was mistaken. it just seemed odd that the people asking for it to be disabled didnt actually know what they were.

though i think the best solution would be to make them smaller and lower to the camera

[JayhartRIC]

Just from looking at that gif from earlier in the thread. I think you will need the arrows. You can't even see the cover unless you turn almost 90 degrees. Then you would have to turn back to do the move. After all that I may as well just walk over.

[Shotokanguy]

I'm not really going to understand the rationale behind them until I get the game, I think, but I just want to say this:

Great controls and a cover system that doesn't restrict us to only certain actions will alleviate the need for these. I should be able to make it clear to the game whether I want to roll sideways to another piece of cover a few feet away, or stay in cover and just move around it to the other side. If I can only do a certain thing at a time (as the arrows would indicate, because you only ever see one pop up it seems), we might still have too few options in combat.

[Kandid001]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

I said we'd look into it. No promises. Subtle difference. :happy:

Why do you have to be so cryptic? Correct me if I'm wrong but it shouldn't be THAT hard to make a change like this. It's not like people ask for a total revamp which would require months of work. The upcoming FPS/RPG Deus Ex: Human Revolution had a bright object highlight around all interactable elements (people, loot, doors, etc.) in the world, but many people thought it was bad for the discovery and exploration aspect of the game, so they made the highlight optional based on fan feedback. In the blink of an eye. Just like that.

It's called trial and error, we shouldn't have to put up with EZ mode directions just because the casual scum cannot accept failure in a video game. If people want to disable intrusive interface elements which make the game too easy, they should be able to. It will be an option anyway, so the teens/soccer moms/casuals can still use them if they so prefer. Make them ON by default so the casual couch potatoes won't have to change anything from the options.

Anyway, thanks for "looking into it", at least.<3

[Brenon Holmes]

Kandid001 wrote...

Why do you have to be so cryptic? Correct me if I'm wrong but it shouldn't be THAT hard to make a change like this. It's not like people ask for a total revamp which would require months of work.

Because *I* can't make a decision like that, and even if I could... it's something that would at least warrant a little discussion... don't you think? It's certainly generated some discussion here...

If I say something definitive in any kind of public space, where I am seen to be reflecting the positions and opinions of BioWare, you can be damned sure that I want it to be as accurate as possible. If I can't be accurate or I don't know the answer, I'll say so. :happy: (in this case, I can't be accurate - thus the "crypticness" I guess).

So I can definitively tell you that it'll get added to a list of features and we're going to talk about it... but I can't tell you what the result of that discussion will be... because there are a *huge* number of features, and things always fall off the end of schedules.

I think that's somewhat reasonable, isn't it?

[Kandid001]

Sure is. When I said "you", I was referring to BioWare as a whole, and BioWare crew's posts in the forums, again, as a whole. Not you individually. And it's perfectly understandable that you cannot carry the burden of giving definitive information in public.

Still, I think this arrow thing is a trivial issue, and if it will be talked about, a studio of BioWare's caliber can easily make it optional.

[IrishSpectre257]

Will there be more animations for all those cover actions? I noticed in the E3 demo the swat turns we're the same as a sideways roll, which looked awkward when the adjacent cover was too close for Shepard to go through the entire animation.

[Bluko]

I actually like the arrows. (I still dislike the "look event" or Y Button thing though. I feel it's silly as you basically need to force the player to look at things. I sort of like to find those scenarios on my own. It seems especially silly during combat however to have "look events".)

Anyways I like to know what is cover and what isn't. Since the cover system is completely context based (pre-programmed) it's nice to know what I can actually do and can't. There are too many times I can think of in ME2 where I found a wall or something that looks like cover, but it isn't, since they didn't program the object to let Shepard "stick" to it.

There probably should be an option to turn it off, like aim assist, etc. For those who want an entirely pure experience.

Modifié par Bluko, 20 juin 2011 - 12:24 .

[In Exile]

Captain Crash wrote..
These move out arrows are a little redundant to experienced players.  We know where we going to move to and they arnt providing additional help as we know what were doing.   We are already positioned in a corner and know we can move out of cover.  A blue arrow in this case isnt really needed, but it appears anyway.

The whole point is that you don't actually know where you'll move. Sometimes, you might jump out of cover. Other times, you'lll roll to another cover. Tactical positioning requires that you can tell the difference.

[Casper DM]

I have no problems with the arrows as shown in the footage at E3 but think a toggle is appropriate for those who find them intrusive. I also find a mode where you have the HUD removed to be appealing, played many games without the HUD and found them to be a lot of fun but then they were fps's.

On a related note regarding the GUI, I would like to see an overhaul of the galaxy map on the Normandy, when doing 100% completion runs the map can become very cluttered at times especially if you have the mineral rich planets showing up from the LotSB DLC.

I see no reason why a legend toggle shouldn't be included there.

[DTKT]

Bluko wrote...

I actually like the arrows. (I still dislike the "look event" or Y Button thing though. I feel it's silly as you basically need to force the player to look at things. I sort of like to find those scenarios on my own. It seems especially silly during combat however to have "look events".)

Anyways I like to know what is cover and what isn't. Since the cover system is completely context based (pre-programmed) it's nice to know what I can actually do and can't. There are too many times I can think of in ME2 where I found a wall or something that looks like cover, but it isn't, since they didn't program the object to let Shepard "stick" to it.

There probably should be an option to turn it off, like aim assist, etc. For those who want an entirely pure experience.

I don't get the complain agaisnt the "Use * to look". Red Dead used the exact same mechanic and it worked very well. As long as the actually scene is well made, you shouldn't have to force the player to look somewhere. It should be natural.

You can also totally ignore it.

Modifié par DTKT, 20 juin 2011 - 01:12 .

[Bluko]

DTKT wrote...

Bluko wrote...

I actually like the arrows. (I still dislike the "look event" or Y Button thing though. I feel it's silly as you basically need to force the player to look at things. I sort of like to find those scenarios on my own. It seems especially silly during combat however to have "look events".)

Anyways I like to know what is cover and what isn't. Since the cover system is completely context based (pre-programmed) it's nice to know what I can actually do and can't. There are too many times I can think of in ME2 where I found a wall or something that looks like cover, but it isn't, since they didn't program the object to let Shepard "stick" to it.

There probably should be an option to turn it off, like aim assist, etc. For those who want an entirely pure experience.

I don't get the complain agaisnt the "Use * to look". Red Dead used the exact same mechanic and it worked very well.

You can also totally ignore it.

Actually I don't like it that much in Red Dead either. Focusing your vision on some obscure thing while people are shooting at you is silly. I find it annoyingly distracting as it's basically saying "HEY MAN YOU SHOULD LIKE LOOK AT THIS!" Thank you, but I already know how to use the right analog stick. 

If you're in combat you need to focus on the immediate threats. Your attention should not wander off to look at the big Reaper in the background unless it's firing a molten beam at you or some debris is about to land on your head. Just seems especially daft to look at something not pertaining to you, possibly leaving yourself exposed for a bullet.

If you want players to see something, place it in front of them or in their supposed LOS. (If you stare at the ground too much that's your own fault.) Or use a cutscene if it's that important. I didn't need a Y Button to notice how big Sovereign was in ME1 on the Citadel Tower. I didn't need a Y Button to see the Prothean Towers or Geth Dropships.

[DTKT]

Bluko wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Bluko wrote...

I actually like the arrows. (I still dislike the "look event" or Y Button thing though. I feel it's silly as you basically need to force the player to look at things. I sort of like to find those scenarios on my own. It seems especially silly during combat however to have "look events".)

Anyways I like to know what is cover and what isn't. Since the cover system is completely context based (pre-programmed) it's nice to know what I can actually do and can't. There are too many times I can think of in ME2 where I found a wall or something that looks like cover, but it isn't, since they didn't program the object to let Shepard "stick" to it.

There probably should be an option to turn it off, like aim assist, etc. For those who want an entirely pure experience.

I don't get the complain agaisnt the "Use * to look". Red Dead used the exact same mechanic and it worked very well.

You can also totally ignore it.

Actually I don't like it that much in Red Dead either. Focusing your vision on some obscure thing while people are shooting at you is silly. I find it annoyingly distracting as it's basically saying "HEY MAN YOU SHOULD LIKE LOOK AT THIS!" Thank you, but I already know how to use the right analog stick. 

If you're in combat you need to focus on the immediate threats. Your attention should not wander off to look at the big Reaper in the background unless it's firing a molten beam at you or some debris is about to land on your head. Just seems especially daft to look at something not pertaining to you, possibly leaving yourself exposed for a bullet.

If you want players to see something, place it in front of them or in their supposed LOS. (If you stare at the ground too much that's your own fault.) Or use a cutscene if it's that important. I didn't need a Y Button to notice how big Sovereign was in ME1 on the Citadel Tower. I didn't need a Y Button to see the Prothean Towers or Geth Dropships.

But that's what makes a scene! It's not the stuff going on right in front of you. It's everything around you. A reaper fighting in the background. Smaller firefights around you.

To me, the "Press Y to look" is a compromise between the rigid cutscene which breaks the flow during a combat sequence and doing nothing and letting the player free.

It doesn't work all the time but I always felt it was a better way of guiding the player than a cutscene.

[Shotokanguy]

In Exile wrote...

Captain Crash wrote..
These move out arrows are a little redundant to experienced players.  We know where we going to move to and they arnt providing additional help as we know what were doing.   We are already positioned in a corner and know we can move out of cover.  A blue arrow in this case isnt really needed, but it appears anyway.

The whole point is that you don't actually know where you'll move. Sometimes, you might jump out of cover. Other times, you'lll roll to another cover. Tactical positioning requires that you can tell the difference.

And, I'll keep saying it, right now that sounds like a failure of the game and its controls. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where I see a place I should be able to roll to and I press the roll button and end up doing something different if the cover system works as it should.

Modifié par Shotokanguy, 20 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[Zanallen]

Shotokanguy wrote...

And, I'll keep saying it, right now that sounds like a failure of the game and its controls. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where I see a place I should be able to roll to and I press the roll button and end up doing something different if the cover system works as it should.

The issue seems to be one of camera angles, actually. The camera stays in tight to help you aim, but cuts off potential cover points. So, you can't always see the places that you can potentially roll to without adjusting the camera around.

[Smeelia]

Zanallen wrote...

The issue seems to be one of camera angles, actually. The camera stays in tight to help you aim, but cuts off potential cover points. So, you can't always see the places that you can potentially roll to without adjusting the camera around.

Battlefield awareness helps here, you may not be able to see the cover now but if you saw it before it's unlikely to have moved (maybe they'll be sneaky and put mobile cover into a mission or two though).  Obviously some people will be better at this than others, those that are particularly good might not need the arrows because they have a decent enough idea of what cover options they should have at any given time.  Similarly, those that are not so good at it will find the arrows extremely useful.  I'd say the arrows will be handy for learning what the cover system can actually do anyway so I expect a lot of people would use them to start with and turn them off once they get the hang of it (if that's an option).

[MrFob]

I am not against these icons. I think you'll need them at least when you play through the game for the first time.
IMO it would just be nice if they were a bit more subtle (maybe slight blue illumination on the edge of the screen) rather than huge bulky icons in the middle of the screen.
The option to turn them off in subsequent playthroughs when you know what you are doing wuold be nice but I'd understand that they cannot make a toggle for everything.

[Admoniter]

DTKT wrote...

A smaller version of the arrows would probably alleviate most of the concerns.

They are really big.

Yep that's all I would really need atm they are quite obnoxious althouth, I 'm sure they are just placeholders.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

I think they'll come in handy when I'm trying to sneak up on an enemy from behind cover. Just to make it as unlikely as possible that I'll accidentally jump out of cover and send them flying into a firefight before I reach them. I would like the option to turn thw off though, just in case they end up becoming redundant after I get used to the game's mechanics.

What I WOULD definitely like the option to disable is the quicktime "look" trigger icon. I don't need a big icon to tell me to look at awesome stuff happening in the game area, because I'm the kind of player who ends up looking at everything and taking in the game's surroundings on my own. THAT is much more organic and immersive than having a quicktime event basically tell me when something awesome is happening. I know there are players who would appreciate that icon, but for me (and I imagine, for many others as well) it's just redundant and obtrusive. To me, that type of thing is much more along the lines of "handholding" than the movement arrows are.

So please, Brenon, if you're considering granting us the option to turn off the arrows, PLEASE for all that's sacred, give us the option to turn off that LOOKTHISWAY quicktime icon as well.

[onelifecrisis]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

What I WOULD definitely like the option to disable is the quicktime "look" trigger icon. I don't need a big icon to tell me to look at awesome stuff happening in the game area, because I'm the kind of player who ends up looking at everything and taking in the game's surroundings on my own. THAT is much more organic and immersive than having a quicktime event basically tell me when something awesome is happening. I know there are players who would appreciate that icon, but for me (and I imagine, for many others as well) it's just redundant and obtrusive. To me, that type of thing is much more along the lines of "handholding" than the movement arrows are.

So please, Brenon, if you're considering granting us the option to turn off the arrows, PLEASE for all that's sacred, give us the option to turn off that LOOKTHISWAY quicktime icon as well.

Yeah, I agree. And I don't really get why they've done it that way. If they're going to do stuff like that, why not just do it automatically like every other game instead of making us press a button?

[Heimdall]

On principle, I don't mind them at all and even think they will be useful. However, they could stand to be a little smaller.

[Heimdall]

@onelifecrisis because forcing the playing into a cutscene breaks the flow of a battle.