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[Aigyl]

Salaya wrote...
You should post this in a spoiler allowed forum for better answers

I think it's the worst act because not only feels extremely rushed, but also extremely forced and unbelivable. Some characters react in weird manners and take unnatural decisions. 

Not other part of the game shows the irrelevancy of your choices than Act 3.

Pretty much this.

Act 3's main plot feels pretty rushed, particularly if your Hawke is pro-mage. Also you can get the impression Hawke has the ability to stop the incoming trainwreck but does little about it.

That said I really liked seeing the end of the companions' story arcs. And the endgame choice is still being debated, so there's got to be something to it.

[Recycled Human]

In regards to lobsilvith8's comment :

One could say that Hawke entered into a political game where his hands were tied, he was the champion of the people and both sides were playing on that to get him to do things (or not), ask any politician how effective they are.

Grace was possessed so it's not a large jump to make the assumption that her basic emotions/feelings were compromised. Demons seem to target a single thought and amplify it (Harriman, Anders, Uldred) all wanted one thing and the demon used whatever it could to manipulate them. As for Grace's motivation, the murder of her husband (even though he attacks without talking to you first) is enough for an addled mind to hate you. and if you let her go in act 1(2?) you eventually can find her captured in the gallows where she blames you for everything, so they at least established the problem. Alain tells you grace is just upset but that he really appreciates what you tried to do. The set up is there, the lore is there, I can accept it...grudgingly.

I admit that the scene royally pisses me off because I really like thrask.

I never thought to talk to Cullen so I will do so this playthrough. To be fair however he was notoriously hard to convince in DAO why should he be any different this time around? XD

I didn't really have a problem with Meredith's motives. I personally agree with the whole concept and it's odd that people rage about being forced to perform the right of annulment. Marethari pays the ultimate sacrifice for blood magic so you know first hand what WILL eventually come to a blood mage. All in all, I can see a motivation there. As for Orsino, if you go pro mags he makes no sense...at all.

[Wulfram]

Grace is only really a small portion of the stupid in Best Served Cold. It's all the other people attacking Hawke with not even a semblance of an actual motive that make it so horrible.

I don't actually think Act 3 as a whole is all that bad, but I really hate that quest.

[Nerdage]

 Personally the problem was that, while in acts 1 and 2 the endings were sort of out of the player's control (you were always going to end act 1 going on the expedition, and there wasn't much you could do to appease the Arishok in act 2) it feels like everyone in act 3 is conspiring to make sure everything turns to ****, regardless of what you do.

There's the templars ignoring Anders, especially when the champion practically turns him in; the grand cleric just sitting back and watching when she's one of the most respected people in the city, even though Hawke can tell her she could defuse the issue by picking a side; Anders blowing up a load of priests instead of templars and making sure the knight commander saw him do it (who he should've blown up, too), ensuring the templars were at full strength for the inevitable fight; and let's not forget Orsino going all fleshzilla when he shouldn't.

Basically, more so than the other acts Hawke should really have been able to influence the outcome of act 3 but, while the actions with the potential to change the story are all in the game, the world just seems to ignore you when you make them. It's as though everybody's acting to a script Hawke doesn't know, they all know what's going to happen and when Hawke does something that could change it they just seem to go "Yeah, that's nice, but anyway..". I'm surprised there was none of this while you fight to the gallows during The Last Straw.

Modifié par nerdage, 19 juin 2011 - 02:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Recycled Human wrote...

In regards to lobsilvith8's comment :

One could say that Hawke entered into a political game where his hands were tied, he was the champion of the people and both sides were playing on that to get him to do things (or not), ask any politician how effective they are.

It's not an issue about how effective Hawke is, since his speech will either convince people to agree that Meredith needs to be removed or to side with her, but the opening scene is established as though Hawke has never given an opinion on the matter in three years. Has Hawke been in a coma all this time? Wouldn't an apostate Hawke want to see Meredith removed? Wouldn't a pro-templar Hawke have been supporting Meredith or the templars all this time?

Recycled Human wrote...

Grace was possessed so it's not a large jump to make the assumption that her basic emotions/feelings were compromised. Demons seem to target a single thought and amplify it (Harriman, Anders, Uldred) all wanted one thing and the demon used whatever it could to manipulate them. As for Grace's motivation, the murder of her husband (even though he attacks without talking to you first) is enough for an addled mind to hate you. and if you let her go in act 1(2?) you eventually can find her captured in the gallows where she blames you for everything, so they at least established the problem. Alain tells you grace is just upset but that he really appreciates what you tried to do. The set up is there, the lore is there, I can accept it...grudgingly.

It doesn't change that she's a cardboard cutout antagonist who only exists to show us another mage antagonist when there are more than enough throughout the entire storyline. When Thrask addresses that he's been inspiring mages and templars to work together, side by side, and aims to remove a dictator from power, I thought Hawke would finally have a chance to be proactive and aid Thrask in restoring Kirkwall to the people. Instead, I have a ridiclous antagonist murder Thrask, and I find Grace's motivation to be extremely poor story-wise.

Recycled Human wrote...

I admit that the scene royally pisses me off because I really like thrask.

I liked Thrask, too. He's one of the few proactive characters.

Recycled Human wrote...

I never thought to talk to Cullen so I will do so this playthrough. To be fair however he was notoriously hard to convince in DAO why should he be any different this time around? XD

Cullen doesn't dismiss the claim, he seems to regard it as serious, but he doesn't do anything about it. Anders is standing right there, and Cullen does nothing about Hawke warning them that there's a plot against the Chantry. I honestly don't understand why the writers included a scene where Hawke warned Cullen if he doesn't do anything about it. It's like the writers intended for us to view everyone in Kirkwall as being incompetent.

Recycled Human wrote...

I didn't really have a problem with Meredith's motives. I personally agree with the whole concept and it's odd that people rage about being forced to perform the right of annulment. Marethari pays the ultimate sacrifice for blood magic so you know first hand what WILL eventually come to a blood mage. All in all, I can see a motivation there. As for Orsino, if you go pro mags he makes no sense...at all.

People address the Right of Annulment because Meredith makes it clear she's invoking it because "the people will demand blood," which is an argument she repeats. Meredith's argument to Hawke is never about blood magic and she never even disputes Anders' confession (and pretty much handwaves the apostate), and Marethari's actions pertain to what she speculated would happen because of the restored Eluvian, not because of Merrill using blood magic.

[Recycled Human]

Excellent points all! Hawke most likely should have been more proactive at the start of the turmoil; especially if you play an aggressive Hawke. He wouldn't have stood idly by. However, his emotional state could be that of mourning (though it's never openly discussed) and it's possible he regarded the problem as entirely a 'chantry-problem'. I agree the it looks bad for the hero that three years pass uneventful but I just suspended my disbelief a bit (which I understand is not a good answer, I merely suggest that it could be why I personally wasn't bothered by it). For Hawke's inactivity I can only scratch my head and look to fanfiction to make up the difference (!!)

Grace at least is an established cardboard cut out of a villain, it felt like a loose end was tied up. It never sat right with me when you kill her husband as she coldly dismisses it in favor of saving her own skin. Petrice was a better version of what Grace should have been. Mostly, I could do without her because I just liked thrask so much...he was one of the few characters that could be reasoned with.

My only dissenting opinion is in regards to the blood magic, Marethari references the price she choose to pay for Merrill's blood magic, claiming it to be the price of blood magic in general. The eluvian was a method for the demon to cross over with it's full power but all demons offering blood magic eventually seek to escape as abominations. That Meredith claimed that the people will want blood is true and I agree with that as well. The outside world would still see the 'no compromise' situation as caused by a mage, race plays in every time right or wrong, the prejudice of a 'dangerous mage' would still be the prevailing cause of the death of so many innocents. Like I said, Meredith makes sense all the way up till the point where she reveals her lyrium idol sword. (The Templar ending as I recall had the one moment of epicures I was waiting for in the game, had I picked mages first I wonder if I would have liked it as much..) Anyway, before the act of terrorism she almost exclusively targets blood mages.

[White_Jedi]

I guess act 3 would make the most sense on a pro templar playthrough, if Meredith doesn't try to kill you anyway that is. If you are on a pro mage playthrough however, especially if you have done the Undergroung Railroad quest's and sided with the mages throughout the game till this point, mages, even mages you have saved in some fashion will try to kill you throughout act 3. Maybe a patch could explain some of this on such a playthrough, but as it stands now, siding with the mages as is net's you no friendship with the mages at the end. It's bizarre to try to explain till you see it for yourself. Anders goes freedom fighter (or terrorist, depends on your viewpoint) for the mages, and Meredith seemingly ignores him while he is standing right in front of her telling everyone what he has done and why he did it, but uses his actions as an excuse to kill all the mages from Kirkwall's circle (at least), though no mages from the circle (that we know of) were even aware what Anders planned to do. I can't see anything after that having much logic, though maybe by then, illogical action is the point.

[jaybee93]

I didn't dislike act 3, but I think it was weaker than act 2 because of the villains. Act 2 was so beautifully set up with the Arishok and Petrice, people who you could dislike or not and still respect them, or not. They had intentions that were complicated. Neither Orsino nor Meredith had the Arishok's depth. A little more character development there would have really helped out.

[Lucian820]

Act 3 is the worst because:

1) Waaay too short (maybe that will be fixed with DLC and was intended)
2) Lack of consequences based on choices. I'mm fine with the war happening whether you choose mages ro templars, somethings cannot be averted and I realize they need to keep their story going, but they could have us just fight Meredith OR Orsino (that would have been a big start as having to fight Orsino in a Mage playthrough makes zero sense).
3) No real direction or dramatic build up. Just a few main plotline quests that you can race through to the end and a bunch of side quests.

I think people's biggest issues with DA2 is they thought their companions should be their puppets and if they as the PC didn't do the companion's side quest that for some reason the companion wouldn't have it withi them to go do it on their own. Stupid of those players to assume that in my opinion, makes it more realistic this way. They should have just implemented some dialogue were the companion is like "Hey I went and did that side quest you ignored, thanks for the help /end sarcasm."

[Foolsfolly]

Where was this thread a few months ago? I'm tired of talking about the reasons why the last act sucked.

If you're so interested, OP. Go back through all these many threads and see why.

Now, when the hell's new DLC coming?

[stoicsentry2]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Rauhallinen wrote...
Act 1 and 2 suck almost as badly and take lot more time to play. Act 3 is over quickly and once you finish it the game is finished. No more grueling dullness from forcing yourself to play it just because you liked previous Bioware games.

True; but until the credits start rolling you can't help thinking: maybe it will get better at one point, no way this game can be that bad?

lol.... yes, I was thinking the same, but it IS that bad, it IS

[GodWood]

Orsino

Meredith

LOLEVILSWORD!!!!!!11Q

[LobselVith8]

Recycled Human wrote...

Excellent points all! Hawke most likely should have been more proactive at the start of the turmoil; especially if you play an aggressive Hawke. He wouldn't have stood idly by. However, his emotional state could be that of mourning (though it's never openly discussed) and it's possible he regarded the problem as entirely a 'chantry-problem'. I agree the it looks bad for the hero that three years pass uneventful but I just suspended my disbelief a bit (which I understand is not a good answer, I merely suggest that it could be why I personally wasn't bothered by it). For Hawke's inactivity I can only scratch my head and look to fanfiction to make up the difference (!!)

Thank you. The developers have said they have heard the criticism and will do something about it in terms of DLC (and I suppose an expansion, if sales perform well), but we'll have to wait and see if any real changes are really implemented or if this is all lip service. If the DLC makes the necessary changes for Hawke to be a proactive protagonist who demonstrates intelligence and can make some meaningful choices, I'll be pleased.

Recycled Human wrote...

Grace at least is an established cardboard cut out of a villain, it felt like a loose end was tied up. It never sat right with me when you kill her husband as she coldly dismisses it in favor of saving her own skin. Petrice was a better version of what Grace should have been. Mostly, I could do without her because I just liked thrask so much...he was one of the few characters that could be reasoned with.

It never sat right with me that virtually every mage antagonist needs to act like they lack intelligence, rationality, and sanity. Decimus acted like a fool, and that's part of my problem. This wasn't necessary. Why couldn't Decimus be a desperate mage who wanted his freedom? Why is he willing to attack an apostate accompanied by another apostate wearing feathers, a Dalish elf, and an elf with lyrium tattos, and assume they're templars?

Recycled Human wrote...

My only dissenting opinion is in regards to the blood magic, Marethari references the price she choose to pay for Merrill's blood magic, claiming it to be the price of blood magic in general. The eluvian was a method for the demon to cross over with it's full power but all demons offering blood magic eventually seek to escape as abominations.

Marethari assumed that's what Audacity was going to do. There's no evidence to support the Keeper's assumptions. Marethari followed her assumption up by becoming an abomination, which was entirely her choice - Merrill didn't force her to become an abomination, nor did her blood magic force Marethari to make this choice. The Keeper had free will, and exercised it to make a dangerous choice that endangered her entire clan.

Recycled Human wrote...

That Meredith claimed that the people will want blood is true and I agree with that as well. The outside world would still see the 'no compromise' situation as caused by a mage, race plays in every time right or wrong, the prejudice of a 'dangerous mage' would still be the prevailing cause of the death of so many innocents.

I have to respectfully disagree. Meredith could have isolated the mages in the large fortress she has, that's located on an island and seperated from the mainland of Kirkwall, but Meredith choses to endanger civilians who will get caught in the crossfires of the templars and mages battling one another with the Right of Annulment. Meredith made the easy choice in ordering the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children, and it doesn't make me respect her position that she handwaved Anders' existance or did nothing to protect the civilians.

Recycled Human wrote...

Like I said, Meredith makes sense all the way up till the point where she reveals her lyrium idol sword. (The Templar ending as I recall had the one moment of epicures I was waiting for in the game, had I picked mages first I wonder if I would have liked it as much..) Anyway, before the act of terrorism she almost exclusively targets blood mages.

If you take the pro-templar position, I suppose you'd think Meredith made sense. I didn't take such an approach, and I have trouble taking Orsino and Meredith seriously now knowing what they do in Act III. I can't take the story seriously when the antagonists are cartoons in order to bring its point across. Where's the intelligence? Where's the conflict between sane people who have different points of view when all we're presented with is everyone is losing their minds? The depiction of mages giving into demons in 2 seconds was ridiculous and absurd. Orsino didn't need to turn into a Harvester, and Meredith didn't need a macguffin to possess her. I'd have preferred fleshed out characters and an interesting schism between templars and mages.

[TEWR]

As it stands, the red lyrium is I guess a bad excuse. Had we either learned more about it or gotten to know Meredith prior to her acquisition of the lyrium idol and after, it would've been a good thing towards the plot.

[maxernst]

You could have had a relatively reasonable Templar like Cullen decide that with blood magic running rampant through the Circle and his past experiences in Ferelden opt for the rite of annulment or the tranquil solution. That would have been better than a posessed nutcase Meredith.

[MinotaurWarrior]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Whatsupnewyork wrote...

I don't see why it is so bad to you people, sorry....

Hawke does nothing for three years while Meredith has become a dictator, Hawke continues to be reactive even if he thinks Meredith should be deposed since others are working to remove her from power (from the nobles to Ser Thrask), Ser Thrask is killed in an asinine quest that makes no sense as a pro-mage protagonist (since everyone is claiming Hawke is working for Meredith, even if Hawke publicly condemned her), and Thrask is killed by a character (Grace) who has a nonsensical motivation and is pretty much a cardboard cutout villain. Cullen can be warned about Anders' plot against the Chantry, and he does nothing even when Anders is standing right next to Hawke.

The antagonists Hawke faces at the end are devoid of any depth and lack the complexity of an antagonist like Loghain; where The Warden's foe had his reasons for acting against the protagonist, Hawke's foes feel more like they belong in the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show when we see Orsino become a Harvester for no logical reason (with a pro-mage Hawke), Cullen will stand with a templar-killing pro-mage Hawke over Meredith even though he's made it clear he doesn't think mages should be treated like people, and Meredith becomes insane because of a macguffin that is never explained. If Hawke was pro-templar, the victory of the templars and the defeat of the mages inspires the mages that "the templars can be defied," even though the templars won and weren't defied.

I agree with this completely.

It just felt like everyone was completely ignoring who Hawke was. I'm the guy who uses blood magic in the streets to kill thugs, whose LI is involved in a mage underground railroad, who personally freed a half dozen mages, and who told Meredith she could go to hell right in front of everyone. Yet Meredith makes me do a quest for her, and some mages still think I'm against them? It's just infuriating.

I wish that Act III had gone a little something like this: in the inter-act cutscene it is revealed that you spent the three years after the Qunari attacked building up political power. Meredith has been attempting more authoritarian measures, and Orsino has been blatantly subverting her authority. You have been called in to mediate between them on behalf of the nobility of Kirkwall. After that fails, you do a series of quests for either Meredith, Orsino, or on behalf of the general nobility of Kirkwall. The qeusts don't actually change depending on who you work for, but you have different official objectives: Meredith wants you to kill the mages, nobles want you to get the mages back into the circle unharmed, Orsino wants them to be set free. You can do whatever you want, but people might get pissy. One quest is about templar excess, one is about some blood mages, one is about some mages who are trying to *ahem* 'transfer' themselves to a saner circle (such as Klinoch Hold in Ferelden). Your actions in the past determine what options are available (help out a bunch of mages in ACT I? They'll trust you). In the end, it becomes clear that things between Orsino and Meredith aren't just going to cool down on their own, and everyone is turning to you to protect their junk in the upcoming conflict. In a series of small quests, you gather your resources (the town guard, various private forces, et cetera), and then there is a second mediation. If you sided with the Templars, Orsino is ranting and raving. If you sides with the mages, Meredith is acusing you of going against the will of Andraste. If you took the middle path, and were making peace between the mages and templars, then Anders is upset, because he feels that the status quo is unjust, and even a kinder, gentler circle shouldn't be permitted to exist, and so he blows up Elithina, saying explicitly that she is a symbol of the (in his opinion) unjust peace that has existed for centuries, where mages are denied their freedoms. Then you side with the templars, mages, or (like in the Witcher 1) take the neutral path and try to restore the old social order with the forces of the nobility behind you. You then have to battle the leaders you didn't side with. Meredith if you sided with the mages, Orsino if you sided with the templars, or both if you sided with the nobility (perhaps the factionists get expanded fights with their chosen enemies, to make it fair). No matter what you do, extremists from both sides survive the conflict, and spread it to the rest of Thedas.

The lyrium idol, and the desperation harvester, never existed.

[Nightdragon8]

i don't see what you guys are saying the templar ending and the mage ending are differnt. One you say in the city as vicount, in the other you leave the city. (with Isabella if you said you would like yourself on her crew)

As for having mages who still think you are against them. From one 1 of them was a wacko, blaming you for her loves death and the second thing twitter wasn't around so they couldn't find out what you said. How do you know the Templars wheren't lieing saying that the champion was against the mages.

As for Meredith, she wanted you to do the quests to show you how threatening the blood mages are, and the "reason" why she wants to squeeze mages so tightly. Or did you not even listen to her reason.

Umm you killed the Knight-commander in the pro templar side as well. So they get teh idea, hey they can be killed, and revolt. You need to use the broder definition of defying. You can still defy your parents and still lose you know. Every talk back to them becaus you didn't want to do something but had to anyway in the end? You Defied your parents but lost.

[Demx]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Where was this thread a few months ago? I'm tired of talking about the reasons why the last act sucked.

If you're so interested, OP. Go back through all these many threads and see why.

Now, when the hell's new DLC coming?

It will take some time this time around, because Bioware is supposedly making new areas for this DLC unlike all the other DLCs that were released for the series.

[LobselVith8]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

i don't see what you guys are saying the templar ending and the mage ending are differnt. One you say in the city as vicount, in the other you leave the city. (with Isabella if you said you would like yourself on her crew)

Both endings have Hawke disappear in three years, both endings have the mages rebelling because Hawke showed them that "the templars can be defied," and both endings have the templars leaving the Chantry to hunt down the mages. And the person listed staying at Hawke's side is always the love interest. I fail to see how dramatically different the two endings are when it makes no sense for Cullen to protect a pro-mage, templar-killing Hawke, or why Orsino would go insane with a pro-mage Hawke who dispatched the templar horde.

Nightdragon8 wrote...

As for having mages who still think you are against them. From one 1 of them was a wacko, blaming you for her loves death and the second thing twitter wasn't around so they couldn't find out what you said. How do you know the Templars wheren't lieing saying that the champion was against the mages.

Dealing with insane mage antagonists doesn't really inspire me when both sides are depicted being repellant, which is why more than a few people wished Hawke could simply leave all the insane people behind in Kirkwall. You go from Decimus to Ser Alrik and it's clear that the people in Kirkwall are either insane or stupid. Just see Cullen right after he is told Anders is plotting against the Chantry... which Hawke can tell him when Anders is standing right next to Hawke in the Gallows. There's more complexity and intelligence in the mage and templar threads over the dichotomy between mages and templars than there is in Dragon Age 2, which is pretty sad.

Nightdragon8 wrote...

As for Meredith, she wanted you to do the quests to show you how threatening the blood mages are, and the "reason" why she wants to squeeze mages so tightly. Or did you not even listen to her reason.

Huon is an insane blood mage, and Evelina is an abomination, and both of them seemed to be normal prior to being in Meredith's care (as we see a sane Evelina in Act II, and Huon's wife apparently married a sane man when she talks to Hawke and Merrill about her husband), and we hear about templars talking about Meredith speaking to someone in her office when no one is actually there, and we see her madness when she thinks her own templars are being mind controlled by blood mages for disagreeing with her actions. We could argue "chicken or the egg" over the treatment of mages under Meredith's administration, but we'd still end up with Orsino's stupidity in Act III and Meredith's insanity in Act III, as well as the other foolish and insane people who litter Kirkwall.

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Umm you killed the Knight-commander in the pro templar side as well. So they get teh idea, hey they can be killed, and revolt. You need to use the broder definition of defying. You can still defy your parents and still lose you know. Every talk back to them becaus you didn't want to do something but had to anyway in the end? You Defied your parents but lost.

Mages killing templars isn't a new concept, and I don't see how a pro-templar Hawke who helped Knight-Captain Cullen and Meredith enact the Right of Annulment "inspired" the mages to rebel against the Chantry for showing that the "templars could be defied." It doesn't really make any sense.

[Torax]

Odds are it was just more like some Resolutionists and Libertarians probably managed to spur some to action. I just will always find it hard to see the other frats going to war. Unless it's some pointless sort of "force them into a corner ploy" but saying an off shoot of Templars vs. an off shoot of mages some how spurs them all to action? Not really likely.


P.S. the only really difference between the 2 endings is that the emo rage transformation by Orsino makes absolutely zero sense if you're helping the mages against the templars. Meanwhile at least if you're a templar he supposedly chides with pride about how he helped the guy who killed killed your mother. Meanwhile he gets to act all innocent and kind if you're a supporter the entire time...

Modifié par Torax, 21 juin 2011 - 11:46 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

As for having mages who still think you are against them. From one 1 of them was a wacko, blaming you for her loves death and the second thing twitter wasn't around so they couldn't find out what you said. How do you know the Templars wheren't lieing saying that the champion was against the mages.

As for Meredith, she wanted you to do the quests to show you how threatening the blood mages are, and the "reason" why she wants to squeeze mages so tightly. Or did you not even listen to her reason.

Umm you killed the Knight-commander in the pro templar side as well. So they get teh idea, hey they can be killed, and revolt. You need to use the broder definition of defying. You can still defy your parents and still lose you know. Every talk back to them becaus you didn't want to do something but had to anyway in the end? You Defied your parents but lost.

Those are excuses. Some of them make sense in-universe, some of them don't, but the important part is that the developers could have made Act III responsive to your choices, but they didn't. Having a bunch of excuses for why my choices don't matter doesn't make it any less annoying.

[Torax]

The problem is it's far more a blatant break of the "Illusion of choice" by offering what appears to be a decision when there wasn't one at all. The most blatant one that caught me in DA2 was refusing to escort Saarebas out of Kirkwall yet you are forced to do it anyway right after. The ended is just cause no matter what Orsino is a recycled skinned mini-boss for Meredith...