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[TJPags]

Torax wrote...

If we're talking about Origins.

The Player is a Grey Warden. They are basically trusted Guardians. The Templars would not question a Grey Warden or their companions as long as they do not witness them doing something inherently vindictive or evil. Think of them as a neutral protector of all living beings as many would see them. The Grey Wardens sacrifice greatly so that life can continue to exist despite the darkspawn. Mages have been in the Grey Wardens before and this is not a secret. So Morrigan would not be questioned because of her affiliation with the Warden. Just like they don't question a giant talking Golem that keeps wanting to smash fleshy people...

Cullen doesn't complain in DA2 because you helped him kill a Templar who turned into an abomination right in front of him. You were going there to investigate the same thing he was. You were on the same side from his point of view. Even though you and your party are mages, he has no reason to bother you. Especially if you offer to go to the brothel to find out what happened there...

Yes, but the Templar obviously became possessed with the help of a mage - and here stand 3 mages, who just came with someone who just happened to have come to find him.  I wouldn't blame him at all for being suspicious of ANYone showing up.  But 3 mages?  And he says nothing?  Doesn't even ask if they are circle mages or not?  Just - ignores it?

Sorry - seems so off the wall to me.

[Torax]

TJPags wrote...

Torax wrote...

If we're talking about Origins.

The Player is a Grey Warden. They are basically trusted Guardians. The Templars would not question a Grey Warden or their companions as long as they do not witness them doing something inherently vindictive or evil. Think of them as a neutral protector of all living beings as many would see them. The Grey Wardens sacrifice greatly so that life can continue to exist despite the darkspawn. Mages have been in the Grey Wardens before and this is not a secret. So Morrigan would not be questioned because of her affiliation with the Warden. Just like they don't question a giant talking Golem that keeps wanting to smash fleshy people...

Cullen doesn't complain in DA2 because you helped him kill a Templar who turned into an abomination right in front of him. You were going there to investigate the same thing he was. You were on the same side from his point of view. Even though you and your party are mages, he has no reason to bother you. Especially if you offer to go to the brothel to find out what happened there...

Yes, but the Templar obviously became possessed with the help of a mage - and here stand 3 mages, who just came with someone who just happened to have come to find him.  I wouldn't blame him at all for being suspicious of ANYone showing up.  But 3 mages?  And he says nothing?  Doesn't even ask if they are circle mages or not?  Just - ignores it?

Sorry - seems so off the wall to me.

I'm a Templar and I'm trying to interogate the only lead I have left. The brothel won't answer my questions for fear of being shut down for servicing recruits. The recruit infront of me turns into an abomination powerful enough to summon added spirits from the fade to aid it in battle. Some others come to my aid. Some may use magic to help destroy these evil things trying to kill me. But the ones who came before Wilmod became an abomination are not attacking me? No they are killing the Abomination and the spirits? That is weird, maybe I should just hate them for using magic even though they helped me. Now they are asking me about the other recruit I have not been able to locate? The recruit's sister asked them to look for him? Maybe they can find out what happened at the brothel? I don't want to lose another recruit. That costs years of training and money.

I'm sorry but you are looking for a reason to complain bout the logic but the logic is against you. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. A mage willing to kill abominations, demons and blood mages attempting to attack the Templars from inside is far more of a problem than the handful of apostates who are willing to kill the malicious demon worshipping blood mages that are kidnapping templars in spite. And after you complete said quest going back and telling him what happened? He has further reason to not drag you in. You kept your word to investigate and to a point resolved an issue for him. Being an Amell may also play a part in it. He remembers the Amell Wardens as First Enchanters favorite and later as the savior of the Tower that was in shambles...

[TJPags]

Torax wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Torax wrote...

If we're talking about Origins.

The Player is a Grey Warden. They are basically trusted Guardians. The Templars would not question a Grey Warden or their companions as long as they do not witness them doing something inherently vindictive or evil. Think of them as a neutral protector of all living beings as many would see them. The Grey Wardens sacrifice greatly so that life can continue to exist despite the darkspawn. Mages have been in the Grey Wardens before and this is not a secret. So Morrigan would not be questioned because of her affiliation with the Warden. Just like they don't question a giant talking Golem that keeps wanting to smash fleshy people...

Cullen doesn't complain in DA2 because you helped him kill a Templar who turned into an abomination right in front of him. You were going there to investigate the same thing he was. You were on the same side from his point of view. Even though you and your party are mages, he has no reason to bother you. Especially if you offer to go to the brothel to find out what happened there...

Yes, but the Templar obviously became possessed with the help of a mage - and here stand 3 mages, who just came with someone who just happened to have come to find him.  I wouldn't blame him at all for being suspicious of ANYone showing up.  But 3 mages?  And he says nothing?  Doesn't even ask if they are circle mages or not?  Just - ignores it?

Sorry - seems so off the wall to me.

I'm a Templar and I'm trying to interogate the only lead I have left. The brothel won't answer my questions for fear of being shut down for servicing recruits. The recruit infront of me turns into an abomination powerful enough to summon added spirits from the fade to aid it in battle. Some others come to my aid. Some may use magic to help destroy these evil things trying to kill me. But the ones who came before Wilmod became an abomination are not attacking me? No they are killing the Abomination and the spirits? That is weird, maybe I should just hate them for using magic even though they helped me. Now they are asking me about the other recruit I have not been able to locate? The recruit's sister asked them to look for him? Maybe they can find out what happened at the brothel? I don't want to lose another recruit. That costs years of training and money.

I'm sorry but you are looking for a reason to complain bout the logic but the logic is against you. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. A mage willing to kill abominations, demons and blood mages attempting to attack the Templars from inside is far more of a problem than the handful of apostates who are willing to kill the malicious demon worshipping blood mages that are kidnapping templars in spite. And after you complete said quest going back and telling him what happened? He has further reason to not drag you in. You kept your word to investigate and to a point resolved an issue for him. Being an Amell may also play a part in it. He remembers the Amell Wardens as First Enchanters favorite and later as the savior of the Tower that was in shambles...

I'm a Templar, trained and intended to keep Circle mages under guard and under control, and to hunt apostates.  I'm investigating missing recruits, one of whom changes into an abomination before my eyes - something that normally does not occur without magic.  Someone I don't know shows up during this, with 3 mages in tow.  Yes, they help me - but who are these people?  Why are they here?  Why did they help me?

The other missing recruits sister asked them to find him?  Hmm, maybe, maybe not.  Do I question them?  No, let's not.  Let's send them to the brothel.  Should I follow them?  Have someone watch them?  No, let's trust them to be exactly who they say, and do exactly what they claim.  After all, there's no chance that they're simply trying to get on my good side, or use me and my position or anything, right?

Maybe I'm just suspicious by nature, but I wouldn't say the logic is against me.  I'd say the lack of any apparent suspicion is glaring - Cullen does not even question or mention the multiple mages, clearly apostates, standing there.  That's like a cop ignoring 3 known and obvious gang members who show up and rescue him from a liquor store robbery gone bad.  Question and decide to trust, okay - fail to question?  No, makes no sense to me.

[DPSSOC]

I wouldn't have minded more Wesley moments where Templars like Cullen, Kerran, and Thrask acknowledge your mageishness and that of your companions but then offer an explanation for why they aren't going to drag you to the Gallows (easy for all 3). You can then have conversations with them later where they explain actions they're taking to keep the Order off your back (as a show of gratitude), but emphasize that, while the Order may not act against you, you and your companions are being watched.

Right there, doesn't add any new difficulty for mage players but does address the illegal nature of your existence, and offers a plausible reason for why it's not a problem.

[Sajuro]

If people are going to get taken to the circle because they chose to be mages, they would be ****ing on the forums about how Bioware hated mages. There are plenty of good reasons on this thread so use your imagination and deal with it.

[Jugo616]

Thats the big question? There was powerful blood mages from tevinter living in hightown. Its not that hard to become invisible with your crimes when you have power and wealth - politicians and mafia do it all the time.

[Aradace]

Sajuro wrote...

If people are going to get taken to the circle because they chose to be mages, they would be ****ing on the forums about how Bioware hated mages. There are plenty of good reasons on this thread so use your imagination and deal with it.

Thank you lol...This about sums up any complaint anyone might have in the future on the subject.

[IanPolaris]

Aradace wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If people are going to get taken to the circle because they chose to be mages, they would be ****ing on the forums about how Bioware hated mages. There are plenty of good reasons on this thread so use your imagination and deal with it.

Thank you lol...This about sums up any complaint anyone might have in the future on the subject.

No it really doesn't.  It reflects a fundamental failure of writing.  Specifically the fiction that Bioware is basing the game on is fundamentally unable to present the gameplay that Bioware feels that the customer wants.  Rather than FACING this problem and doing something about it (even if only a handwave), Bioware persistantly pretends there isn't a problem and hope we are too dumb to notice.

Thedas (and Kirkwall) as written, it should be impossible to be a PC mage unless you are a Grey Warden or otherwise have some other very special exemption, and the game completely ignores that.  That's criminal when the entire basis of the GAME is the treatment of mages.....

-Polaris

[Aradace]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If people are going to get taken to the circle because they chose to be mages, they would be ****ing on the forums about how Bioware hated mages. There are plenty of good reasons on this thread so use your imagination and deal with it.

Thank you lol...This about sums up any complaint anyone might have in the future on the subject.

No it really doesn't.  It reflects a fundamental failure of writing.  Specifically the fiction that Bioware is basing the game on is fundamentally unable to present the gameplay that Bioware feels that the customer wants.  Rather than FACING this problem and doing something about it (even if only a handwave), Bioware persistantly pretends there isn't a problem and hope we are too dumb to notice.

Thedas (and Kirkwall) as written, it should be impossible to be a PC mage unless you are a Grey Warden or otherwise have some other very special exemption, and the game completely ignores that.  That's criminal when the entire basis of the GAME is the treatment of mages.....

-Polaris

If you want a game that pays that attention to detail, go play BG or whatever other game you claim has that much attention.  If BioWare paid THAT much attention to the story, very few people would want to play a mage.  And the devs have already stated before that they "Do not want to punish players for playing a certain way".  If you were at risk of being dragged off to the circle at any given moment as a mage that would in a sense make some players feel they were being "punished" for playing a mage.  

[Jugo616]

Maybe most of the templars is just too affraid? Even if you play  good Hawke, he still is one of the most brutal mass murderers Kirkvall ever had...

Modifié par Jugo616, 21 juin 2011 - 02:04 .

[macrocarl]

After Meredith says she overlooks the mageiness of you, you can catch up with Cullen in Act 3 where he says something along the lines of 'You are the only mage that Meredith allows to work this close for her" and if you follow that up with some of the other Templars (I forget which) at the Gallows they make light mention of the fact you've sided with Meredith despite her craziness which after talking to Cullen fits for me. It's almost like they're saying, dude you're a mage and she's going crazy, WTF?

[LobselVith8]

Aradace wrote...

If you want a game that pays that attention to detail, go play BG or whatever other game you claim has that much attention. If BioWare paid THAT much attention to the story, very few people would want to play a mage. And the devs have already stated before that they "Do not want to punish players for playing a certain way". If you were at risk of being dragged off to the circle at any given moment as a mage that would in a sense make some players feel they were being "punished" for playing a mage.

I think avoiding having an apostate Hawke using magic in front of guards and templars would suffice. Even having an apostate Hawke killing templars who might be hunting for a "stranger" in the area who was using magic would help bring some realism instead of the lazy writing that ignored it almost entirely. It's not like games haven't explored this premise before instead of handwaving it.

[Aradace]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

If you want a game that pays that attention to detail, go play BG or whatever other game you claim has that much attention. If BioWare paid THAT much attention to the story, very few people would want to play a mage. And the devs have already stated before that they "Do not want to punish players for playing a certain way". If you were at risk of being dragged off to the circle at any given moment as a mage that would in a sense make some players feel they were being "punished" for playing a mage.

I think avoiding having an apostate Hawke using magic in front of guards and templars would suffice. Even having an apostate Hawke killing templars who might be hunting for a "stranger" in the area who was using magic would help bring some realism instead of the lazy writing that ignored it almost entirely. It's not like games haven't explored this premise before instead of handwaving it.

Now that I could agree with, especially the killing templars part.  Truth be told, you had my rapt attention as soon as you posted anything about killing templars lol.

[JamieCOTC]

Aradace wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If people are going to get taken to the circle because they chose to be mages, they would be ****ing on the forums about how Bioware hated mages. There are plenty of good reasons on this thread so use your imagination and deal with it.

Thank you lol...This about sums up any complaint anyone might have in the future on the subject.

No it really doesn't.  It reflects a fundamental failure of writing.  Specifically the fiction that Bioware is basing the game on is fundamentally unable to present the gameplay that Bioware feels that the customer wants.  Rather than FACING this problem and doing something about it (even if only a handwave), Bioware persistantly pretends there isn't a problem and hope we are too dumb to notice.

Thedas (and Kirkwall) as written, it should be impossible to be a PC mage unless you are a Grey Warden or otherwise have some other very special exemption, and the game completely ignores that.  That's criminal when the entire basis of the GAME is the treatment of mages.....

-Polaris

If you want a game that pays that attention to detail, go play BG or whatever other game you claim has that much attention.  If BioWare paid THAT much attention to the story, very few people would want to play a mage.  And the devs have already stated before that they "Do not want to punish players for playing a certain way".  If you were at risk of being dragged off to the circle at any given moment as a mage that would in a sense make some players feel they were being "punished" for playing a mage.  

If I had to hazard a guess, they knew that the inconsistencies w/ mage
Hawke would irk some players, but were so married to the storyline that
they took that risk.  It’s the height of irony that DA2 is such a lore
riddled game when its lore is rendered irrelevant by the game play. 
DA:O is just as guilty w/ a mage Warden using blood magic in front of Wynne and
she says nothing about it, but DA2 takes that absurdity to new levels. 
As the saying goes, there’s suspension of disbelief and then there’s
hanging it by the neck until dead.

[Demx]

The templars just forgot what the Order dictates. If Wesley wasn't injured or if Aveline wasn't there, you know he'd still fulfill his duty, because the spawn are clear with their intent. But a mage is always unknown.

[IanPolaris]

One minor point of disagreement. DAO is not as guilty. Technically a Grey Warden mage is allowed to use any magic (even bloodmagic) when defeating the darkspawn. Chantry law doesn't apply to a Grey Warden mage. The point is that at least in DAO, an explaination was attempted.

-Polaris

[FieryDove]

JamieCOTC wrote...

If I had to hazard a guess, they knew that the inconsistencies w/ mage
Hawke would irk some players, but were so married to the storyline that
they took that risk.  It’s the height of irony that DA2 is such a lore
riddled game when its lore is rendered irrelevant by the game play. 
DA:O is just as guilty w/ a mage Warden using blood magic in front of Wynne and
she says nothing about it, but DA2 takes that absurdity to new levels. 
As the saying goes, there’s suspension of disbelief and then there’s
hanging it by the neck until dead.

Wynne did not like blood magic and calls you on it, but that was one of the many things cut.


There was stuff cut from DAO and probably more from DA2 that would have helped fill in blanks or at least did more to keep with lore. A shame companies are never allowed to release a bonus pack that restores unfinshed/cut work. Kotor2 would have been so much better and so would the DA games.

[Sajuro]

IanPolaris wrote...

One minor point of disagreement. DAO is not as guilty. Technically a Grey Warden mage is allowed to use any magic (even bloodmagic) when defeating the darkspawn. Chantry law doesn't apply to a Grey Warden mage. The point is that at least in DAO, an explaination was attempted.

-Polaris

But Grey Wardens were declared fugitives in Dragon Age: Origins, thus
the Grey Warden rule could be exempted if a Templar wanted to take the
Warden in, but the ones in the circle didn't attempt to keep the Mage
Grey Warden there because they knew they had bigger problems, even if
the warden was using blood magic a few feet away from them. The way I
see it is that when templars see Hawke using magic, it is when Hawke is
saving their butts or killing them. The Templars you save from
abominations or criminals are grateful enough to overlook the fact that
you are a mage since you don't seem to be one of the bad ones. The ones
you murder aren't going to have much to say about it in a few minutes.
As for using blood magic, they just might not have noticed.

[monroebradshaw]

If we just had the option to become an arcane warrior it would fix up this mess. You could totally blend in. I actually liked DA2 but no option to become a arcane warrior flustered me more than the other screw ups.

[Aradace]

monroebradshaw wrote...

If we just had the option to become an arcane warrior it would fix up this mess. You could totally blend in. I actually liked DA2 but no option to become a arcane warrior flustered me more than the other screw ups.

While I truly do miss my Arcane Warrior, I think the way the Mage class is now more than makes up for it IMO.  With the way the system currently is, I dont think they could even "re-implement" it in a future expansion or whatnot without overhauling the combat system.  I could, of course, be wrong on that because I am faaaaaaaar from being "tech savvy" lol. 

[RangerSG]

Sajuro wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

One minor point of disagreement. DAO is not as guilty. Technically a Grey Warden mage is allowed to use any magic (even bloodmagic) when defeating the darkspawn. Chantry law doesn't apply to a Grey Warden mage. The point is that at least in DAO, an explaination was attempted.

-Polaris

But Grey Wardens were declared fugitives in Dragon Age: Origins, thus
the Grey Warden rule could be exempted if a Templar wanted to take the
Warden in, but the ones in the circle didn't attempt to keep the Mage
Grey Warden there because they knew they had bigger problems, even if
the warden was using blood magic a few feet away from them. The way I
see it is that when templars see Hawke using magic, it is when Hawke is
saving their butts or killing them. The Templars you save from
abominations or criminals are grateful enough to overlook the fact that
you are a mage since you don't seem to be one of the bad ones. The ones
you murder aren't going to have much to say about it in a few minutes.
As for using blood magic, they just might not have noticed.

Erm, only Loghain loyalists believed the Gray Warden line in Origin, so pushing that as an argument is far-fetched.

That said, I've said before that I think some people are screaming far louder about the mage thing than they have reason to. By Act 2, you know whose palms to grease and you have the coin to do it and a friend in Varric to help. In Act 1, you're virtually a non-person, easy to blend into the crowd, and probably have residual grease from your previous employer too. Also from the scene where Varric tells his Hawke story in front of you, it's pretty clear that whatever your class, he portrays Hawke as a beefy warrior to the crowds. Perception trumps reality with the masses.

If the Cullen scene *really* annoys a player, don't use offensive spells. He wouldn't notice buffs/heals in the middle of a battle. Doubtful he'd even note telekinetic spells like mind blast. Even then, he's pretty distracted, what with being in the middle of 5 fade creatures and all. A judicious attack spell isn't likely to get seen.

I won't argue there's some lore/gameplay segregation. But not nearly as much as most protestors make it out to be.

[LobselVith8]

Sajuro wrote...

But Grey Wardens were declared fugitives in Dragon Age: Origins, thus the Grey Warden rule could be exempted if a Templar wanted to take the Warden in, but the ones in the circle didn't attempt to keep the Mage Grey Warden there because they knew they had bigger problems, even if the warden was using blood magic a few feet away from them. The way I see it is that when templars see Hawke using magic, it is when Hawke is saving their butts or killing them. The Templars you save from abominations or criminals are grateful enough to overlook the fact that you are a mage since you don't seem to be one of the bad ones. The ones you murder aren't going to have much to say about it in a few minutes. As for using blood magic, they just might not have noticed.

Wynne revealed to Irving what really happened at Ostagar with Loghain, and I don't see Greagoir trying to involve himself in politics the way Meredith did by trying to deal with The Warden, regardless of whether he believed in what Loghain said or not.  The scene that was mentioned above had Wynne demanding to know what type of magic was being used by The Warden (which was blood magic) since she didn't recognize it, but The Warden can lie and say it's "Grey Warden magic," but the scene was disabled because it bugged the Landsmeet (and still does if it's activated by a mod).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Most of the immersion issues, if not indeed all, can be attributed to bad rolepalyers. If they find it immersion breaking to cast a spell in front of a Templar without reaction, perhaps they should think about what they are doing. No apostate would ever chuck a spell right in front of a Templar. So if anyone are complaining about immersion breaking, they should start by pointing the figner at themselves.

(and the scene with Wynne and Blood Magic isn't lore, even though it is reasonable to say, that it is how she would have reacted)

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Most of the immersion issues, if not indeed all, can be attributed to bad rolepalyers. If they find it immersion breaking to cast a spell in front of a Templar without reaction, perhaps they should think about what they are doing. No apostate would ever chuck a spell right in front of a Templar. So if anyone are complaining about immersion breaking, they should start by pointing the figner at themselves.

(and the scene with Wynne and Blood Magic isn't lore, even though it is reasonable to say, that it is how she would have reacted)

So it's the players fault that the developers designed the game to ignore that Hawke is an apostate? You're wrong. It can be attributed to the developers having an apostate protagonist and his apostate companions casting spells in front of guards and templars, it's not the fault of the players for recognizing the laziness of the developers for not doing a better job in making the game.

And that scene was disabled precisely because it bugged the Landsmeet. Claiming that what's said goes against canon is like claiming that Jowan's Intention isn't canon simply because the developers were too lazy to correct the bugged quest.