91 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

I do. Remember that Meredith rules the Templars with an Iron Hand and tends to select and promote Templars that are just as uncompromising as she is (see Cullen codex entry). Given that, I don't see any templars beyonds a mere handful of exceptions that would give an apostate ANY slack, even if that apostate saved their life. Cullen certainly shouldn't given his character.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Cullen doesn't even realize you ARE a mage even after you literally shoot fireballs from your fingertips not an hour before in his infamous, "Mages aren't like you and me speech."

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

And we have already given a possible explanation for why he doesn't realize Hawke is a mage in that case. He does however later tell Hawke that he has heard disturbing rumors about him, and that he hopes they aren't true.

[Raygereio]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And we have already given a possible explanation for why he doesn't realize Hawke is a mage in that case. He does however later tell Hawke that he has heard disturbing rumors about him, and that he hopes they aren't true.

You'll have to admit it's a really flimsy explanation. Yes combat is a hectic afair, but even then one has to be an utter idiot to not pay at least a little bit attention to the people you don't know who are comming to your aid to make sure they're really comming to your aid and not stabbing you in the back. Even if Cullen might think that the fireball I threw might have come from a demon, the fact that I'm doing pew-pew-things with my staff should have set of every single Templar-alert in Cullen's head.
As for the rumors; if that's all the templars have heard about Hawke - a person who has become well known in Kirkwall - after he has cleared out the streets from thugs through fire rain and even defeated a bunch of demons in the chantry in broad daylight through magic, then they are unbelievably incompetent and one has to wonder if they're able to track down their own arses, let alone a mage.

A better question would be why people are trying to rationalise gameplay & story segregation. You never do that, you fools! It only leads to headaches, flames and the dark side. The next thing you know dogs will be livving with cats. Madness!

Modifié par Raygereio, 23 juin 2011 - 10:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not really all that flimsy. Cullen will notice that the four humans are fighting the demons alongside him, after having noticed that, he would probably return his focus to the demon trying to tear of his head.
And isn't the demons in the Chantry in act 2? At which point Hawke has already accumulated enough influence to et some leash.

And most of us have already pointed out that it is a gameplay vs. story arguement, however some people are just determined to be dissatisfied by everything DA2 offered, because it didn't give them exactly what they wanted. So we have to try and explain it to them on a story level, even though it isn't such an issue.

[Raygereio]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And isn't the demons in the Chantry in act 2? At which point Hawke has already accumulated enough influence to et some leash.

Even that's a contradiction. No one is supposed to be save from the Templars; no matter what influence you wield or how much money you have. 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
some people are just determined to be dissatisfied by everything DA2 offered, because it didn't give them exactly what they wanted. So we have to try and explain it to them on a story level, even though it isn't such an issue

Some people just like a story that makes sense, can't fault them for that.
That and it can be fun to nitpick things like this and see what whacky explanations people will come up with to excuse it. ^_0

Modifié par Raygereio, 23 juin 2011 - 10:45 .

[Wulfram]

I like the game, but using magic to save Cullen is stupid, as is the opening fight in the gallows. Some gameplay/story segregation can be allowed, but those are too big and blatant for me to handwave.

I also wish they'd made more of Hawke's apostate status generally. If they'd had a more concrete threat in Act 1, like blackmail from a corrupt Templar, to force them to go on the Deep Roads expedition, that would have helped.

[Sajuro]

IanPolaris wrote...

I do. Remember that Meredith rules the Templars with an Iron Hand and tends to select and promote Templars that are just as uncompromising as she is (see Cullen codex entry). Given that, I don't see any templars beyonds a mere handful of exceptions that would give an apostate ANY slack, even if that apostate saved their life. Cullen certainly shouldn't given his character.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Cullen doesn't even realize you ARE a mage even after you literally shoot fireballs from your fingertips not an hour before in his infamous, "Mages aren't like you and me speech."

Then apparently we didn't meet all of those zealot templars where magic would have been thrown about, the only example I can remember is at the end of 'Act of Mercy' when that guy with his group of Templars confronts Thrask outside of the cave, and you do not get a chance to show him what you can do with a fireball unless you attack him and then he is good and dead by the time you are finished with him if that is the case.

As I pointed out before, we only meet a few Templars out of the entire Kirkwall Order and I do not think the Mage Oppression in Kirkwall got as bad as everyone thinks it is until Act 3 when Meredith had Soul Edge for a sword, which is also when all mages began using blood magic.

By that point Hawke is the champion and beloved by the nobility for saving them. If that wasn't enough, Hawke has proven strong enough to take on small armies with the help of his allies and charismatic enough to earn the respect of an elf who hates mages even if he is a blood mage. Sending Templars to bring Hawke end would only end up with Hawke selling the armor he got off of the dead templars. We saw how Hawke dealt with Meredith when she was crazy and super powered so I think that Hawke could have taken Meredith and her goon squad on.

[RangerSG]

Raygereio wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And we have already given a possible explanation for why he doesn't realize Hawke is a mage in that case. He does however later tell Hawke that he has heard disturbing rumors about him, and that he hopes they aren't true.

You'll have to admit it's a really flimsy explanation. Yes combat is a hectic afair, but even then one has to be an utter idiot to not pay at least a little bit attention to the people you don't know who are comming to your aid to make sure they're really comming to your aid and not stabbing you in the back. Even if Cullen might think that the fireball I threw might have come from a demon, the fact that I'm doing pew-pew-things with my staff should have set of every single Templar-alert in Cullen's head.
As for the rumors; if that's all the templars have heard about Hawke - a person who has become well known in Kirkwall - after he has cleared out the streets from thugs through fire rain and even defeated a bunch of demons in the chantry in broad daylight through magic, then they are unbelievably incompetent and one has to wonder if they're able to track down their own arses, let alone a mage.

A better question would be why people are trying to rationalise gameplay & story segregation. You never do that, you fools! It only leads to headaches, flames and the dark side. The next thing you know dogs will be livving with cats. Madness!

No, I don't think that's a "flimsy" explanation. You're back to assuming a staff is a mage-only weapon. That's untrue. Typical peasant weapon, and YOU are making a gameplay= lore assertion by claiming otherwise.

Varric tells stories about Hawke (even as a mage) tearing doors off hinges with his/her bare hands, regardless of class. So it's 'very' doubtful that the ordinary person in Kirkwall thinks that apostate throwing spells around is Hawke, since every Hawke story that gets told is Hawke is 7' tall and can tear an ogre's head off!

By the time people realize what Hawke is, it's too late to change things.

And Templars aren't stormtroopers. Some become lyrium addicts, others worse. Saying they can't be bribed when we see all sorts of other excesses and vices from them seems just as implausible to me as I'm sure the Cullen argument looks to others.

I won't argue that there OUGHT to have been elements of blackmail or threats toward a mage Hawke. And I agree things are implicit that could and should have been stated. But it's not nearly as dramatic a gap as some make it out to be.

[Raygereio]

RangerSG wrote...
I won't argue that there OUGHT to have been elements of blackmail or threats toward a mage Hawke. And I agree things are implicit that could and should have been stated. But it's not nearly as dramatic a gap as some make it out to be.

They had a solid justification for why a mage could run around willy-nilly in DA:O. There simply isn't such a justification in DA2. Now you don't feel it's a major problem, neither do I to be really honest. Why? Because I like to play the magic user and if DA2 were to adhere to it's own setting and lore that would have been a frustrating afair. That and there are worst problems in DA2's writing to be annoyed about.
Though I personally feel one can place blame at the writers' feet for putting themselves in a situation where they can't write themselves out of and have to handwave things in the first place. It's generally a good practice to avoid situations like that (*glares at ME2*).

Oh, and when it comes to whacky explanations:

RangerSG wrote...
No, I don't think that's a "flimsy" explanation. You're back to assuming a staff is a mage-only weapon. That's untrue. Typical peasant weapon, and YOU are making a gameplay= lore assertion by claiming otherwise.

So your typical peasant has a staff that can go pew-pew with little fireballs, snowballs, or <insert energy type here>? Well, that's certainly news to me.

Modifié par Raygereio, 24 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Your typical peasant had a staff he could bash your skull in with. A mage uses a staff too, but he channels magical power through it. But the staff on its own, does not neccesarily mean: mage.

[Raygereio]

Guy with staff who's bashing the staff over the head of the guy he's fighting == random dude.
Guy with staff who's projecting little balls of energy from the tip of the staff towards to guy he's fighting == mage.

If you can't follow that simple logic, then don't worry; we can still be friends. But I'm afraid I won't offer you a cookie when you come over for coffee.

Modifié par Raygereio, 25 juin 2011 - 11:51 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

the staff a mage would use and the pole a warrior would use are two very different things and most often look completely different

[EmperorSahlertz]

Raygereio wrote...

Guy with staff who's bashing the staff over the head of the guy he's fighting == random dude.
Guy with staff who's projecting little balls of energy from the tip of the staff towards to guy he's fighting == mage.

If you can't follow that simple logic, then don't worry; we can still be friends. But I'm afraid I won't offer you a cookie when you come over for coffee.

We weren't talking about the use of the staff. We were talking about a man standing with a staff. If you can't follow that logic, pehaps you shouldn't be on this forum. Simply put, a staff is by itself not a sign of a mage. Do try and warp your head around that.

[Raygereio]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We weren't talking about the use of the staff.

Yes we are actually. Cullen and Hawke are a combat situation together mere moments after meeting eachother for the first time. The use of the staff is some rather big importance in this regards.

[nightscrawl]

While I do think that Bioware missed out on the opportunity to provide some interesting scenes for Mage Hawke, it should be noted that templars aren't the most scrupulous bunch. Not only can your merc/smuggler buddies keep you from their official notice for a year (with bribes I assume), but templars also have lyrium smuggled in for their own addiction.

So, here is how you can look at it:

* Year 1: Mercenary or smuggler bribe templars and keep you out of the gallows.
* Act 1: Perhaps some of the residual effect from the bribes remains, long enough for you to do what you need to do.
* Act 2: You have gained considerable wealth and had previously assisted the templars with a very serious problem. You now move in higher social circles and have influence in Kirkwall through that. It would be noticed if you were suddenly hauled off to the Gallows.
* Act 3: Well, you're now the Champion.

Raygereio wrote...

You'll have to admit it's a really flimsy explanation. Yes combat is a hectic afair, but even then one has to be an utter idiot to not pay at least a little bit attention to the people you don't know who are comming to your aid to make sure they're really comming to your aid and not stabbing you in the back. Even if Cullen might think that the fireball I threw might have come from a demon, the fact that I'm doing pew-pew-things with my staff should have set of every single Templar-alert in Cullen's head.

That scene is in direct contrast to Fenris post-mansion. The very first words out of his mouth are that he thought he had finally escaped, only to find himself in the company of "yet another mage." Then he says "I saw you casting spells inside."

Yes yes, I know Fenris hates mages and all that, but his reasons for noticing a mage certainly don't exceed a templar, who is trained for it.

Bottom line: Cullen is a bad templar. The way it's written at any rate. There should have been some lines in at some point. That would have made this entire thread moot.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 juin 2011 - 12:33 .

[DPSSOC]

Lowsy internet going down, this is from a while back

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Most of the immersion issues, if not indeed all, can be attributed to bad rolepalyers. If they find it immersion breaking to cast a spell in front of a Templar without reaction, perhaps they should think about what they are doing. No apostate would ever chuck a spell right in front of a Templar. So if anyone are complaining about immersion breaking, they should start by pointing the figner at themselves.

The problem with this idea is that, for the player, the only way to not fling spells is to not get involved in combat. Even if you close to melee range with your staff it's still quite the display. So the only way for a good roleplayer to avoid casting spells in front of Templars is to just let their companions do all the fighting in those situations or resort to head-canon.

Also we have Wesley and Fenris who both recognize mages in the party and comment on it. You're telling me Bioware couldn't do 3 more of those for Cullen, Thrask, and Kerran the only Templars who can see you and your companions wield magic before you have the money to keep them off your back.

Bioware goes to a lot of trouble in this game to illustrate the dangers of being a mage (let alone an apostate) in Kirkwall but fail to convey any sense of it to a mage player. Now you don't need to inconvenience the player at all to do this, but it does need to be done. Idea off the top of my head is have a few Templars wandering through the districts of the city with passing dialogue mentioning that their looking for an apostate as a result of Hawke's activities (not by name of course). As Act 1 goes on there are more and more of them in Lowtown giving the player the impression that the Templars are getting close.

[clck]

In Act 2, after Anders quest Dissension, you can confront Cullen in the Gallows with Ser Alrik's papers.  If Anders is in your group, Cullen and Anders get into a heated debate about the tranquill solution. It ends with Cullen calling Anders a mage.  Then you walk away, after you incriminated your self in Ser Alrik's murder. Does Not Compute!