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[Dane Seagal]

For game purposes, yes. Some were less than thrilled about the revival plot but I enjoyed it. This isn't about what works for the story, but looking at TIM's motive for the Lazarus Project.

Shepard raises a good question asking why TIM didn't create an army with the credits he instead spent on Shepard. Let's say you are TIM, or someone in a similar situation. You can put all your efforts into reviving one superb soldier, who is a renowned hero and an excellent leader, or you can put your efforts into raising an army. What's the better option?

[Nightwriter]

An army, no question. Whatever symbolic power Shepard used to have was lost when the Alliance dragged his name through the mud and the Council decided he was a crackpot. He was reduced to nothing more than a capable leader, but there are many capable leaders in the galaxy.

[Dane Seagal]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Oh... we aren't to criticize the story in this thread. Well then, I agree it doesn't make much sense. If TIM had played up on the fact that Shepard had the cipher and had seen the visions then I'd agree that bringing him back might be worth it. However I don't see any indication any of that will ever be relevant to the story again.... so I don't think they're going in that direction.

Honestly in ME2 Shepard didn't do anything that another skilled commando and good leader couldn't have done. Hell, with Miranda, Jacob, Zaeed, Kasumi, Mordin, and a bunch of Cerberus' best commandos they probably could have successfully completed the mission.

True. But would it be better in the long run? Hard to say.

Thinking about it, perhaps it is more about symbolism than strategy for TIM (not that the two are mutually exclusive). I guess he wanted that 'one man' who makes all of humanity look good (which is facetious thinking, but not unrealistic per se) or better in comparison to the rest of the galaxy. What looks better, human terrorist group saves the galaxy or Saviour of the Citadel saves the galaxy?

[Smeelia]

Dane Seagal wrote...

What looks better, human terrorist group saves the galaxy or Saviour of the Citadel saves the galaxy?

I'd go with "human terrorist group", letting Shepard take credit means it can be moved away from Cerberus (especially if Shepard tries to keep a distance from Cerberus).

Saphra Deden wrote...

If TIM had played up on the fact that Shepard had the cipher and had seen the visions then I'd agree that bringing him back might be worth it.

This might have been a good excuse, it'd still be a risk though since there's no guarantee any of that would survive (plus it was pretty much "used up" when you found Ilos).

The only other reason I can think of off the top of my head is that Project Lazarus was intended to go ahead before they decided to use Shepard in it and/or the results were to be used for something else.

[Dane Seagal]

Smeelia wrote...

Dane Seagal wrote...

What looks better, human terrorist group saves the galaxy or Saviour of the Citadel saves the galaxy?

I'd go with "human terrorist group", letting Shepard take credit means it can be moved away from Cerberus (especially if Shepard tries to keep a distance from Cerberus).

Saphra Deden wrote...

If TIM had played up on the fact that Shepard had the cipher and had seen the visions then I'd agree that bringing him back might be worth it.

This might have been a good excuse, it'd still be a risk though since there's no guarantee any of that would survive (plus it was pretty much "used up" when you found Ilos).

The only other reason I can think of off the top of my head is that Project Lazarus was intended to go ahead before they decided to use Shepard in it and/or the results were to be used for something else.

It's also a huge medical achievement. They effectively brought back a dead person. Spending a huge amount of time and resources on reviving one person may not help the fight against the Reapers, but it certainly makes humanity look good.

[Dane Seagal]

Or maybe TIM is just insane.

Modifié par Dane Seagal, 19 juin 2011 - 09:24 .

[Nightwriter]

Dane Seagal wrote...

Thinking about it, perhaps it is more about symbolism than strategy for TIM (not that the two are mutually exclusive). I guess he wanted that 'one man' who makes all of humanity look good (which is facetious thinking, but not unrealistic per se) or better in comparison to the rest of the galaxy. What looks better, human terrorist group saves the galaxy or Saviour of the Citadel saves the galaxy?

You didn't save the galaxy, you saved some remote human colonies that don't even belong to the Alliance.

TIM strikes me as a practical man, and resurrecting Shepard was not a practical move. He could've invested those resources into ships, technology, and reconnaissance. He could've put GARDIAN turrets like the ones on Horizon on every human Terminus colony.

[Nightwriter]

Smeelia wrote...

This might have been a good excuse, it'd still be a risk though since there's no guarantee any of that would survive (plus it was pretty much "used up" when you found Ilos).

Shepard has complete knowledge of Prothean culture, their language, their very state of being. The Collectors are Protheans. I think there are many ways the story could've used that to its advantage.

We know TIM has access to Reaper technology. He could've modified Shepard's body somewhat so that Shepard can tap into the Collectors' minds. Imagine the opening of the game being you, controlling a Collector as it moves through Freedom's Progress, picking up frozen children and colonists and stuffing them into pods. When it is over Shepard wakes up panting, as if from a dream.

[Raven4030]

Actually, if you think about it, although his name was dragged through the mud the fact of the matter is Shephard is STILL a powerful symbol. He saved the citadel, killed who was then the best Spectre agent in the galaxy, his ship delivered the killing blow on Sovereign, not to mention the heroics that got him into the spectres in the first place.

He is an icon, heck, Conrad Verner might seem like an obsessed fan but I'm willing to bet money that after the Citadel heroics you'll be able to find people who make Conrad look tame by comparison (there might even be a few cults claiming Shephard is divinity, lesser people have gotten cults dedicated to them IRL).

That being said, the most likely reason for investing as much as he did was after the first billion TIM fell into the same trap most people do with investments: "If I back out now then all that money was wasted," you know, the same logic that keeps countries in warzones longer than they have to or causes people to continue investing into maintaining a car they should have replaced a long time ago.

[Smeelia]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard has complete knowledge of Prothean culture, their language, their very state of being. The Collectors are Protheans. I think there are many ways the story could've used that to its advantage.

We know TIM has access to Reaper technology. He could've modified Shepard's body somewhat so that Shepard can tap into the Collectors' minds. Imagine the opening of the game being you, controlling a Collector as it moves through Freedom's Progress, picking up frozen children and colonists and stuffing them into pods. When it is over Shepard wakes up panting, as if from a dream.

They only found out after the Collector Ship mission though (although maybe they suspected before) but you're right that they could use it for other parts of the story.  They'd need a specific reason to think that it would be useful before investing so heavily to get it back, of course it's possible that they did have a reason and we don't know what it is yet.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Here's a better idea: don't take credit for it. Don't let anybody even know you did it. Like with the batarian plague.

Here's another idea: stop plastering your logo on everything.

I know I know... Cord-Hislop. Still.

Well, taking credit for saving the galaxy doesn't seem like a bad idea.  I suppose they'd want to keep the base though and they wouldn't actually have saved the galaxy by the end of ME2 (Shepard hasn't either) so keeping the whole business secret does make sense.

Modifié par Smeelia, 19 juin 2011 - 09:42 .

[Raven4030]

Disregard this post

Modifié par Raven4030, 19 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[Nightwriter]

Raven4030 wrote...

Actually, if you think about it, although his name was dragged through the mud the fact of the matter is Shephard is STILL a powerful symbol. He saved the citadel, killed who was then the best Spectre agent in the galaxy, his ship delivered the killing blow on Sovereign, not to mention the heroics that got him into the spectres in the first place.

In the game's opening, it is stated that Shepard has the ear of the Council and the larger galaxy. TIM says, "So we can't lose him."

By the time Shepard is resurrected, he no longer has anyone's ear, and thus has lost the only thing that really made him uniquely useful.

[Raven4030]

So you're saying that the council is the ultimate authority on what is or is not a symbol? Politicians have tried to dictate the symbols and heroes of people for years and I doubt that will change over 200 years.

Shephard's strength as a symbol is not in his political pull, but in his ability to command loyalty. TIM could have trained an army for what he used to bring Shephard back, but Shephard himself could command a horde.

EDIT: Admittedly though, it is more likely that TIM fell into the same logical trap we all do after we put in a significant investment and need to invest more: "If I don't then I wasted all that time and all those resources".

Modifié par Raven4030, 19 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[Nightwriter]

Not at all. I'm saying that the original reason TIM submitted for Shepard's importance was that he had a lot of sway in the galaxy now that he had saved the Citadel. Yet by the time Shepard is resurrected, he no longer has any sway. The ability to command loyalty is not unique, and not worth four billion credits.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[Raven4030]

The ability to command loyalty is rare, the ability to command loyalty across all species and various backgrounds (mercenaries, thugs, scientists, cops, thieves, sentient machines, engineers, etc., in addition to common soldiers) and get them to work together in a cohesive unit capable of fighting off numerically and technologically superior foes? That IS unique.

However, for the third time: THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO is that TIM fell into the logical trap where you think that if you pull out you've wasted that investment so you keep investing. He probably didn't go in expecting to drop 4 billion credits.

[Nightwriter]

I must disagree. I know we'd like to think that no one in the galaxy can command loyalty like Shepard, and that THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE, but the truth is that there are a lot of great leaders out there, some of which we've even met in the game. And yes, they probably can command loyalty even with a racially diverse team. I doubt racial diversity is such a revolutionary concept to non-humanoids, anyway.

However, for the third time: THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO is that TIM fell into the logical trap where you think that if you pull out you've wasted that investment so you keep investing. He probably didn't go in expecting to drop 4 billion credits.

It's certainly possible, of course. But I sort of feel this is just an attempt to make excuses for a writing inconsistency, since there's no mention of it in-game. Which I can understand. I just don't really know why TIM even decided to resurrect Shepard in the first place -- and he had to know how expensive it would be. I'd prefer they give me a better reason than, "You're the protagonist," or, "Well I realized it was a mistake halfway through, but I was already invested."

[Raven4030]

He knew it'd be expensive sure, but if you remember in the first mission, one of the logs has Wilson saying 'nobody seems to care we've gone way overbudget', this indicates to me TIM didn't realize the expense, otherwise he would have budgetted more for the project.

As far as command ability, there are great leaders out there, but the fact of the matter is there are some things we have to accept as a consequence of this being a story. And if Shephard was doing something any regular leader could accomplish, this would be a pretty dull story.

As far as writing inconsistency, I'll admit it might exist but truth be told this whole topic is very, VERY nitpicky so I wouldn't blame the writers if this was a detail they simply overlooked.

Modifié par Raven4030, 19 juin 2011 - 10:47 .

[Nightwriter]

That's very true, Wilson does say that in the logs. But what I am saying is that whatever budget TIM originally assigned to the project still baffles me, because I can't understand why he'd waste even one billion credits on the resurrection of one person.

What you're saying is that this is an example of an Acceptable Break From Reality. That's another argument, and a valid one. But I think it could've been avoided with a few tweaks.

The topic's not that nitpicky. It's discussing the entire premise of the game.

[CaptainZaysh]

TIM didn't just buy Shepard, though. He bought Lazarus; he bought immortality. That's not a bad return on a 4bn investment. Pharma companies today typically spend $800m-2bn developing an individual drug.

[SandTrout]

It was a good investment for the following reason: Once the Reapers hit, credits are going to mean all of Jack and Chit. The mercenaries that Cerberus could have hired to fight the Reapers will be hired by the various factions in any case, once the Reapers do arrive.

So, instead of spending money that is soon to be worthless on soldier that are going to fight anyways, TIM invested in bringing back one of the best soldiers and combat leaders of the time period. One that, without TIM's intervention, would not have been dead by the time of the Reapers' arrival. This one soldier also has enough pull as a symbol to potentially unify the various factions, something that Cerberus cannot do.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dane Seagal wrote...

True. But would it be better in the long run? Hard to say.

Why wouldn't it be? I'd rather have an army than one badass commando. Shepard is just one man. The only reason he is important anymore is because he is the protagonist.

You don't spend that kind of money, time, and effort on "symbolism".

You do sometimes, it is called advertizing and advertizing campaign budgets can run rather high. But to spend that kind of money and promptly misuse and undermine Shepard's good will seems very questionable. There are only a couple arguements in favour that I can think of:

1) Shepard was needed to recruit Mordin, who did turn out to be essential.

2) The Reapers were already influencing TIM and for some reason wanted Shepard alive, or at least that is what the influence led TIM to achieve intended or not.

3) Shepard was a prototype. It is not a given that subsequent applications of Lazarus would cost as much and it seems really unlikely that TIM wouldn't have extracted data from the base before it blew. Miranda definately had time to start a data upload to the shuttle if not her datapad.