59 réponses à ce sujet

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You don't spend that kind of money, time, and effort on "symbolism".

At the risk of sounding political (I'm not), look at the amount of time, effort and money the US wasted changing all those menus from saying "French Fries" and "French Toast" to "Freedom Fried" and "Freedom Toast".
The higher up the food chain you are, the more you tend to spend on symbolism, as its a very handy way of diverting attention away from what you are actually doing.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@OP, I thought it was great... though I'm also glad I heard about it beforehand... otherwise I may not have taken to it as nicely.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 20 juin 2011 - 04:10 .

[Osiris273]

Or maybe, TIM didn't want Shepard's body fall into the collectors' hand, after he acquired his body, he thought there's no point of keeping his body around, so he came up with an idea to put Shepard to good use.

[CaptainZaysh]

Moiaussi wrote...

1) Shepard was needed to recruit Mordin, who did turn out to be essential.

I don't think that's accurate.  Mordin seemed perfectly happy to work for Cerberus, and I think even said he was honoured to be part of the mission.  Doesn't sound like Shepard's presence made much difference there.  TIM himself would probably have been equally (or more) persuasive.

Moiaussi wrote...
2) The Reapers were already influencing TIM and for some reason wanted Shepard alive, or at least that is what the influence led TIM to achieve intended or not.

Doesn't make sense though.  If TIM were working for the Reapers, why steal Shep's body from the Collectors, and then arrange their destruction?

Moiaussi wrote...
3) Shepard was a prototype. It is not a given that subsequent applications of Lazarus would cost as much and it seems really unlikely that TIM wouldn't have extracted data from the base before it blew. Miranda definately had time to start a data upload to the shuttle if not her datapad.

This is the one, I think.

[Sebby]

That only squadmate that would been problematic to recruit without Shepard would have been Tali. The rest don't seem to care all that much about Cerberus one way or another.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Honestly, I would have less of a qualm with it if the execution they used did not lead to plotholes or stupid logic. I needn't reiterate the tireless debate of Shepard's body not be able to survive and therefore his brain not being retained however it is where all the issues stem. There is no effort made to provide exposition to the aforementioned. What I found particularly annoying is how irrelevant death was rendered. All BioWare seemed keen on using it for were off handed one liners and a cheap means for the mechanics to influence the story.

Where it became egregious is the rationality implied in the game. Shepard should be the last person Cerberus wants alive based on events of Mass Effect. Even excluding that by way of their moral ambiguity. TIM has no actual objective when Shepard is revived. The only information available is human colonies are being abducted and his hypothesis is the Reapers are involved. This alone is a partial stretch of logic but concluding defying death is necessary is simply idiocy. Worse is there is nothing to remotely insinuate Miranda and Jacob were not capable of handling the mission on their own. They might not have recruited the same group but would have had alternatives. Actually, on second thought, look at the motivations of the cast...

Mordin - Test his scientific capabilities.
Samara - Her code compelled her to prevent injustice
Grunt - Likes to kill stuff
Zaeed - Money
Kasumi - Money
Legion - Stop heretic geth
Thane - Has a death wish
Garrus - Rescued after almost being killed

Yes, even Garrus could theoretically be recruited by Miranda and Jacob since he would owe them his life. Jack is feasible, albeit a slight stretch while Tali is the only one who is liable to not join whatsoever. Add to the fact TIM could have "hired an army" and we have replacements covered if Grunt, Garrus and whoever weren't up for the trip.

Just went I am certain they could not beat this rubbish any further. Out pops the supposed indoctrination concept, where TIM is a product of the Reapers. So the Reapers resurrected their greatest nemesis... for no adequately logical reason? Ugh...

No, I do not like the revival arc. It was horribly executed, devoid of depth and instead used as a gimmick. Hopefully that last tidbit remains a rumor.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 20 juin 2011 - 03:47 .

[Commander_Adept]

I think the main point of doing the resurrection was to introduce Reaper technology into Shepard's body, which will help to bring down the Reapers in some way.

It happening at the beginning of Mass 2 just means that you slightly forget about it by the time it's ready to happen and you're like "Oh! That's awesome!" True story

And I just get the nagging feeling that Cerberus isn't REALLY the enemy in 3. I think that they're on Shepard's side all along, and it's possible that they're field testing him at the expense of their own just to prepare even more for the Reaper battles. Perhaps Cerberus gained intel while aboard the derelict reaper that shows what Reaper ground troops will be like (See: The Batarian Husk, etc) and they're wanting to get him fully prepared for everything involved.

So therefore: Shepard dies due to Reapers having Collectors. Cerberus revives him from death, fully intact with some Reaper stuff (that they got from the Derelict Reaper), stuff that they know would be able to bring down a fleet. Perhaps in an Overlord type scenario- Where Shepard gets into one of those big machines like David (I think that was his name...) was in and can control all the machines (AKA Reapers) that is under that machine (AKA Harbinger)'s direct control. I'm guessing that there's a kind of failsafe installed into each Reaper that would (In the unlikely event that the leader Reaper dies) direct them to who the new leader would be. Cerberus, having found this failsafe, would install a similar one into Shepard and edit the programming in such a slight way that he would become the next leader, having been unquestioned. Then the Reapers would likely listen to whatever Shepard said, unknowing that he wasn't an actual Reaper. It'll be like the end of LotSB, how with use of the intercom voice changer, everyone believes Liara to be the same Broker as before. This may be some foreshadowing, we'll see. I like this theory.

Modifié par Commander_Adept, 20 juin 2011 - 03:59 .

[Dane Seagal]

From a story perspective, I can why it was done this way and I actually like the way it was done. But the post was about what you would've done, or what TIM should've done.

[Admiral Awsome]

Commander_Adept wrote...

I think the main point of doing the resurrection was to introduce Reaper technology into Shepard's body, which will help to bring down the Reapers in some way.

It happening at the beginning of Mass 2 just means that you slightly forget about it by the time it's ready to happen and you're like "Oh! That's awesome!" True story

And I just get the nagging feeling that Cerberus isn't REALLY the enemy in 3. I think that they're on Shepard's side all along, and it's possible that they're field testing him at the expense of their own just to prepare even more for the Reaper battles. Perhaps Cerberus gained intel while aboard the derelict reaper that shows what Reaper ground troops will be like (See: The Batarian Husk, etc) and they're wanting to get him fully prepared for everything involved.

So therefore: Shepard dies due to Reapers having Collectors. Cerberus revives him from death, fully intact with some Reaper stuff (that they got from the Derelict Reaper), stuff that they know would be able to bring down a fleet. Perhaps in an Overlord type scenario- Where Shepard gets into one of those big machines like David (I think that was his name...) was in and can control all the machines (AKA Reapers) that is under that machine (AKA Harbinger)'s direct control. I'm guessing that there's a kind of failsafe installed into each Reaper that would (In the unlikely event that the leader Reaper dies) direct them to who the new leader would be. Cerberus, having found this failsafe, would install a similar one into Shepard and edit the programming in such a slight way that he would become the next leader, having been unquestioned. Then the Reapers would likely listen to whatever Shepard said, unknowing that he wasn't an actual Reaper. It'll be like the end of LotSB, how with use of the intercom voice changer, everyone believes Liara to be the same Broker as before. This may be some foreshadowing, we'll see. I like this theory.

You don't need to have someone die to give them implants, Reaper or otherwise. That's what surgery is for. Resurrection should not have been done and didn't need to be used.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 21 juin 2011 - 09:07 .

[TheRevanchist]

I think aside from the obvious "reboot Shepard" mechanic they were trying to show that the threat is real...the enemy is indeed powerful and not to be underestimated. That even the almighty Commander Shepard can lose. in this is regard I feel they succeeded...at least at first. I think the event and implications itself was good and impressed me. But they lost me when they 1...failed to think of a GOOD reason for Shepard's return. 2...totaly failed at following up on The Collector's ominiusness that they established in the first 10 minutes. I feel they shoulda went Silent Hill 2 style with them. almost never seeing them, keep them as big of an unknown as the Reaper's themselves, encountering one or two throughout the game, like interupting a deal their making with the Blue Suns, freeing the contents of the deal. Make those one or two Collectors as powerful as possible without making them a suppose to lose fight.

Let them escape so you can't research the bodies, then one day you get lucky...and after a protracted battle you finally manage to kill one. You bring it's body aboard to see why the Seeker swarms avoid them. Of course the Normandy lacks the tech to figure out the "big reveal", which would be slowly hinted at throughout the game. Instead of a random Seeker, Mordin uses the corpse to find the solution to the Seeker Swarms. Maintain that ominiusness until Horizen, when you finally meet them in force. You make this encounter ludicrisly hard, even adding a timer that shows how much time you have until they take the whole colony.

The Collectors then go from being ominius to outright intimidateing and threatning. Once the GARDIAN towers go online have the Colletor Ship fire back in response with it's own GARDIAN system, it was far too pathetic as it just sat there taking it. Of course by this time the colony timer stops as all Collectors groundside are pretty much dead. Depending on your time affects the outcome and reactions of those in the game. add several more of these Colony Abduction mission's, but of course make them optional.

Similar with the Colletor Ship mission, which of course includes the "big reveal" (which personally...I was still shocked as hell and freaked out).

The Derelict Reaper should of had Sauron like whispers bother Shepard in the back of his mind. Whispers only he would hear due to his cybernetics and his overall exposure to Reaper rech at this point.

The Suicide Mission would be the most epic thing ever seen in video games. You take control of Normandy personally and engage in a dogfight with the Collector vessal, with the little ball things being the second line of defense that plays out like normal. Of course making it actually hard to keep everyone alive....Then we arrive at last to the Human Reaper. Like the death I realize the message they tried to send...it just didn't work in the follow up. I don't really have any ideas of how that situation could be improved since it don't have legs or anything.

Sorry for the totaly off topic rant...just poured out as I wrote about the opening sequence..

[Raven4030]

I think I'm going to point out the obvious here:

If they had just let Shephard die off and replace him with some other mook this entire thread would instead be dedicated to whining about the death of Shephard and wanting instead some convoluted resurrection story of some kind to bring him back, or just not have him get killed off in the first place.

At the end of the day, it's a story, and stories don't always make sense or work how they're supposed to in the real world. There are things that can destroy suspension of disbelief (particularly when they invent rules for why something can't be done then violate those same rules a few scenes later), this isn't one of them. Shephard dying and being brought back, as somebody mentioned before, does help to create a myth surrounding the man, turning him from just an incredibly capable leader (and I did make my argument about why he would be most capable) into a myth, a legend.

Furthermore: You're willing to accept the existence of a magical substance that can do everything from propelling massive dreadnaughts faster than the speed of light (given that one line where Ashley refers to 12 light-years as 'a day's cruise' in ME1: at least 4000 times faster than light speed) to giving random mooks the force, but not of a man who would be worth a resurrection project costing several billion credits?

[Moiaussi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I don't think that's accurate.  Mordin seemed perfectly happy to work for Cerberus, and I think even said he was honoured to be part of the mission.  Doesn't sound like Shepard's presence made much difference there.  TIM himself would probably have been equally (or more) persuasive.

Shepard lent credence to them though and gave Mordin less reason to question Cerberus' intent. We don't know if he would have reacted the same with someone else contacting him.

Doesn't make sense though.  If TIM were working for the Reapers, why steal Shep's body from the Collectors, and then arrange their destruction?

Indoctrination isn't overt mind control. It is subtle influence. They might not have been able to manage more than 'Shepard is important, acquire Shepard' and then later 'it is too risky to warn Shepard, send him into traps blind (unspoken: so we have the maximum chance to capture him).' Their influence isn't strong enough to get him to simply hand Shepard over.

Alternatively, they don't want TIM to do so lest he lose control of Cerberus, which they consider an asset.

This is the one, I think.

Definately a possiblility, albiet a very cheesy one. What is more of a cop out than the Terminus pirates being the same mercenaries we fought in ME1? The Reaper army consisting of Shepard lazaraus-clones.

[Dean_the_Young]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

TIM didn't just buy Shepard, though. He bought Lazarus; he bought immortality. That's not a bad return on a 4bn investment. Pharma companies today typically spend $800m-2bn developing an individual drug.

Infact, it may have already been used: in CDN, the Present of the United States of North America was technically dead for a year before 'new medical procedures' were able to restore him to health.

[Moiaussi]

Raven4030 wrote...

I think I'm going to point out the obvious here:

If they had just let Shephard die off and replace him with some other mook this entire thread would instead be dedicated to whining about the death of Shephard and wanting instead some convoluted resurrection story of some kind to bring him back, or just not have him get killed off in the first place.

At the end of the day, it's a story, and stories don't always make sense or work how they're supposed to in the real world. There are things that can destroy suspension of disbelief (particularly when they invent rules for why something can't be done then violate those same rules a few scenes later), this isn't one of them. Shephard dying and being brought back, as somebody mentioned before, does help to create a myth surrounding the man, turning him from just an incredibly capable leader (and I did make my argument about why he would be most capable) into a myth, a legend.

Furthermore: You're willing to accept the existence of a magical substance that can do everything from propelling massive dreadnaughts faster than the speed of light (given that one line where Ashley refers to 12 light-years as 'a day's cruise' in ME1: at least 4000 times faster than light speed) to giving random mooks the force, but not of a man who would be worth a resurrection project costing several billion credits?

You are forgetting that if we are talking about a 'from a story persepective', Shepard dieing in the first place was gratuitous. The Normandy was taken down by a larger ship that not only could see them, but that they inexplicably couldn't just disengage from.

And yes I know people have various explainations why they couldn't disengage, but there is nothing in game confirming any of that and the Codex outright states that such situations don't happen because the smaller force can always disengage except when they don't want to (usually because they have something they feel the need to defend).

This isn't a question of the technical existance of lazarus either, so the 'magical substance' arguement doesn't apply. Science Fiction or Fantasy is characterized by a setting that doesn't exist in reality. There is no magical substance in the game that would explain TIM feeling this was a good idea (other than possibly indoctrination).

[Commander_Adept]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Commander_Adept wrote...

I think the main point of doing the resurrection was to introduce Reaper technology into Shepard's body, which will help to bring down the Reapers in some way.

It happening at the beginning of Mass 2 just means that you slightly forget about it by the time it's ready to happen and you're like "Oh! That's awesome!" True story

And I just get the nagging feeling that Cerberus isn't REALLY the enemy in 3. I think that they're on Shepard's side all along, and it's possible that they're field testing him at the expense of their own just to prepare even more for the Reaper battles. Perhaps Cerberus gained intel while aboard the derelict reaper that shows what Reaper ground troops will be like (See: The Batarian Husk, etc) and they're wanting to get him fully prepared for everything involved.

So therefore: Shepard dies due to Reapers having Collectors. Cerberus revives him from death, fully intact with some Reaper stuff (that they got from the Derelict Reaper), stuff that they know would be able to bring down a fleet. Perhaps in an Overlord type scenario- Where Shepard gets into one of those big machines like David (I think that was his name...) was in and can control all the machines (AKA Reapers) that is under that machine (AKA Harbinger)'s direct control. I'm guessing that there's a kind of failsafe installed into each Reaper that would (In the unlikely event that the leader Reaper dies) direct them to who the new leader would be. Cerberus, having found this failsafe, would install a similar one into Shepard and edit the programming in such a slight way that he would become the next leader, having been unquestioned. Then the Reapers would likely listen to whatever Shepard said, unknowing that he wasn't an actual Reaper. It'll be like the end of LotSB, how with use of the intercom voice changer, everyone believes Liara to be the same Broker as before. This may be some foreshadowing, we'll see. I like this theory.

You don't need to have someone die to give them implants, Reaper or otherwise. That's what surgery is for. Resurrection should not have been done and didn't need to be used.

That's implying that Shepard would just be like "Hey Cerberus, I heard you have some of the enemy's tech. I want to let you knock me out and implant some of that in me. No hard feelings about our past."

Honestly, this was probably the best way to do this, story wise.

[Destroy Raiden_]

My option not doing it a waste either way. If I was TIM I would've put my money on making tech, buying some uncharted world, and making a very self sustaining bunker with in it.

But on the other hand being TIM is his happy go using people self I theorize shep was dying turned out great for him if he didn't deliberately get shep killed anyhow in order to infuse him with reaper tech and dangle him infront of the reapers as tasty treat that they could also take possession of with a little use of hacking. I would then allow my puppet to be ensnared in their claws and allow them to think he was a good dog doing their bidding now so long as the missions he is sent on do not conflict with me I'll let him to it to maintain user confidence but if it does I'll turn on the chip I put in his brain and make him fail the mission or sabotage the item he needs to get if its a weapon I consider to be dangerous to me. I would also have him sabotage the reaper or reapers he was being placed onto any bases they had and I would use my super prohuman army to take out my enemies outpost, bases,and men and by the time the figured out I placed a mole in their workings it'll be too late. But that's just me.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 22 juin 2011 - 01:37 .

[KevShep]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

My option not doing it a waste either way. If I was TIM I would've put my money on making tech, buying some uncharted world, and making a very self sustaining bunker with in it.

But on the other hand being TIM is his happy go using people self I theorize shep was dying turned out great for him if he didn't deliberately get shep killed anyhow in order to infuse him with reaper tech and dangle him infront of the reapers as tasty treat that they could also take possession of with a little use of hacking. I would then allow my puppet to be ensnared in their claws and allow them to think he was a good dog doing their bidding now so long as the missions he is sent on do not conflict with me I'll let him to it to maintain user confidence but if it does I'll turn on the chip I put in his brain and make him fail the mission or sabotage the item he needs to get if its a weapon I consider to be dangerous to me. I would also have him sabotage the reaper or reapers he was being placed onto any bases they had and I would use my super prohuman army to take out my enemies outpost, bases,and men and by the time the figured out I placed a mole in their workings it'll be too late. But that's just me.

My guess is that cerberus knows that shepard may not want to work for cerberus so they get him killed, bring him back so that he owes them and must work for cerberus, and by doing that shepard becomes indoctrinated because he is now open to suggestions by doing things that normally he/she would not do (how reapers indoctrinat as stated in Retribution) unless he goes against cerberus and avoids indoctrination altogether by not being infulanced. Shepards return (if shepard supported cerberus) was in favor to the reapers main plan.

Modifié par KevShep, 22 juin 2011 - 07:56 .

[racerfox]

Nightwriter wrote...

the ability to command loyalty is not unique, and not worth four billion credits.

In this instance it is.

TiM has power an reach and influence, but the army he could have raised and brought to the fight against the reapers would probably have made squat all difference. 

When the Reapers attack, they attack ALL sentiant life, that'll mean that most of the species will rally together to fight them. TiM could have stengthened that army with his own, but what is brute force against a Reaper fleet?

The entire point of resurrecting Shepard was that his ability to command the best of the best plus being in the unique position of having Cerberus backing would alow him to collect the necessary intell needed. Knowledge that would work against the Reapers far more effectively than fleets of battle cruisers.

We don't know how the story is going to resolve itself yet, but we can be almost guaranteed that it won't be a win via a head on battle and will most likely be Shepard and his crew discovering some secret that allows them to take out the Reaper fleet.

Shepard is still an icon in ME2, and his status and legend and prowess allow him the necessary influence to access areas of the galaxy that no one else could in the time-frame. 

What you're also forgetting is that, while there may be other leaders of Shepards standard in the universe, how many of them would work for TiM let alone even /beleive/ the Reaper story? Shepard is unique, what he knows + his abilities make him the only man for the job.

Modifié par racerfox, 22 juin 2011 - 02:12 .

[Moiaussi]

racerfox wrote...

What you're also forgetting is that, while there may be other leaders of Shepards standard in the universe, how many of them would work for TiM let alone even /beleive/ the Reaper story? Shepard is unique, what he knows + his abilities make him the only man for the job.

How many Shepards would have worked for TIM if not forced to by the plot? At least some would have happily taken the chance and torn down Cerberus, getting the intel from TIM's organization by force or from other sources and still defeating the Collectors.

[whywhywhywhy]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
e same group but would have had alternatives. Actually, on second thought, look at the motivations of the cast...


Garrus - Rescued after almost being killed

Yes, even Garrus could theoretically be recruited by Miranda and Jacob since he would owe them his life. Jack is feasible, albeit a slight stretch while Tali is the only one who is liable to not join whatsoever. Add to the fact TIM could have "hired an army" and we have replacements covered if Grunt, Garrus and whoever weren't up for the trip.

doubt it, I disagree that the garrus who fought cerebus by Sheperd's side would have joined them if they saved him.  I imagine he'd say thanks and fire off two rounds at there heads.  Let's keep in mind he was attacking gangs at the time for hurting innocents, think of what Garrus knows cerebus did.

blam blam (bodies fall sound effect)

[racerfox]

Moiaussi wrote...

How many Shepards would have worked for TIM if not forced to by the plot? At least some would have happily taken the chance and torn down Cerberus, getting the intel from TIM's organization by force or from other sources and still defeating the Collectors.

Even the most renegade shep wouldn't have turned on TiM from the start. Regardless of Shepard's moral sway, he/she is a very intelligent and calculating person. He would not destry that bridge before knowing if it was the only one there was to walk across. Then it was discovered that the council don't believe him and consider him a relic of sorts at best (and an embarrassment at worst), and no matter how wonderful a commander Shepard is, he is nothing without rescources. 

TiM offers him the rescouces to fight the Repeaer threat when no one else will even listen, ALL Shepards would take his offer at first. Remember, regardless of Shepard being /your/ Shep he/she /is/ bound by Lore to a degree.

Anyway, you do get to defy Cerberus at the end of Me2 and stick a finger up to TiM if that's your choice.

Modifié par racerfox, 22 juin 2011 - 02:24 .

[Moiaussi]

Racer, why do you think it would be the renegades most likely to turn on TIM? Many of the renegades were complaining after ME1 about not being able to join Cerberus. The paragons are the ones who normally have the stronger objections.

[racerfox]

Moiaussi wrote...

Racer, why do you think it would be the renegades most likely to turn on TIM? Many of the renegades were complaining after ME1 about not being able to join Cerberus. The paragons are the ones who normally have the stronger objections.

Fine, then make my point but with Paragons in place. I'm not really interested in bickering around the skirts of the topic...