59 réponses à ce sujet

[Destroy Raiden_]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Honestly, I would have less of a qualm with it if the execution they used did not lead to plotholes or stupid logic. I needn't reiterate the tireless debate of Shepard's body not be able to survive and therefore his brain not being retained however it is where all the issues stem. There is no effort made to provide exposition to the aforementioned. What I found particularly annoying is how irrelevant death was rendered. All BioWare seemed keen on using it for were off handed one liners and a cheap means for the mechanics to influence the story.

Where it became egregious is the rationality implied in the game. Shepard should be the last person Cerberus wants alive based on events of Mass Effect. Even excluding that by way of their moral ambiguity. TIM has no actual objective when Shepard is revived. The only information available is human colonies are being abducted and his hypothesis is the Reapers are involved. This alone is a partial stretch of logic but concluding defying death is necessary is simply idiocy. Worse is there is nothing to remotely insinuate Miranda and Jacob were not capable of handling the mission on their own. They might not have recruited the same group but would have had alternatives. Actually, on second thought, look at the motivations of the cast...

Mordin - Test his scientific capabilities.
Samara - Her code compelled her to prevent injustice
Grunt - Likes to kill stuff
Zaeed - Money
Kasumi - Money
Legion - Stop heretic geth
Thane - Has a death wish
Garrus - Rescued after almost being killed

Yes, even Garrus could theoretically be recruited by Miranda and Jacob since he would owe them his life. Jack is feasible, albeit a slight stretch while Tali is the only one who is liable to not join whatsoever. Add to the fact TIM could have "hired an army" and we have replacements covered if Grunt, Garrus and whoever weren't up for the trip.

Just went I am certain they could not beat this rubbish any further. Out pops the supposed indoctrination concept, where TIM is a product of the Reapers. So the Reapers resurrected their greatest nemesis... for no adequately logical reason? Ugh...

No, I do not like the revival arc. It was horribly executed, devoid of depth and instead used as a gimmick. Hopefully that last tidbit remains a rumor.

Good points, but even being saved by Miranda and Jacob I don't think Garrus would join if you recruited him in ME sense he too saw what Cerberus did but an unrecruited Garrus might work for them. But everyone else beyond him, Tali, and Jack could've been pulled right over no issues.

I also have a huge issue with this TIM is playing God at worse Jesus at second because the project is called Lazarus implying TIM thinks he has god like power and has the audacity to bring back a dead man. Not to mention the issues of blood transfusions, tissue acceptance, and all this while the body is in some sort of frozen state to lessen decomposition rate.

How was the body preserved? Deep freezing the body slows down decomposition it doesn't halt it.

How did they get shep's memories back? After the brain cells die there is no memory anymore and it can't come back.

How many of the newly grown organs, tissue, or limbs reject? Experiments now with growing things like Ears or organs still get rejected when attached back to the body of the original doner. Reattached limbs suffer the same fate just because it came off of you doesn't mean your body wants it back.

How much of shep is reaper tech and metal?

What % of shep is still organic and human?

We know shep woke up early and had brief complications did anymore occur?

What went wrong during the project?

How much did Jacob, Miranda, and what's him name know on the project?

Was that other scientist guy who turned SB agent used to put in the chip and other things Miranda didn't know about?

Is shep sterile? You only have so many hours after death for this stuff to be collected and still be viable after the a point it is unvaiable. This topic is only also brought up because of people wanting to have shep conceive children with their LIs. This now needs to be addressed in Cerberus files.

I want to find very detailed files at some point during 3 I don't care if I have to take a whole day to read them I want tons of info in there hell BW even include info I think is TMI (too much info) I want to know every bit of info on this not just what was used in shep and where but why'd they do it what was the reason did tim expect to use shep as a tempting target for the reapers or was it something else.

Maybe shep doesn't even find this info maybe when we play as Garrus he raids the Cerberus base kills TIM and uncovers all this while shep is already hacked and being used by the reapers.

[Rip504]

It may never occur to me to "Raise the Dead".

I really did hate this in ME2. Why kill Shepard at all. II hated it,the only real part I did not like. I got killed and revived before I ever started playing? Really? Sorry.

[Fixers0]

A complete waste of Credits and effort.

[who would know]

What hurt believability even more was that no one acknowledges the gravity of the situation. This is death and two years down the road, rebirth. There is no pause given, not even by Shepard.

That said. There's still opportunity in ME3 to elaborate on and turn the resurrection into something more than what came across very much as a plot device, and an afterthought.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Raven4030 wrote...

I think I'm going to point out the obvious here:

If they had just let Shephard die off and replace him with some other mook this entire thread would instead be dedicated to whining about the death of Shephard and wanting instead some convoluted resurrection story of some kind to bring him back, or just not have him get killed off in the first place.

The fact Shepard can so easily be removed from his/her own supposed story, is an insult to the character the narrative. The protagonist of a trilogy should be the lifeblood, the engine which turns the propeller. In ME2, Shepard is useless, excluding being a competent soldier, and any mook can take up that role. Look at Jacob, perfect for the job.

At the end of the day, it's a story, and stories don't always make sense or work how they're supposed to in the real world. There are things that can destroy suspension of disbelief (particularly when they invent rules for why something can't be done then violate those same rules a few scenes later), this isn't one of them. Shephard dying and being brought back, as somebody mentioned before, does help to create a myth surrounding the man, turning him from just an incredibly capable leader (and I did make my argument about why he would be most capable) into a myth, a legend.

Furthermore: You're willing to accept the existence of a magical substance that can do everything from propelling massive dreadnaughts faster than the speed of light (given that one line where Ashley refers to 12 light-years as 'a day's cruise' in ME1: at least 4000 times faster than light speed) to giving random mooks the force, but not of a man who would be worth a resurrection project costing several billion credits?

What you have essentially stated is we should not only accept poor quality writing but anticipate it in future endeavors. Fiction is not required to make logical sense in our real life setting, it must however adhere to the restrictions of its own lore. Sci-fi is particularly difficult because of the attempt to blend fantastical scenarios into a realistic-esque setting. The lack of exposition on Shepard's death amounts to poor writing by virtue what we have been told cannot have happened. Likewise, Arrival is a seething mess of idiocy and retcons an abundance of previously established fact. The use of ammo, and the laughable excuse provided to justify it. These are all indications of lackluster writing, which you are free to disregard but to claim a story not making sense within the lore created, is simply ignorance.

When did Shepard demonstration incredible leader? The entire angle in Mass Effect is you play the role of someone in the right place, at the right moment. In ME2, Shepard does nothing to ever show he/she is a competent leader. Being able to shoot stuff does not equate to leadership, and anyone could have done what Shepard did. That was the point, at least in ME1. What defined Shepard, made him/her unique, was the cipher. Only they knew the actual gravity of the situation. In ME2, (s)he does nothing.

The Reapers are backed by proper exposition to explain their existence. They are as relevant to the plot as the Asari. Shepard's resurrection is nonsensical idiocy. There is no rationality to defy death when any competent schmuck with a shotgun (hello again Jacob) or a SMG (how you doing, Miranda?) can accomplish exactly the same task... for nothing. Worse is TIM reaches this conclusion based on theories. He does not even know if reviving a former nemesis will actually be of assistance. What if he had been mistaken and Shepard shot him? It is stupid logic that TIM would ever make this decision without any sufficient evidence and even then, you have people already. Gah!

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
e same group but would have had alternatives. Actually, on second thought, look at the motivations of the cast...


Garrus - Rescued after almost being killed

Yes, even Garrus could theoretically be recruited by Miranda and Jacob since he would owe them his life. Jack is feasible, albeit a slight stretch while Tali is the only one who is liable to not join whatsoever. Add to the fact TIM could have "hired an army" and we have replacements covered if Grunt, Garrus and whoever weren't up for the trip.

doubt it, I disagree that the garrus who fought cerebus by Sheperd's side would have joined them if they saved him.  I imagine he'd say thanks and fire off two rounds at there heads.  Let's keep in mind he was attacking gangs at the time for hurting innocents, think of what Garrus knows cerebus did.

blam blam (bodies fall sound effect)

So Garrus is a ruthless and psychotic murderer these days? Wonderful...

It is admittedly a stretch but if we presume everything in his recruitment happens the same. Not only would Jacob and Miranda rescue you him from the various merc groups. They would have saved his life again after repairing his mangled face. Who knows, maybe they would have bribed him with a fixed up suit of her, something Shepard only does if you purchase the DLC. Garrus has ever right to be suspicious, and could reasonably turn down their offer however Jacob could easily be a convincing sort. He certainly makes a case for being a rational man, with the galaxy's interest at heart. He, like Garrus, have a disdain for how the Citadel and Council operate. Garrus later talks well of the Cerberus crew aboard the Normandy. There is even Joker and Dr. Chakwas to help settle him in.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 27 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[Yate]

An army would be hard to keep secret. An army has deserters. An army needs a lot of transportation. An army doesn't have stealth. An army doesn't have the same influence as Shepard.

Whereas Shepard and his team can strike with impunity wherever and whenever they want.

For sheer numbers and firepower, leave it to the Turians. They've got the galaxy covered on that front. TIM isn't trying to wage war against the rest of the galaxy. He trusts that when the Reapers show up, the armies will do their part. But they need someone to rally behind.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Did I mention here I've started a thread on BW needing to reveal the Lproject and I'm trying to get people to put in their suggestions on how BW can answer the questions raised by such a project found here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/7730998/6#7745673

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 27 juin 2011 - 07:37 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
e same group but would have had alternatives. Actually, on second thought, look at the motivations of the cast...


Garrus - Rescued after almost being killed

Yes, even Garrus could theoretically be recruited by Miranda and Jacob since he would owe them his life. Jack is feasible, albeit a slight stretch while Tali is the only one who is liable to not join whatsoever. Add to the fact TIM could have "hired an army" and we have replacements covered if Grunt, Garrus and whoever weren't up for the trip.

doubt it, I disagree that the garrus who fought cerebus by Sheperd's side would have joined them if they saved him.  I imagine he'd say thanks and fire off two rounds at there heads.  Let's keep in mind he was attacking gangs at the time for hurting innocents, think of what Garrus knows cerebus did.

blam blam (bodies fall sound effect)

So Garrus is a ruthless and psychotic murderer these days? Wonderful...

It is admittedly a stretch but if we presume everything in his recruitment happens the same. Not only would Jacob and Miranda rescue you him from the various merc groups. They would have saved his life again after repairing his mangled face. Who knows, maybe they would have bribed him with a fixed up suit of her, something Shepard only does if you purchase the DLC. Garrus has ever right to be suspicious, and could reasonably turn down their offer however Jacob could easily be a convincing sort. He certainly makes a case for being a rational man, with the galaxy's interest at heart. He, like Garrus, have a disdain for how the Citadel and Council operate. Garrus later talks well of the Cerberus crew aboard the Normandy. There is even Joker and Dr. Chakwas to help settle him in.

ruthless psychotic murderer ? lol, You just described Cereberus a known pro human anti alien terrorist organization.  This is Cerebus's reputation and in me1 (seems as if you haven't played it, if not you should):

Cerebus experiments with with Rachni.
Cerebus experimented with the thorain creepers.
Killed Admiral Kahoku.
Attacked the Migrant fleet using the Flotilla's access codes.

Depending on with background you have Sheperd would have been affected by the thresher maws lured to the colony on Akuze, that experiment on tombs (a human).

Why would Garrus, Tali and Chakwas join Cerebus ?  Chakwas loves the alliance she joined for sheperd, she plainly states I work for you(Sheperd) not Cerebus.  The migrant fleet was attacked by them Tali would never join.  Garrus is working to defend the innocents on omega, given Cerebus's colorful past you really think he'd work for them ?  It wouldn't happen willingly none of them would joined willingly they'd have to be brainwashed or blackmailed in some way.  Recruiting them at that point becomes pointless.

Joker ??  He's the only one who's willingly work for Cerebus he does't care about anything else but flying, not so for the others.  This is also the reason I don't like Joker.


Without Sheperd Tali, Garrus and Chakwas wouldn't have been there,
period.  Listen to the dialog ingame.

[minormiracle]

Shepard was already a remarkable military officer before ME1 started. During the course of the game, he became the first human Spectre, worked closely with a diverse team of aliens, possibly saved the most powerful political body in the galaxy, and defeated a massive hostile alien invasion against the heart of galactic civilization. Shepard was one of the most, if not the most remarkable human in recent history. Now with that in mind TIM's choice to first bring Shepard back from the dead and then throw enough talent, materiel, and credits at him so that the savior of the Citadel could show the galaxy that the first time wasn’t all a fluke is actually very consistent with the overall goal of Cerberus in promoting the ascension of humanity. Think of the public adoration and nationalism inspired by the larger than life image of a talented sports hero who not only broke the world record once but came out of retirement to do it again. Now replace "sports" with "war" and "out of retirement" with "back from death". Yes Shepard's mission was "secret" but that just means Cerberus is in a position to spin the events and outcome exactly the way they want. Shepard is set up to once again led a crack team of humans and aliens (harmoniously, brilliantly) to fight off (impossibly, heroically) the horrible alien menace from beyond, while backed not by the Alliance or the Council, but Cerberus. That both elevates the public image of Shepard from hero to a true god walking among mere mortals, and justifies the Cerberus manifesto in the court of public opinion. You can't create that kind of positive PR bonanza regardless of how many credits you're willing to sink into a mercenary army.

You also have to consider that a secretive, hyper advanced, and quite clearly non friendly alien race with a penchant for collecting genetically interesting sentient life forms suddenly developed a keen interest in Shepard's corpse. What better way to both deny the aliens their prize and find out for yourself what their interest might be than to study every inch of that corpse as you're putting it back together? Shepard did after all have direct mental contact with a Prothean artifact (not to mention a Reaper and a Thorian), which caused him to develop the rare and likely unique ability to interact with other artifacts from said extinct race. Studying that ability may require Shepard to be alive and as closely resembling his old mental self as possible. The disappearing human colonies threat developed concurrently to Project Lazarus. Cerberus always intended to investigate the abductions. Resurrecting Shepard to head the mission may have just been TIM's convenient after the fact justification for efficiently directing the resources he already had in play towards a task he always intended to carry out, when in truth he had already gotten most of what he wanted out of Lazarus just by bringing Shepard back.

Modifié par minormiracle, 30 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

ruthless psychotic murderer ? lol, You just described Cereberus a known pro human anti alien terrorist organization.  This is Cerebus's reputation and in me1 (seems as if you haven't played it, if not you should):

Cerebus experiments with with Rachni.
Cerebus experimented with the thorain creepers.
Killed Admiral Kahoku.
Attacked the Migrant fleet using the Flotilla's access codes.

Depending on with background you have Sheperd would have been affected by the thresher maws lured to the colony on Akuze, that experiment on tombs (a human).

Why would Garrus, Tali and Chakwas join Cerebus ?  Chakwas loves the alliance she joined for sheperd, she plainly states I work for you(Sheperd) not Cerebus.  The migrant fleet was attacked by them Tali would never join.  Garrus is working to defend the innocents on omega, given Cerebus's colorful past you really think he'd work for them ?  It wouldn't happen willingly none of them would joined willingly they'd have to be brainwashed or blackmailed in some way.  Recruiting them at that point becomes pointless.

Joker ??  He's the only one who's willingly work for Cerebus he does't care about anything else but flying, not so for the others.  This is also the reason I don't like Joker.


Without Sheperd Tali, Garrus and Chakwas wouldn't have been there,
period.  Listen to the dialog ingame.

Your post described a scenario wherein Garrus shot Miranda and Jacob with impunity simply because they are members of Cerberus. This in spite of the fact he would have been rescued not once, but twice by both. So yes this would make him a murderer, a sadistic one at that. For comparison value Shepard should execute every Bartarian on sight because they might have scarred his/her childhood.

I have previously stated why Garrus could theoretically join Cerberus however I shall provide another. His view is to save innocents, the Collectors are abducting colonies in droves. He is moreover aware of the imminent threat by the Reapers, therefore may take it upon himself to honor the memory of his fallen comrade and commander. You claim Cerberus' past would be a detriment or ignite instant hostility from Garrus, yet it was perfectly plausible for Shepard to buy TIM's nonsense? ME2 altered the dynamic and essentially made Cerberus' passed atrocities irrelevant when they became the "misunderstood" syndicate. If Shepard can accept them at face value, then Garrus can. Now before you retort by citing TIM having resurrected Shepard being the catalyst. They just saved Garrus' life. So...

Tali I already said is not liable to work with Cerberus. So why you mention her I do not know.

Why would Chakwas work for Cerberus? Perhaps because she already did. She is welcome to spew whatever nonsense she so desires to help her sleep at night but the reality is Chakwas is an employee of Cerberus. She was prior to Shepard's resurrection and is subsequent. Her actual reason for coming was due to Joker's condition. So it pays credence to the notion she may have been persuaded for this alone, if not simply to be aboard another space ship, something she is quite forthcoming about. Regardless, her presence is completely unnecessary. What would it have mattered had she never joined? I think Cerberus would have done just fine. They can cure death after all.

While irrelevant to the discussion. I cannot blame Joker. The Alliance is wholly incompetent and the Council is inept. Even if Cerberus was lying, his options were them or nothing. He chose to gamble on a slim chance than none at all.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:45 .