301 réponses à ce sujet

[MadCat221]

Siansonea II wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So is this a "hate on the Talimance" thread? Because I think we've seen enough of those already. It's an optional romance after all, it's pretty to avoid it if it's not one's cup of tea.

Romance may be fanservice, but let's stop acting like we don't all want some type of fanservice ourselves, shall we? Even if it's "more classic RPG features" or some kind of combat maneuver, I would hope BioWare wants to give its fans what they want, and not just tell an unsatisfying story in order to distance itself from some nebulous idea that "fanservice" is inimical to good storytelling and creative presentation.

Fanservice = giving the fans what they want.

Making the game good = making the game good.

Making the game good may or may not line up with what the fans want, and should be Bioware's priority here. Otherwise, you end up with Dragon Age 2.

News flash: Some people liked Dragon Age 2. It's been proven. But I guess those people don't matter, what matters is catering to one person's arbitrary idea of "a good game". 

Not enough did, apparently.

[Siansonea]

MadCat221 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So is this a "hate on the Talimance" thread? Because I think we've seen enough of those already. It's an optional romance after all, it's pretty to avoid it if it's not one's cup of tea.

Romance may be fanservice, but let's stop acting like we don't all want some type of fanservice ourselves, shall we? Even if it's "more classic RPG features" or some kind of combat maneuver, I would hope BioWare wants to give its fans what they want, and not just tell an unsatisfying story in order to distance itself from some nebulous idea that "fanservice" is inimical to good storytelling and creative presentation.

Fanservice = giving the fans what they want.

Making the game good = making the game good.

Making the game good may or may not line up with what the fans want, and should be Bioware's priority here. Otherwise, you end up with Dragon Age 2.

News flash: Some people liked Dragon Age 2. It's been proven. But I guess those people don't matter, what matters is catering to one person's arbitrary idea of "a good game". 

Not enough did, apparently.

Fantastic. In addition to being an "I hate the Talimance" thread, it's now a "I hate Dragon Age 2" thread. Perfect. Maybe we should go for the trifecta, and start talking about planet scanning or something?

[Maugrim]

Siansonea II wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So is this a "hate on the Talimance" thread? Because I think we've seen enough of those already. It's an optional romance after all, it's pretty to avoid it if it's not one's cup of tea.

Romance may be fanservice, but let's stop acting like we don't all want some type of fanservice ourselves, shall we? Even if it's "more classic RPG features" or some kind of combat maneuver, I would hope BioWare wants to give its fans what they want, and not just tell an unsatisfying story in order to distance itself from some nebulous idea that "fanservice" is inimical to good storytelling and creative presentation.

Fanservice = giving the fans what they want.

Making the game good = making the game good.

Making the game good may or may not line up with what the fans want, and should be Bioware's priority here. Otherwise, you end up with Dragon Age 2.

News flash: Some people liked Dragon Age 2. It's been proven. But I guess those people don't matter, what matters is catering to one person's arbitrary idea of "a good game". 

Not enough did, apparently.

Fantastic. In addition to being an "I hate the Talimance" thread, it's now a "I hate Dragon Age 2" thread. Perfect. Maybe we should go for the trifecta, and start talking about planet scanning or something?

So how about them all being bisexuals? 

[AngelicMachinery]

Siansonea II wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So is this a "hate on the Talimance" thread? Because I think we've seen enough of those already. It's an optional romance after all, it's pretty to avoid it if it's not one's cup of tea.

Romance may be fanservice, but let's stop acting like we don't all want some type of fanservice ourselves, shall we? Even if it's "more classic RPG features" or some kind of combat maneuver, I would hope BioWare wants to give its fans what they want, and not just tell an unsatisfying story in order to distance itself from some nebulous idea that "fanservice" is inimical to good storytelling and creative presentation.

Fanservice = giving the fans what they want.

Making the game good = making the game good.

Making the game good may or may not line up with what the fans want, and should be Bioware's priority here. Otherwise, you end up with Dragon Age 2.

News flash: Some people liked Dragon Age 2. It's been proven. But I guess those people don't matter, what matters is catering to one person's arbitrary idea of "a good game". 

Not enough did, apparently.

Fantastic. In addition to being an "I hate the Talimance" thread, it's now a "I hate Dragon Age 2" thread. Perfect. Maybe we should go for the trifecta, and start talking about planet scanning or something?

Oh god,  I hate Planet scanning...  and yet I forced myself to strip every planet I came across of all it's natural resources.  The economy in ME3 should probably be falling apart.

[jshadow]

you're making it sound as if people fall in love just because they want babies =P

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

lovgreno wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Fanservice = giving the fans what they want.

Making the game good = making the game good.

Making the game good may or may not line up with what the fans want, and should be Bioware's priority here. Otherwise, you end up with Dragon Age 2.

A good product that no one asks for isn't going to sell well, sadly.
So the developers will just have to try to make a game that is good in the way the potential costumers want. Wich is easier said than done of course.
Hopefully the developers also realise that if it's not a game they would want to play few others wont either so some artistic liberty is necesary.

Yeah, but the people who are like "OMG I WUV TALI! GIGGLESQUEE!" are going to buy the game anyway.

As Yahtzee said about fans, "The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you will be for it."

Also, f*ck planet scanning

[Zall]

fenix8081 wrote...

Will she ditch Shepard once her people need her?

No. Her loyalties lie with both: Shepard and the Flotilla. Shepard saved the galaxy, her ass and her people. Besides, being a mother is not the only requirement for being a productive member of the community. There will be deaths among the quarians and there will be orphans who will need caring parents. As mentioned, many ways to help the quarians.

There are many circumstances in which she might leave Shepard, as him going all crazy Renegade and sacrificing the quarian fleet for no good reason, but the fact that they can't have children is not one of them.

Also, I found her romance everything but fanservice. Tali is far away from being my favourite character, but she strongly reminded me of myself in these moments.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Zall wrote...

fenix8081 wrote...

Will she ditch Shepard once her people need her?

No. Her loyalties lie with both: Shepard and the Flotilla. Shepard saved the galaxy, her ass and her people. Besides, being a mother is not the only requirement for being a productive member of the community. There will be deaths among the quarians and there will be orphans who will need caring parents. As mentioned, many ways to help the quarians.

There are many circumstances in which she might leave Shepard, as him going all crazy Renegade and sacrificing the quarian fleet for no good reason, but the fact that they can't have children is not one of them.

Also, I found her romance everything but fanservice. Tali is far away from being my favourite character, but she strongly reminded me of myself in these moments.

I think that's a fair point - Tali is pretty well-developed as a character and insofar as any romance in Mass Effect make sense (i.e., not very) it works in ME2. I'm just worried that Bioware's going to pull their punches and write in an implausible "suburbs, dog, 2.5 kids" ending to that relationship. She's literally allergic to Shep's d*ck - that's not going to have a hollywood ending haha.

[S.A.K]

I don't think either(Tali and Shepard) of them are stupid enough to consider having kids together. They just love each other and Tali mistakenly said that she trusts Shepard more than any quarian. Also I found tali romance very belivable because it took 2 years for it to develop and some others like Liara had noticed tali's fondness for shepard.

[lovgreno]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Yeah, but the people who are like "OMG I WUV TALI! GIGGLESQUEE!" are going to buy the game anyway.

As Yahtzee said about fans, "The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you will be for it."

Also, f*ck planet scanning

I think you underestimate the Tali fans as well as fans for other characters.

Yeah, f*** it.

[Alienmorph]

A reminder, from page1:

Alienmorph wrote...
This isn't going to end well. The haters
live for threads like these. A pair of hours at we'll have a bunch of
idiots screaming "It was just a blatant and creepy fanservice!!!"

Well, it took more time than I predicted, but finally we've arrived to the character bashing. The word "fanservice" slapped all over the thread, and the unmissable idiot who says things like "LoL, she's allergic to Shep's d**k, how can you expect an happy ending?"

<_<<_<<_<

The people on this SN don't ever smet themselves.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 20 juin 2011 - 06:44 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Alienmorph wrote...

A reminder, from page1:

Alienmorph wrote...
This isn't going to end well. The haters
live for threads like these. A pair of hours at we'll have a bunch of
idiots screaming "It was just a blatant and creepy fanservice!!!"

Well, it took more time than I predicted, but finally we've arrived to the character bashing. The word "fanservice" slapped all over the thread, and the unmissable idiot who says things like "LoL, she's allergic to Shep's d**k, how can you expect an happy ending?"

<_<<_<<_<

The people on this SN don't ever smet themselves.

Yeah, if someone would prefer if characters acted plausibly and situations played themselves out plausibly, they must be an idiot. No other possible explanation. (And Tali is, in fact, literally allergic to Shep's d*ck. The whole amino acid/immune system thing.)

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 20 juin 2011 - 06:47 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Fanservice is just a convenient way for people who want all real discussion to stop they can't have a proper conversation on the characters past or merits and say fanservice so people keep going it's not fanservice instead of ignoring them and continuing on.

Sense BW listens to fans fanservice applies to the inventory in ME it was large fans said no we hate it BW took it nearly out for 2, people said I want more customizable armor and guns and BW fanserviced them by putting in more armor and guns that can be made customizable for 3 so fanservice is 70% of the game.

[Zall]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Zall wrote...

fenix8081 wrote...

Will she ditch Shepard once her people need her?

No. Her loyalties lie with both: Shepard and the Flotilla. Shepard saved the galaxy, her ass and her people. Besides, being a mother is not the only requirement for being a productive member of the community. There will be deaths among the quarians and there will be orphans who will need caring parents. As mentioned, many ways to help the quarians.

There are many circumstances in which she might leave Shepard, as him going all crazy Renegade and sacrificing the quarian fleet for no good reason, but the fact that they can't have children is not one of them.

Also, I found her romance everything but fanservice. Tali is far away from being my favourite character, but she strongly reminded me of myself in these moments.

I think that's a fair point - Tali is pretty well-developed as a character and insofar as any romance in Mass Effect make sense (i.e., not very) it works in ME2. I'm just worried that Bioware's going to pull their punches and write in an implausible "suburbs, dog, 2.5 kids" ending to that relationship. She's literally allergic to Shep's d*ck - that's not going to have a hollywood ending haha.

Tali's immune system is supposed to get used to Shepard after some time. If it doesn't and if she keeps getting sick.. well, there's still the nerve stimulation programs.

Just saying, I don't think their romance will fail at sex. People are imaginitive, trust me.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Fanservice is just a convenient way for people who want all real discussion to stop they can't have a proper conversation on the characters past or merits and say fanservice so people keep going it's not fanservice instead of ignoring them and continuing on.

Sense BW listens to fans fanservice applies to the inventory in ME it was large fans said no we hate it BW took it nearly out for 2, people said I want more customizable armor and guns and BW fanserviced them by putting in more armor and guns that can be made customizable for 3 so fanservice is 70% of the game.

I think I mentioned this before - changing the inventory is, theoretically, done to make the game a better game. Having characters act implausibly to make the fans gigglesquee is not. While I don't think any of the Mass Effect romances are very plausible, Tali would be no worse than the rest were it not for the fact that they basically seem to be interested in handwaving the whole "she might die" thing.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Zall wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Zall wrote...

fenix8081 wrote...

Will she ditch Shepard once her people need her?

No. Her loyalties lie with both: Shepard and the Flotilla. Shepard saved the galaxy, her ass and her people. Besides, being a mother is not the only requirement for being a productive member of the community. There will be deaths among the quarians and there will be orphans who will need caring parents. As mentioned, many ways to help the quarians.

There are many circumstances in which she might leave Shepard, as him going all crazy Renegade and sacrificing the quarian fleet for no good reason, but the fact that they can't have children is not one of them.

Also, I found her romance everything but fanservice. Tali is far away from being my favourite character, but she strongly reminded me of myself in these moments.

I think that's a fair point - Tali is pretty well-developed as a character and insofar as any romance in Mass Effect make sense (i.e., not very) it works in ME2. I'm just worried that Bioware's going to pull their punches and write in an implausible "suburbs, dog, 2.5 kids" ending to that relationship. She's literally allergic to Shep's d*ck - that's not going to have a hollywood ending haha.

Tali's immune system is supposed to get used to Shepard after some time. If it doesn't and if she keeps getting sick.. well, there's still the nerve stimulation programs.

Just saying, I don't think their romance will fail at sex. People are imaginitive, trust me.

I honestly wouldn't find this romance any worse than the others if they just used nerve stimulators or whatever. It's just that, if they establish that any pathogen's incredibly dangerous for Tali, they should be consistent on that.

[Alienmorph]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Yeah, if someone would prefer if characters acted plausibly and situations played themselves out plausibly, they must be an idiot. No other possible explanation. (And Tali is, in fact, literally allergic to Shep's d*ck. The whole amino acid/immune system thing.)

Oh, please. I've read ll your posts: you're just trying to p!ss off the biggest number possible of people "for the lulz". Even Siansonea, who's one of the hystorical anti-Tali users of the SN, came here discussing calmy the thread's topic, and no one said anything against her only because she don't like Tali (wich it would be a really dumb reason to bash an user). So don't try to make me looking like I'm trying to shut your mounth only because we disagree. Different opinions are always welcome, and often interesting, trollposting no.

Also... "plausibilily". Oookay. What we knew of Tali thanks to ME1? Extremely loyal to her people, she's an almost 0 selfish person, gentle, but a bit cinic when needed, she can have a nice frendship path in with Shepard, her species have a cronic immunodeficency.

What happen in ME2? She's still extremely loyal and non-selfish (she'd accept to be exiled to save the reputation of a dead quarian), she's gentle (at least with Shepard if s/he don't mess with her) but easily raging against Cerberus and who bashes other quarians (the volus on the citadel), her friendship path with Shepard can evolve into a romance, but not without consequences (even if not critical) to her health.

Yeah... a totally implausible and contraddictory continuation of the character. Damn you creepy fanboys!!! [/sarcasm]

[CroGamer002]

What Alienmorph said.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Alienmorph wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Yeah, if someone would prefer if characters acted plausibly and situations played themselves out plausibly, they must be an idiot. No other possible explanation. (And Tali is, in fact, literally allergic to Shep's d*ck. The whole amino acid/immune system thing.)

Oh, please. I've read ll your posts: you're just trying to p!ss off the biggest number possible of people "for the lulz". Even Siansonea, who's one of the hystorical anti-Tali users of the SN, came here discussing calmy the thread's topic, and no one said anything against her only because she don't like Tali (wich it would be a really dumb reason to bash an user). So don't try to make me looking like I'm trying to shut your mounth only because we disagree. Different opinions are always welcome, and often interesting, trollposting no.

Also... "plausibilily". Oookay. What we knew of Tali thanks to ME1? Extremely loyal to her people, she's an almost 0 selfish person, gentle, but a bit cinic when needed, she can have a nice frendship path in with Shepard, her species have a cronic immunodeficency.

What happen in ME2? She's still extremely loyal and non-selfish (she'd accept to be exiled to save the reputation of a dead quarian), she's gentle (at least with Shepard if s/he don't mess with her) but easily raging against Cerberus and who bashes other quarians (the volus on the citadel), her friendship path with Shepard can evolve into a romance, but not without consequences (even if not critical) to her health.

Yeah... a totally implausible and contraddictory continuation of the character. Damn you creepy fanboys!!! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, not everyone who has a different opinion from you is trolling you I can't imagine how that mentality would work in day-to-day life.

I don't find the romance with Tali plausible because:

A) the game establishes that this sort of thing is, in fact, quite dangerous. She tells us as much when she talks about taking  a suit breach - every time she gets exposed to a pathogen, she's rolling the dice. At the very best, she's being exposed to something that is almost certainly going to interfere with her fighting and hacking on the eve of a battle where those things are important for her survival and the survival of others.

the same problem that all love interests in Mass Effect have - they're under Shep's command. So, Shep is abusing authority and creating a massive conflict of interest by sleeping with any of his/her subordinates. It's especially bad in Tali's case because it (at least in-universe) degrades her ability to fight and/or hack. It's jeapordizing the mission for personal reasons, something neither Paragon nor Renegade Shep would be on board with. The fact that the game doesn't acknolwedge that the romance is massively unethical is something I also find problematic.

In other words, there are serious issues associated with the romance. If the game acknowledged those issues, that would be less of an issue. But the fact that Bioware thinks it's fine to just handwave these problems with herbal tea is not exactly writing in line with the generally high standards at Bioware.

[Alienmorph]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Seriously, not everyone who has a different opinion from you is trolling you I can't imagine how that mentality would work in day-to-day life.

That was what I was already saying. I didn't accuse you of troll-posting because we disagree, but because you used a quite provocatory attitude while exposing your opinion. And you're still doing it, considered that you've just suggested that in all-day life I could get angry with everyone who disagrees with me <_<

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't find the romance with Tali plausible because:

A) the game establishes that this sort of thing is, in fact, quite dangerous. She tells us as much when she talks about taking  a suit breach - every time she gets exposed to a pathogen, she's rolling the dice. At the very best, she's being exposed to something that is almost certainly going to interfere with her fighting and hacking on the eve of a battle where those things are important for her survival and the survival of others.

One thing is a suit breach on the battlefield, another spending some time out of the suit in a close environment ad after taking the necessary precautions (immuno-boosts and antibiotics). Also Shepard's chemical incompatibility with her, is in fact, more an advantage than a treat. She can't take any pathogen or virus from him, but only having an allergic reaction. Wich in theory could have killed her too, okay, but unless Tali were the first quarian mating an human (a veeeery unlikely thing) she knew that she had a decent chance of survive and being enough healty to do her duty in the SM.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

the same problem that all love interests in Mass Effect have - they're under Shep's command. So, Shep is abusing authority and creating a massive conflict of interest by sleeping with any of his/her subordinates. It's especially bad in Tali's case because it (at least in-universe) degrades her ability to fight and/or hack. It's jeapordizing the mission for personal reasons, something neither Paragon nor Renegade Shep would be on board with. The fact that the game doesn't acknolwedge that the romance is massively unethical is something I also find problematic.

In other words, there are serious issues associated with the romance. If the game acknowledged those issues, that would be less of an issue. But the fact that Bioware thinks it's fine to just handwave these problems with herbal tea is not exactly writing in line with the generally high standards at Bioware.

I can't help you about this. Technically Shepard isn't even a military in ME2, and in ME1 Ash reminds him that's forbidden to date a subordinate and subtitely suggest that Liara, don't being part of the crew at all the effects, is the only one s/he could date without consequences. So it's not like your objection is completely ignored, but the player can ignore the conflict of interest and simply consider Shepard a spatial adventurer and romance one of his/her companions, instead of considering him a military fiercely bounded to da rules.

In the very end, it's the same old story. You can choose to do or not the romance, for whathever reason you want. But coming here just to say "LoL, it's just pointless and implausible fanservice, why you're so dumb to don't understand it?" won't bring to anything.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 20 juin 2011 - 08:05 .

[PrinceLionheart]

It was fanservice for Talimancers. I have nothing against Tali but her romance was pretty bad and felt more like a fanfiction TBH. "I've had a crush on you for like forever now let's have sex even though it can potentially kill me."

Just my stance that her romance lacked any real substance. It's good if you're a fan of her character and like to RP that you never got to make your move on her in the first game, but for me it was bad.

[Skirata129]

who cares? let them have their fun. she didn't appeal to me at all, but whatever.

[fenix8081]

Just to make this clear, I did the full disclosure of being a Talimancer at the beginning because I don't really care if it's feasible...I'm all for the fanservice. I thought Tali was on of the most well-rounded characters in ME1 and whether it was my imagination or the voice acting, felt that Tali was at least showing interest towards Shepard.

I started the post just wondering what other people's thoughts were on the feasibility of the romance occurring. Really, I think they'd be rather high given the situation that both of them have faced, which Tali even points out.

[CliffShepard]

Fanservice is just a convenient way for people who want all real discussion to stop they can't have a proper conversation on the characters past or merits and say fanservice so people keep going it's not fanservice instead of ignoring them and continuing on.

Sense BW listens to fans fanservice applies to the inventory in ME it was large fans said no we hate it BW took it nearly out for 2, people said I want more customizable armor and guns and BW fanserviced them by putting in more armor and guns that can be made customizable for 3 so fanservice is 70% of the game. [/quote]

Fanservice makes fans appreciate games. If you don't listen to the fans, you will disappoint them. The problem wth games so complex as the ones BioWare is known for producing, is that there will be people who are for and against different aspects of the game.
So, they create optional things, trying to keep everyone happy, such as the Tali romance - HOWEVER.....

Some gamers, like me, actually care about the quality of the game's canon storyline, and every aspect of it. This would include relationships that seem out of character for Tali, and just plain unlogically stupid. 
<_<

[Aedan_Cousland]

It was definitely fan service.

If there wasn't a clamor among some people for her to be a romance option in ME2, he would have never have been one. She was briefly considered as a possible romance option in ME1, but that idea was ultimately shelved. Her being an LI was revisited only because she had a large and vocal fanbase that demanded it (often obnoxiously) in the run up to ME2.

That being said I don't think her romance is any less believable than the others. There is an element of stupidity involved (risking Tali's health just to get some), but many real world couples  also do stupid things.