301 réponses à ce sujet

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Alienmorph wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Seriously, not everyone who has a different opinion from you is trolling you I can't imagine how that mentality would work in day-to-day life.

That was what I was already saying. I didn't accuse you of troll-posting because we disagree, but because you used a quite provocatory attitude while exposing your opinion. And you're still doing it, considered that you've just suggested that in all-day life I could get angry with everyone who disagrees with me <_<

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't find the romance with Tali plausible because:

A) the game establishes that this sort of thing is, in fact, quite dangerous. She tells us as much when she talks about taking  a suit breach - every time she gets exposed to a pathogen, she's rolling the dice. At the very best, she's being exposed to something that is almost certainly going to interfere with her fighting and hacking on the eve of a battle where those things are important for her survival and the survival of others.

One thing is a suit breach on the battlefield, another spending some time out of the suit in a close environment ad after taking the necessary precautions (immuno-boosts and antibiotics). Also Shepard's chemical incompatibility with her, is in fact, more an advantage than a treat. She can't take any pathogen or virus from him, but only having an allergic reaction. Wich in theory could have killed her too, okay, but unless Tali were the first quarian mating an human (a veeeery unlikely thing) she knew that she had a decent chance of survive and being enough healty to do her duty in the SM.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

the same problem that all love interests in Mass Effect have - they're under Shep's command. So, Shep is abusing authority and creating a massive conflict of interest by sleeping with any of his/her subordinates. It's especially bad in Tali's case because it (at least in-universe) degrades her ability to fight and/or hack. It's jeapordizing the mission for personal reasons, something neither Paragon nor Renegade Shep would be on board with. The fact that the game doesn't acknolwedge that the romance is massively unethical is something I also find problematic.

In other words, there are serious issues associated with the romance. If the game acknowledged those issues, that would be less of an issue. But the fact that Bioware thinks it's fine to just handwave these problems with herbal tea is not exactly writing in line with the generally high standards at Bioware.

I can't help you about this. Technically Shepard isn't even a military in ME2, and in ME1 Ash reminds him that's forbidden to date a subordinate and subtitely suggest that Liara, don't being part of the crew at all the effects, is the only one s/he could date without consequences. So it's not like your objection is completely ignored, but the player can ignore the conflict of interest and simply consider Shepard a spatial adventurer and romance one of his/her companions, instead of considering him a military fiercely bounded to da rules.

In the very end, it's the same old story. You can choose to do or not the romance, for whathever reason you want. But coming here just to say "LoL, it's just pointless and implausible fanservice, why you're so dumb to don't understand it?" won't bring to anything.

Yeah, and ME1 was acceptable at addressing the fact that fraternization's not allowed for a reason, especially because it ultimately creates a conflict of interest. I don't think it really goes far enough, however. When stuff like that, and stuff like suit breaches, get handwaved in ME2 however (and there is an important difference between handwaving, which is what we see here, and addressing an issue, which is what we see in ME1), plausibility is stretched. At the end of the day, she's still taking orders from him and she's still meaningfully endangered by pathogens of any origin, so the romance still falls flat.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 20 juin 2011 - 09:24 .

[elearon1]

The only thing I think needs to be added is, it's a relationship - they haven't pledged to marry or spend the rest of their lives together. People get in relationships they don't expect to last a lifetime as a matter of course. It is entirely believable that Tali has a crush on Shepard and she has a lot of good qualities - if you like those qualities, I won't argue matters of personal taste here - that would make her a desirable romance.

I don't really see them getting married, or having a lifelong love affair, but for a couple years - until their different responsibilities draw them apart - I don't see why not. But is Tali going to leave the Flotilla for Shepard long term? Probably not. Neither is it likely that Shep will live on the Flotilla with her. And, of course, they can't have their own children which, depending on their views on that matter, will make a long term relationship less viable. (they could adopt a child left homeless after the war, but Shep would have a hard time engaging in the child's life until it hit a certain age - unless he had a suit made for him/her to wear in its presence - so that could make things hard as well)

Was it fanservice? Probably ... but like others have said, there's nothing wrong with fanservice. (In fact, considering I'm one of those people who really wanted to see more Tali, I'm glad for it - on the other hand, I never liked Garrus, but if I get mine why shouldn't someone else get theirs?)

[Siansonea]

It's also worth noting that in all likelihood Tali and Shepard both fully expect to die within a matter of months. They're doing some pretty dangerous stuff, they're both bound to see their relationship as a few stolen moments of comfort before the inevitable happens. The same is probably true of all of Shepard's potential LIs, with the possible exception of Liara, who seems confident that organic life will defeat the Reapers. But most everybody is bound to think they are living on borrowed time, so they take what comfort they can find.

Edited to add: And yeah, I'm done with active Tali-hating. That's so last year. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 20 juin 2011 - 09:41 .

[The Twilight God]

fenix8081 wrote...

Full disclosure: my male Shepard was a talimancer before it was even possible.  However, the more and more I think about it, would she even really want a relationship with Shepard?

Her loyalty to the flotilla is paramount to her character.  She's fiercely loyal to her culture, so would she really want to have a relationship with someone outside of her species? Although there's a one-child policy on the flotilla now, the quarians are planning on getting that homeworld soon=need for repopulation along the "go forth and multiply" lines. 

17 million quarians have people to spare.  You make it out like they are going to line all the women up on their backs and have assigned males run through the line impreganting them.

As pointed out in another of my posts, this shouldn't be possible due to humans and quarians seeming to have very different genes.  So would she have even gone for Shepard?  Is it a heat of the moment in a tense situation thing with no lasting power?  Will she ditch Shepard once her people need her?  Is Kal'reeger gonna be the sperm donor if Shep and Tali work?

Why would they need children? Shepard can't really have children with Liara either. And he can't have children with Miranda. That leaves Jack and Ashley as the only believable romance by this logic. 

So was this a feasible relationship, or did Bioware cater to the other Talimancers and I who wanted a relationship with her in the first game?  Not complaining, but is this relationship really feasbile based on Tali's fierce loyalty to her people?

Yes, it's feasable. The only problem is they should have made the romance develope within the context of ME2 for people who treated her like crap in ME1. It's like Bioware figured she was just to sweet for anyone to treat like dirt so they wrote her assuming everyone was nice to her.
 
Despite this they did cater to talimancers and Garrumancers. Both characters weren't suposed to be in the game (and would show up again in ME3 like the VS) originally and were added due to popularity. Tali replaced Kasumi and Garrus replaced Zaeed on the retail roster. That is why their dialog is so limited and you can't really get any conversation out of them unless you romance them. This applies to all squadmates, but to a greater degree with Tali and Garrus.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juin 2011 - 09:42 .

[Bachi1230]

I feel it's fan service but all romances are fan service. They are all optional and aren't part of the main narrative, they are a treat for fans to enjoy with the story. I've played ME 1 and ME 2 without romancing anyone as well as romancing characters and besides a few conversations the story is the same.

Also if we're going to argue lore it falls to bioware to decide what can and can't happen. Does Tali get to survive the encounter with Shepard that could or would kill any other Quarian? Turns out she does.

[Scy Lancer]

The relationship was well designed from the beginning. From her in ME1 just being on pilgrimage and seeing the universe as a side kick to the savior of the galaxy. To taking command of her own teams on missions, showing how she's grown and taking a Shepard like roll with her people. I see it like she looked up to him then wanted him. It's believable that way. The repopulation thing and the difference in genetics... I figure if you're going to bring back a character from the dead, like Shepard, you can manipulate genes to make it work. They talk about gene therapy in the game so it's not entirely far fetched. Tali is loyal to her people, but (Depending on your Shepard) Shepard is loyal to the Galactic Community. I figure he would take an interest in the Quarian people.
Would Tali choose Shep over her people? Probably. But I think Shepard would go with her. Biowear is damn good at character, and relationship development. I have faith it will play out well for 3.

[King Zeel]

TOTAL FANSERVICE. everyone knows it. who wants to deny the obvious?

[Nashiktal]

King Zeel wrote...

EVERY ROMANCE WAS TOTAL FANSERVICE. everyone knows it. who wants to deny the obvious?

Fixed.

In all seriousness though, I never got why people thought the Tali romance was hero worship. She is crushing hard, no doubt there, but Tali has certainly proved that she is quite a mature character overall.

My only issue with her romance is that you don't learn anything new about her whether you romance her or not. It was very sweet, but unlike with say Garrus, or Jack, you don't get any character growth with Tali.

That said I do not condone the use of romance as the only opportunity to learn about these characters, but within the context of ME2 it was a bit dissapointing. 

[Zall]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

A) the game establishes that this sort of thing is, in fact, quite dangerous. She tells us as much when she talks about taking  a suit breach - every time she gets exposed to a pathogen, she's rolling the dice. At the very best, she's being exposed to something that is almost certainly going to interfere with her fighting and hacking on the eve of a battle where those things are important for her survival and the survival of others.

She's a grown woman (something what most people don't seem to accept on
these forums...) and capable of making her own decisions. While she
can't be 100% sure that the sickness won't seriously harm her, she made
all necesary precautions and is rather sure, that it won't harm the
mission.

Sure, she's love-sick and perhaps not the best person to make rational decisions, but isn't her romance somewhat comparable to a vampire/human relationship? While it could kill one of them, it's too good to stop.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
the same problem that all love interests in Mass Effect have -
they're under Shep's command. So, Shep is abusing authority and creating
a massive conflict of interest by sleeping with any of his/her
subordinates. It's especially bad in Tali's case because it (at least
in-universe) degrades her ability to fight and/or hack. It's
jeapordizing the mission for personal reasons, something neither Paragon
nor Renegade Shep would be on board with. The fact that the game
doesn't acknolwedge that the romance is massively unethical is something
I also find problematic.

Paragon Shepard has said several times that he sees most of his squad-mates as friends, same applying to Tali. She is not really bound by military law or any other kind of restrictions, since she is not part of Alliance. She follows Shepard because she respects him and fell for him. Technically, she could leave at any time.

Modifié par Zall, 21 juin 2011 - 04:45 .

[KainrycKarr]

Why can't people just accept the romance is here? It's already been done. The current LI's are going to stay LI's. Get over it.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Zall wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

A) the game establishes that this sort of thing is, in fact, quite dangerous. She tells us as much when she talks about taking  a suit breach - every time she gets exposed to a pathogen, she's rolling the dice. At the very best, she's being exposed to something that is almost certainly going to interfere with her fighting and hacking on the eve of a battle where those things are important for her survival and the survival of others.

She's a grown woman (something what most people don't seem to accept on
these forums...) and capable of making her own decisions. While she
can't be 100% sure that the sickness won't seriously harm her, she made
all necesary precautions and is rather sure, that it won't harm the
mission.

Sure, she's love-sick and perhaps not the best person to make rational decisions, but isn't her romance somewhat comparable to a vampire/human relationship? While it could kill one of them, it's too good to stop.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
the same problem that all love interests in Mass Effect have -
they're under Shep's command. So, Shep is abusing authority and creating
a massive conflict of interest by sleeping with any of his/her
subordinates. It's especially bad in Tali's case because it (at least
in-universe) degrades her ability to fight and/or hack. It's
jeapordizing the mission for personal reasons, something neither Paragon
nor Renegade Shep would be on board with. The fact that the game
doesn't acknolwedge that the romance is massively unethical is something
I also find problematic.

Paragon Shepard has said several times that he sees most of his squad-mates as friends, same applying to Tali. She is not really bound by military law or any other kind of restrictions, since she is not part of Alliance. She follows Shepard because she respects him and fell for him. Technically, she could leave at any time.

Well, IRL it's considered highly unethical (and, in certain cases, grounds for court-martial) to sleep with someone under your command. That, along with other similar actions, falls under the category of fraternization. It's unethical because it disrupts the chain of command, prevents the ranking officer from being impartial, can lead to exploitation of an asymmetrical relationship, is disruptive to morale, can jeapordize missions, and so on. So it doesn't really make sense that the game allows you to "romance" someone under your command without calling you out on the unethical nature of the action - especially if doing so causes a medical problem for her along with all these other issues.

It's not quite as bad (although still pretty wierd) in the first game, since Liara isn't part of your crew and Ash kind of calls you out on it. But the second game sort of devolves into implausibility.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 21 juin 2011 - 06:10 .

[Dave of Canada]

I felt it was annoying fanservice, not entirely as bad as some make it out to be but the mentions of "Btw, Tali loves you" every second moment when you're recruiting her and shortly afterwards got extremely annoying.

[Secret_Writter]

[Accidental Post.]

[Would you kindly delete?]

Modifié par Secret_Writter, 21 juin 2011 - 07:16 .

[Secret_Writter]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Well, IRL it's
considered highly unethical (and, in certain cases, grounds for
court-martial) to sleep with someone under your command. That, along
with other similar actions, falls under the category of fraternization.
It's unethical because it disrupts the chain of command, prevents the
ranking officer from being impartial, can lead to exploitation of an
asymmetrical relationship, is disruptive to morale, can jeapordize
missions, and so on. So it doesn't really make sense that the game
allows you to "romance" someone under your command without calling you
out on the unethical nature of the action - especially if doing so
causes a medical problem for her along with all these other issues.

It's
not quite as bad (although still pretty wierd) in the first game, since
Liara isn't part of your crew and Ash kind of calls you out on it. But
the second game sort of devolves into implausibility.

I figured that, due to being a Spectre in ME1 and having free reign in ME2 (As well as being a Spectre if you went back to the Citadel and played nice with the Council) such things didnt apply and, though its there and can technically still be considered fraternization and disruptive to the mission, it hardly matters as they are 'off the grid' military-wise for both Cerberus and the Alliance and any 'true' military organization (Aside from 'Spectres' who of course are practically able to do what they want while reporting to the Council (And I am aware they cannot literally do 'anything they want')), and the additional fact that, considering they are trying to save the galaxy, such issues can be placed to the side when all the species and organic individuals of the galaxy werent under constant threat of a Reaper landing in their back yard.

Or, by some chance, did i miss something?

Modifié par Secret_Writter, 21 juin 2011 - 07:15 .

[Secret_Writter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Shepard's ship is a civilian one. Though this does apply quite blatantly to ME1.


Also, in ME1, with Ashley anyway, it seems more like Shepard and Ashley flirt a bit but don't commit to any relationship, or don't intend to, until AFTER the mission is over. At one point Ashley even tells Shepard this that once their mission is over "things will be different". Implying that only then will they be able to be together.

Then the "suicide run" on Ilos comes and hell... they're all gonna die anyway, right?

I figured that was what was on everyones mind.

Shepard - "Screw the law, i'm dying for it so i can do whatever the hell i want. *Points at LI* You, my quarters, bunny-sex, now."

[Cutlass Jack]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Secret_Writter wrote...

Well, IRL it's considered highly unethical (and, in certain cases, grounds for court-martial) to sleep with someone under your command.

Shepard's ship is a civilian one. Though this does apply quite blatantly to ME1.


Also, in ME1, with Ashley anyway, it seems more like Shepard and Ashley flirt a bit but don't commit to any relationship, or don't intend to, until AFTER the mission is over. At one point Ashley even tells Shepard this that once their mission is over "things will be different". Implying that only then will they be able to be together.

Then the "suicide run" on Ilos comes and hell... they're all gonna die anyway, right?

Well the scene in ME1 only happens after you steal the Normandy and essentially become pirates. Ash only gives into things at that point because you were all likely to be court-martialed for much bigger reasons. Like Mutiny.

[titaniumHOG]

Illogical, fan based, annoying. I dont understand what people are coming from on their points of view.
1. arn't all LI's fan based i mean i know that tali was requested from the fan base but arn't all LI's decided yes or no through if the fans are going to want the relationship? so why is everyone saying that liara's or ashley/kadian's romance is so much better than any others? I understand that they didn't go the best way of it when they based really the peak of it on sex and didn't really build on a relationship but wasnt that how it was when A or K died in the first one and they were going to battle something that they didnt think they were coming back from and your love intrest comes in and does the dirty....just like the 2nd game. I really think that people from this stand point just havn't had that chance to grow with her even though the first LI's may have had a very short role in 2nd game you still had years to build on them and feel alot closer to them
2. Illogical? It was illogical for romeo and juliet to be together since their familes were at war but they were in love and they wanted to be together, I understand that Tali can die from physical contact and even with her treatments she can get sick "after" but havn't you heard someone say i love so n' so so much that i would take a bullet for them? Love is strong and you are willing to risk your life to be with someone wether its mentaly or physicaly and if thats not romantic enough for everybody else who says it was just about the sex then what is? this girl was going to risk her life to be in one intament moment with the man she loves, that is love.
3. annoying? one why are you on here if it annoy's you so much two why? because it wasn't there in the first game? because they were pleasing the fans? because she wasn't human? if you are in the romance fourms on a space adventure game then i think you should be more excepting of something past earth and humans i mean humans are just as equal as any other species in this game. seriously why are alien romances so hard to except in this game about alien and humans living in equality, if u havnt forgot the people who are only for humans are the bad guys

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Secret_Writter wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Well, IRL it's
considered highly unethical (and, in certain cases, grounds for
court-martial) to sleep with someone under your command. That, along
with other similar actions, falls under the category of fraternization.
It's unethical because it disrupts the chain of command, prevents the
ranking officer from being impartial, can lead to exploitation of an
asymmetrical relationship, is disruptive to morale, can jeapordize
missions, and so on. So it doesn't really make sense that the game
allows you to "romance" someone under your command without calling you
out on the unethical nature of the action - especially if doing so
causes a medical problem for her along with all these other issues.

It's
not quite as bad (although still pretty wierd) in the first game, since
Liara isn't part of your crew and Ash kind of calls you out on it. But
the second game sort of devolves into implausibility.

I figured that, due to being a Spectre in ME1 and having free reign in ME2 (As well as being a Spectre if you went back to the Citadel and played nice with the Council) such things didnt apply and, though its there and can technically still be considered fraternization and disruptive to the mission, it hardly matters as they are 'off the grid' military-wise for both Cerberus and the Alliance and any 'true' military organization (Aside from 'Spectres' who of course are practically able to do what they want while reporting to the Council (And I am aware they cannot literally do 'anything they want')), and the additional fact that, considering they are trying to save the galaxy, such issues can be placed to the side when all the species and organic individuals of the galaxy werent under constant threat of a Reaper landing in their back yard.

Or, by some chance, did i miss something?

It's not that the rules do or don't apply, it's that the reasons for the rules still apply. Maintaining the chain of command, morale, preventing partiality, ensuring mission success and so on become more important when more is riding on them. Honestly, it seems like the writers from ME2 just forgot what had already been established in ME1 and decided to shoehorn in a bunch of LI's because other Bioware games have LI's.

[ShadowLordXXX]

Er if that's how you want to play it, then you CAN play it like that. Whereas if someone does not want to play as 100% military professional they can. Hell there are a lot of opportunities to either play as a very strict military Shepard or as one who's well not so military.

In ME2 especially, regardless of the reasons why fraternization is discouraged in the military, Shepard is NOT military at this point and as such is not bound by military rules, whether or not he continues to abide by them well, that's his decision.

[Volus Warlord]

Odds are it would kill or severely endanger Tali?

[78stonewobble]

Imaginary "Faster Than Light" travel...

Lame fanservice to scifi fans... Completely unrealistic.

[Homebound]

no doubt tali as li in me2 was due to fanlove, but that was me2, in me3 she is an li with the expressed interest in making her a li.