301 réponses à ce sujet

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

[snipped for length]

No, inconsistent characterization is bad writing. As is a war story that includes something as unethical as fraternization without realizing it. As I said, Mass Effect 1 actually addresses the issue (kind of). Mass Effect 2 does not. Hence, inconsistent/bad writing.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 21 juin 2011 - 07:09 .

[ShadowLordXXX]

Except that fraternization is only mentioned in the first one because they're military? In ME2 none of them are still military, only Jacob, Garrus and Shepard are even former military. Garrus states that Turians don't have the same rules about fraternization as Humans. Jacob states Cerberus doesn't have rules about fraternization.And Shepard's point of view is up to the player. Why shouldn't a player be able to role play his/her Shepard as someone who doesn't agree with military restrictions on fraternization, I guarantee you there are probably real military people who wouldn't agree with it as well. And there's no real reason why Tali/Jack/Thane would even mention it, considering they aren't former military at all.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Only Kaidan and Ashley mention fraternisation. This suggests it is only an issue within the alliance, and not with other aliens. So why would it have anything to do with Tali's romance being unrealistic?

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

Except that fraternization is only mentioned in the first one because they're military? In ME2 none of them are still military, only Jacob, Garrus and Shepard are even former military. Garrus states that Turians don't have the same rules about fraternization as Humans. Jacob states Cerberus doesn't have rules about fraternization.And Shepard's point of view is up to the player. Why shouldn't a player be able to role play his/her Shepard as someone who doesn't agree with military restrictions on fraternization, I guarantee you there are probably real military people who wouldn't agree with it as well. And there's no real reason why Tali/Jack/Thane would even mention it, considering they aren't former military at all.

If you're getting shot at and taking orders, all the reasons the military has fraternization laws in the first place still apply.

The problem is that if you have to do intellectual backbends and plant all sorts of epileptic trees to justify a story element, Occam's Razor suggests that the cause for the story element is simply oversight by a writer. If Bioware had intended to have Shep consciously rebel against fraternization, they would have wrote that in as opposed to ignoring the entire issue.

[InvaderErl]

So then they did it in ME1 with Liara as well and Shepard's never been a big beliver in the no fraternization policy.

[Alienmorph]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Only Kaidan and Ashley mention fraternisation. This suggests it is only an issue within the alliance, and not with other aliens. So why would it have anything to do with Tali's romance being unrealistic?

Yup, in ME2 Jacob talks of Liara and Tali, wich were aboard the ship during the Collector's attack, as "non human staff", like they were fre-lancer allies or so. Ash too mentions that being Liara NOT human ,and thus not an Alliance soldier, it's logical that Shep dates her because she's not technically under his command. With Tali it's even easier. If you find dumb the supposed "conflict of interests" just let that she's exiled and she'll be out of any military organization she may belongs, and so Shepard because of his death and freelance alliance with Cerberus.

Also, if you find so unplausible that a space commander just says "Screw the rules!" and have a love story with someone of his crew, human or alien, good luck. You're just going to dislike something like 1/2 of the sci-fi stories ever made.

About the supposed writing and characterization flaws, DaveExclamationMarkYognaut seems to have pretty ignored what I've posted before, because doing piramidal quoting with someone less patient than me was funnier. Well, oookay.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 21 juin 2011 - 07:38 .

[InvaderErl]

I'd say its even more than half. Most military sci-fi series have people shacking up together that technically maybe shouldn't be doing so.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Alienmorph wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Only Kaidan and Ashley mention fraternisation. This suggests it is only an issue within the alliance, and not with other aliens. So why would it have anything to do with Tali's romance being unrealistic?

Yup, in ME2 Jacob talks of Liara and Tali, wich were aboard the ship during the Collector's attack, as "non human staff", like they were fre-lancer allies or so. Ash too mentions that being Liara NOT human ,and thus not an Alliance soldier, it's logical that Shep dates her because she's not technically under his command. With Tali it's even easier. If you find dumb the supposed "conflict of interests" just let that she's exiled and she'll be out of any military organization she may belongs, and so Shepard because of his death and freelance alliance with Cerberus.

Also, if you find so unplausible that a space commander just says "Screw the rules!" and have a love story with someone of his crew, human or alien, good luck. You're just going to dislike something like 1/2 of the sci-fi stories ever made.

About the supposed writing and characterization flaws, DaveExclamationMarkYognaut seems to have pretty ignored what I've posted before, because doing piramidal quoting with someone less patient than me was funnier. Well, oookay.

Well, if Tali wasn't under Shep's command she would be named something other than Tali'Zorah Vas Normandy.

And the issue is that Shep never really says "screw the rules" in ME2. Making this more about something the writers forgot to do than about something Shepard did. Once again, ME1 addressed this, and ME2 didn't for no apparent reason. Otherwise it was a very well-written game, but the romances were kind of tacked on.

[InvaderErl]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


Well, if Tali wasn't under Shep's command she would be named something other than Tali'Zorah Vas Normandy.

That becomes her name because Koris strips Vas Neema from her during the trial in order to isolate her and weigh public opinion against her - she never officially takes it on.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
And the issue is that Shep never really says "screw the rules" in ME2. Making this more about something the writers forgot to do than about something Shepard did. Once again, ME1 addressed this, and ME2 didn't for no apparent reason. Otherwise it was a very well-written game, but the romances were kind of tacked on.

He never says screw the rules when romancing Liara either in ME1 and she's as much under his command as Tali or Garrus or anyone in ME2.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 07:47 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Well, if Tali wasn't under Shep's command she would be named something other than Tali'Zorah Vas Normandy.

Yes. We are aware of that. If you can find something tangible about quarians (or any other alien species) having policies of fraternisation. Then I will give your argument some credibility.

Unfortunately for you, there is no in-game evidence.

[Alienmorph]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Well, if Tali wasn't under Shep's command she would be named something other than Tali'Zorah Vas Normandy.

She takes the name Vas Normandy becase it's the ship where she LIVES. It's a big difference, for quarians at least. They belongs to the ships before than to the of leaders of them. She'll still be Vas Normandy if Shepard abandoned the command.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
And the issue is that Shep never really says "screw the rules" in ME2.
Making this more about something the writers forgot to do than about
something Shepard did. Once again, ME1 addressed this, and ME2 didn't
for no apparent reason. Otherwise it was a very well-written game, but
the romances were kind of tacked on.

Accepting willingly to work with terrorists for a greater good implies a quite clear "screw the rules!" attitude in my books. And if you want something more explicit have a look to Horizon's dialogues, where Shepard can say that he sides with Cerberus because the Alliance didn't do nothing for saving the colonies. Or when he talks with the former Tali's Captain saying "technically I'm not a military anymore."

Modifié par Alienmorph, 21 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

@Previous posts:

Once again, relying on epileptic trees to explain the issue doesn't work - occam's razor, etc. If Tali had said "quarians don't have fraternization policies" or if Shep had said "I don't care about fraternization rules," then you might have a case. But absent something like that, the simplest explanation is that the writers simply didn't think about it.

And @Alienmorph, the whole "but thou must work for Cerberus" is a pretty questionable plot element as well.

[Alienmorph]

So, if a thing is not said black on white, but only deductible by the actions of the characters it's only a writer's flaw, and if I find the story still "plausible" I'm "relying on epileptic trees"?

Modifié par Alienmorph, 21 juin 2011 - 08:26 .

[ShadowLordXXX]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

@Previous posts:

Once
again, relying on epileptic trees to explain the issue doesn't work -
occam's razor, etc. If Tali had said "quarians don't have fraternization
policies" or if Shep had said "I don't care about fraternization
rules," then you might have a case. But absent something like that, the
simplest explanation is that the writers simply didn't think about it.

And @Alienmorph, the whole "but thou must work for Cerberus" is a pretty questionable plot element as well.

Except that all of your points are based on the assumption that Shepard does care. Occam's razor cuts both ways. If he romances someone in the crew then it follows he doesn't care about fraternization rules. Simple as that. He doesn't need to say: I don't care about fraternization for that to be evident, actions speak far louder than words.

As for say Tali, she isn't military. All Quarians are the crew of some ship, so I imagine Quarians would be extinct if they had rules against fraternization among crew members,

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 21 juin 2011 - 08:23 .

[Shep-ley]

Answer is absolutely yes. Also It is well-played by bioware. I'm talking about not being able to romance with her in ME1. She was a quarian, love between another races seen rare and required very much confidence in quarians, aldo she didn't know well Shepard.

Seeing romance option hints very early in ME2 was absolutely good. Her feelings, trust and mimics were so obvious, and you know the rest if you played heroic way and used irresistable "Shepard defence" in Flotilla.

Although I try to think Tali as a sister because of Ash, damn yes this LI situation is more beliavable and respectful than that blue squidhead highschool girl love choice.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

@Earlier posts:

You're forgetting that the first game absolutely treats fraternization as an issue. To suddenly start pretending the issue doesn't exist is inconsistent, and leads us to the conclusion that this shift is the result of something on the writers' end, not something in-universe. I get that you like Mass Effect 2 - I like the game as well. That doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws.

[InvaderErl]

Except if you choose Liara it is never ever brought up and Liara is as much under Shepard's command as Tali is so they are being COMPLETELY consistent in that regard.

[Alienmorph]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

@Earlier posts:

You're forgetting that the first game absolutely treats fraternization as an issue. To suddenly start pretending the issue doesn't exist is inconsistent, and leads us to the conclusion that this shift is the result of something on the writers' end, not something in-universe. I get that you like Mass Effect 2 - I like the game as well. That doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws.

Neither us we are. Stop treating everyone like you're the unique person with a brain here. In ME1 there are the fraternization issues because Shepard is in the military, and the two others LIs that are in the military too makes him noticing it. In the second game, HE'S NOT A MILITARY ANYMORE! So the fraternization issue don't persist. It's really that simple. Or you wanted that one half of the characters ingame pointed him screaming "You're no more a military!" all the time?

But I guess you'll continue this all over again for a guddamn long time if we don't stop it. Are you at least able to agree that we disagree and move on, or you'll try to continue to demonstrate that we're just dumb fanboys/girls blind to the writers' flaws?

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

InvaderErl wrote...

Except if you choose Liara it is never ever brought up and Liara is as much under Shepard's command as Tali is so they are being COMPLETELY consistent in that regard.

Actually, Ash talks about fraternization and Liara on certain ME1 paths. I'd imagine the real explanation has to do with different writers being assigned to the romances or something.

[InvaderErl]

She says that Liara's not part of the crew (as in she's not part of the Alliance military) and it would be okay for Shepard to enter into a relationship with her.

Last I checked Tali did not have a ranking in the Alliance military.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 08:37 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

You don't need to say something explicitly for it to be true. Because Tali never said anything about fraternisation in game, whereas Kaidan and Ashley did, suggests that it isn't an issue for aliens.

Remember, it is an alien culture where rules, laws and morals will be completely different from the ones humans have.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Alienmorph wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

@Earlier posts:

You're forgetting that the first game absolutely treats fraternization as an issue. To suddenly start pretending the issue doesn't exist is inconsistent, and leads us to the conclusion that this shift is the result of something on the writers' end, not something in-universe. I get that you like Mass Effect 2 - I like the game as well. That doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws.

Neither us we are. Stop treating everyone like you're the unique person with a brain here. In ME1 there are the fraternization issues because Shepard is in the military, and the two others LIs that are in the military too makes him noticing it. In the second game, HE'S NOT A MILITARY ANYMORE! So the fraternization issue don't persist. It's really that simple. Or you wanted that one half of the characters ingame pointed him screaming "You're no more a military!" all the time?

But I guess you'll continue this all over again for a guddamn long time if we don't stop it. Are you at least able to agree that we disagree and move on, or you'll try to continue to demonstrate that we're just dumb fanboys/girls blind to the writers' flaws?

Fraternization isn't a bad idea because there's a rule - there's a rule because it's a bad idea. ME1 seems to (kind of) understand this, ME2 less so. Once again, Occam's razor - this shift in writing is explained better by writing quality than by something in-universe, because all the in-universe explanations rely on various epileptic trees.

[InvaderErl]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


Fraternization isn't a bad idea because there's a rule - there's a rule because it's a bad idea. ME1 seems to (kind of) understand this, ME2 less so. Once again, Occam's razor - this shift in writing is explained better by writing quality than by something in-universe, because all the in-universe explanations rely on various epileptic trees.

And again LIARA. The only time the fraternization concept is brought up is when Ashley SAYS ITS OKAY for Shepard to sleep with Liara because he won't be violating regs by sleeping with her - because she is not a member of the Alliance military.

In what way is ME2 different from that approach? Because unless you can come up with some situation in which somebody said maybe you shouldn't sleep with Liara because she's a member of the crew her situation is identical to Tali's.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

You don't need to say something explicitly for it to be true. Because Tali never said anything about fraternisation in game, whereas Kaidan and Ashley did, suggests that it isn't an issue for aliens.

Remember, it is an alien culture where rules, laws and morals will be completely different from the ones humans have.

And that would be cool if they actually included that in the game. But they didn't, and there's no real way quarian psychology seems to differ from human psychology. So it's an epileptic tree, and not a plot element.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

InvaderErl wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


Fraternization isn't a bad idea because there's a rule - there's a rule because it's a bad idea. ME1 seems to (kind of) understand this, ME2 less so. Once again, Occam's razor - this shift in writing is explained better by writing quality than by something in-universe, because all the in-universe explanations rely on various epileptic trees.

And again LIARA. The only time the fraternization concept is brought up is when Ashley SAYS ITS OKAY for Shepard to sleep with Liara because he won't be violating regs by sleeping with her - because she is not a member of the Alliance military.

In what way is ME2 different from that approach? Because unless you can come up with some situation in which somebody said maybe you shouldn't sleep with Liara because she's a member of the crew her situation is identical to Tali's.

I honestly think the Liara romance was pretty questionable as well, because you're giving her orders in a combat situation. So whether or not you're obeying the letter of the law, the spirit of the thing is definitely not being upheld. Really, the whole romance thing would have worked a lot better if Shep had a guy/gal back home he/she saw on shore leave.