301 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

So then this is out the window

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

[snipped for length]

No, inconsistent characterization is bad writing.(snip) Hence, inconsistent/bad writing.

Since ME1 showed that Shepard percieved that it was okay for him to date Liara because she wasn't Alliance and this carries forth into ME2 it is consistent writing/characterization.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


And that would be cool if they actually included that in the game. But they didn't, and there's no real way quarian psychology seems to differ from human psychology. So it's an epileptic tree, and not a plot element.

Really? You mean the crews that are actually close-knit communities? Crews of ships that they LIVE AND DIE ON? You don't there's any difference between human and Quarian psychology?

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 08:52 .

[ShadowLordXXX]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


Fraternization
isn't a bad idea because there's a rule - there's a rule because it's a
bad idea. ME1 seems to (kind of) understand this, ME2 less so. Once
again, Occam's razor - this shift in writing is explained better by
writing quality than by something in-universe, because all the
in-universe explanations rely on various epileptic trees.

And
again LIARA. The only time the fraternization concept is brought up is
when Ashley SAYS ITS OKAY for Shepard to sleep with Liara because he
won't be violating regs by sleeping with her - because she is not a
member of the Alliance military.

In what way is ME2 different
from that approach? Because unless you can come up with some situation
in which somebody said maybe you shouldn't sleep with Liara because
she's a member of the crew her situation is identical to Tali's.

I
honestly think the Liara romance was pretty questionable as well,
because you're giving her orders in a combat situation. So whether or
not you're obeying the letter of the law, the spirit of the thing is
definitely not being upheld. Really, the whole romance thing would have
worked a lot better if Shep had a guy/gal back home he/she saw on shore
leave.

Sigh. That's what YOU think, and you CAN roleplay it that way. It is at least to an extent an RPG. And Shepard's thoughts and actions are extensions of what your thoughts and actions are. If you think that Shepard should not have relations with his crew thats fine. But not everyone has to see it that way.

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 21 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[InvaderErl]

Arcian wrote...

 Is this my personal opinion, and one I reserve the full right to possess and express on a public forum despite the inevitable and vocal outcry of a minority of fans zealously disagreeing with me, without the risk of suffering personal harm or punishment inflicted upon my forum account? Yes. Will you have to deal with it? Take a guess.

Talk about a persecution complex.

[Gterror]

Arcian wrote...

All romances are fanservice, but in Tali's case it wasn't implemented believably anywhere. Her diehard fans gave her a pass since they've been clamoring the fact that she wasn't an LI in ME1. I personally thought that BioWare tried way too hard to shove her allegedly "secret feelings" down our throat, much unlike Garrus who hadn't even considered FemShep as partner material before she actually suggested it.

The whole "I've been in love with you since the first time I saw you" came off as horribly, HORRIBLY cheesy and contrived. Justified as it is blatant fanservice, of course, but still incredibly bad writing. It would have been much easier to swallow if she had been more like Garrus and said, "Wait? You like me? Oh, I've never thought about it like that. I don't know... I mean, I respect you, but this would be dangerous for me because of my immune-system," and so forth, instead of the heavy-handed message that we got delivered to our faces with the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

Plus, her entire storyline, from start to finish, just screams "I was rewritten from a perky wrench wench to a belligerent, snappy, arrogant and overtly emotional moe to evoke sympathy because my life is terrible and only bad things happen to me and because I need love badly, *tears of anguish and loneliness*", while in ME1 she was this fun, perky and idealistic young pilgrim on her merry way to learn about the galaxy without a SINGLE SIGN she had any feelings for Shepard. The fact that Liara shoves this fanservice-laden statement down our throat in LotSB just makes it so much worse, as if the writers can't get enough of repeatedly taking a hatchet to her ME1 persona.

Do I have anything against Tali or the fact that she is romanceable? No. Do I have anything against her character and romance in ME2 were written preposterously bad and cringe-worthy? Yes. Is this my personal opinion, and one I reserve the full right to possess and express on a public forum despite the inevitable and vocal outcry of a minority of fans zealously disagreeing with me, without the risk of suffering personal harm or punishment inflicted upon my forum account? Yes. Will you have to deal with it? Take a guess.

Listen to this guy,he understands

[CroGamer002]

@Arcian did we get same copy of Mass Effect 1 and 2?

Because Tali is not much different from ME1 to ME2.

[Alienmorph]

Bah, I give up. Clearly I'm not enough intellingent as such people and so I'm blidly in love of a lame and bad-written character [/sarcasm]

Have fun to everyone who'll continue post here...

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

InvaderErl wrote...


So then this is out the window

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

[snipped for length]

No, inconsistent characterization is bad writing.(snip) Hence, inconsistent/bad writing.

Since ME1 showed that Shepard percieved that it was okay for him to date Liara because she wasn't Alliance and this carries forth into ME2 it is consistent writing/characterization.

Someone who you're working with that is not part of your formal command structure =/= someone who signed up for your suicide mission and changed her name to reflect the fact that she's working for you. You're also conflating letter of the law and spirit of the law again.

But I honestly think neither one makes sense, but at least the first game seems to be aware that fraternization is a problem at all.

InvaderErl wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


And that would be cool if they actually included that in the game. But they didn't, and there's no real way quarian psychology seems to differ from human psychology. So it's an epileptic tree, and not a plot element.

Really? You mean the crews that are actually close-knit communities? Crews of ships that they LIVE AND DIE ON? You don't there's any difference between human and Quarian psychology?

No matter how many capital letters you use, it doesn't change the fact that the game didn't really establish any differences between quaraian and human psychology beyond, as you mentioned, environmental factors. So something that is a bad idea leading humans is (according to what the game tells us) also a bad idea leading humans and quarians.

[InvaderErl]

And the fact that she's spunky, fiercely loyal to her people and father and extremely appreciative of Shepard if he's shown her respect.

The only new aspect of her that we've seen is she gets flustered in romantic situations which we didn't see her in ME1 so there's no contradiction there.

But why let the facts stop you?

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 09:11 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Arcian wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

@Arcian did we get same copy of Mass Effect 1 and 2?

Because Tali is not much different from ME1 to ME2.

The one thing with her character that stays consistent between the two games is her hate for the geth.

Admittedly this is Tali's only personality trait in ME1.

[CroGamer002]

Arcian wrote...

The whole "I've been in love with you since the first time I saw you" came off as horribly, HORRIBLY cheesy and contrived. Justified as it is blatant fanservice, of course, but still incredibly bad writing.

And for some reason you have no problem with Liara.
OK?

Plus, her entire storyline, from start to finish, just screams "I was rewritten from a perky wrench wench

She's still like that in ME2.
Not sure what game you played.

to a belligerent,

I'm not entirly sure what that erm means, but wasn't she always anti-Geth?

snappy,

She was always energetic.

arrogant

Wasn't she always arogant when talking about Geth?
Oh, we just happen to get Legion, great character, that she doesn't trust.


Geez, is she getting same treatment like Ashley from you?

and overtly emotional moe to evoke sympathy because my life is terrible and only bad things happen to me and because I need love badly,*tears of anguish and loneliness*"

Her father died.
I'm pretty sure most people would cry longer and louder.

Aha.

while in ME1 she was this fun, perky and idealistic young pilgrim on her merry way to learn about the galaxy

Didn't change much in ME2.
Just go more mature.

without a SINGLE SIGN she had any feelings for Shepard.

And?

The fact that Liara shoves this fanservice-laden statement down our throat in LotSB just makes it so much worse, as if the writers can't get enough of repeatedly taking a hatchet to her ME1 persona.

AND?!

Modifié par Mesina2, 21 juin 2011 - 09:16 .

[InvaderErl]

Arcian's just pulling stuff out of his rear, there are legitimate concerns that I can understand somebody having with Tali's character but I think a lot of that comes down to taste and perception, he doesn't have anything but broad generalizations.

[ShadowLordXXX]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...


So then this is out the window

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

[snipped for length]

No, inconsistent characterization is bad writing.(snip) Hence, inconsistent/bad writing.

Since ME1 showed that Shepard percieved that it was okay for him to date Liara because she wasn't Alliance and this carries forth into ME2 it is consistent writing/characterization.

Someone who you're working with that is not part of your formal command structure =/= someone who signed up for your suicide mission and changed her name to reflect the fact that she's working for you. You're also conflating letter of the law and spirit of the law again.

But I honestly think neither one makes sense, but at least the first game seems to be aware that fraternization is a problem at all.

InvaderErl wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


And that would be cool if they actually included that in the game. But they didn't, and there's no real way quarian psychology seems to differ from human psychology. So it's an epileptic tree, and not a plot element.

Really? You mean the crews that are actually close-knit communities? Crews of ships that they LIVE AND DIE ON? You don't there's any difference between human and Quarian psychology?

No matter how many capital letters you use, it doesn't change the fact that the game didn't really establish any differences between quaraian and human psychology beyond, as you mentioned, environmental factors. So something that is a bad idea leading humans is (according to what the game tells us) also a bad idea leading humans and quarians.

Just FYI, Tali didnt change her name, the admirals did.

Oh and so your perspective is if the game doesn't spoon feed you soemthing it doesn't exist? So i assume since the game never said that Aria IS Aleena(i think that was the name of the Merc Wrex talks about) she can't be her. Since the game never says the bartender on Illium is Liara's other parent she can't be despite evidence which suggests she is. The game suggests rather HEAVILY that Quarians and Humans are psychologically different., with Tali even noting that for Quarians thinking about others above themselves is something they're hardwired to do. the fact that Quarians all live on their ships suggests Quarian ideas abotu fraternization may differ substantially from Human, and frankly it may not even be Human but merely modern western concepts of it.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...


So then this is out the window

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

[snipped for length]

No, inconsistent characterization is bad writing.(snip) Hence, inconsistent/bad writing.

Since ME1 showed that Shepard percieved that it was okay for him to date Liara because she wasn't Alliance and this carries forth into ME2 it is consistent writing/characterization.

Someone who you're working with that is not part of your formal command structure =/= someone who signed up for your suicide mission and changed her name to reflect the fact that she's working for you. You're also conflating letter of the law and spirit of the law again.

But I honestly think neither one makes sense, but at least the first game seems to be aware that fraternization is a problem at all.

InvaderErl wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


And that would be cool if they actually included that in the game. But they didn't, and there's no real way quarian psychology seems to differ from human psychology. So it's an epileptic tree, and not a plot element.

Really? You mean the crews that are actually close-knit communities? Crews of ships that they LIVE AND DIE ON? You don't there's any difference between human and Quarian psychology?

No matter how many capital letters you use, it doesn't change the fact that the game didn't really establish any differences between quaraian and human psychology beyond, as you mentioned, environmental factors. So something that is a bad idea leading humans is (according to what the game tells us) also a bad idea leading humans and quarians.

Just FYI, Tali didnt change her name, the admirals did.

Oh and so your perspective is if the game doesn't spoon feed you soemthing it doesn't exist? So i assume since the game never said that Aria IS Aleena(i think that was the name of the Merc Wrex talks about) she can't be her. Since the game never says the bartender on Illium is Liara's other parent she can't be despite evidence which suggests she is. The game suggests rather HEAVILY that Quarians and Humans are psychologically different., with Tali even noting that for Quarians thinking about others above themselves is something they're hardwired to do. the fact that Quarians all live on their ships suggests Quarian ideas abotu fraternization may differ substantially from Human, and frankly it may not even be Human but merely modern western concepts of it.

Once again, epileptic trees. There's a difference between a story implying something and fans making stuff up to justify story elements.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 21 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

[InvaderErl]

I did not even see your post, I'm sorry for skipping it.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


Someone who you're working with that is not part of your formal command structure =/= someone who signed up for your suicide mission and changed her name to reflect the fact that she's working for you. You're also conflating letter of the law and spirit of the law again.

What was different about how Liara joined vs how Tali joined. They both came along of their own volition and were active members of the crew.

This statement seems to be trying to rely on those epileptic trees you mentioned, asserting there is a difference as if some exists and even using the word "signed" like Tali had to put her name on a contract even though we've no evidence of ANY of that and even as you said its an untenable position you're taking there since:

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
But I honestly think neither one makes sense, but at least the first game seems to be aware that fraternization is a problem at all.

That's not my concern. You asserted that the writing was bad because it was inconsistent. It wasn't, ME1 approached Liara in much the same way. If you don't like the idea of Shepard sleeping with anyone on the ship that's fine but that isn't what you said initially and it was what I was taking task with.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


No matter how many capital letters you use, it doesn't change the fact that the game didn't really establish any differences between quaraian and human psychology beyond, as you mentioned, environmental factors. So something that is a bad idea leading humans is (according to what the game tells us) also a bad idea leading humans and quarians.

Environmental factors affect psychology.

There is a such a thing as cultual psychology you know.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[Abispa]

Depends. I can be looked at as really sweet EXCEPT:

1) EVEN if you spend the entire first game treating her like garbage and DON'T give her the Geth data, she is still your personal Beiber groupie.

2) While it hasn't been confirmed that Shepard and Tali went "all the way," it still belittles the overriding Quarian lore that they go ape-**** over even the tiniest exposure to foreign contamination. But ME2 makes it sound like, "Hey, get the magic Mordin ointment and let's get it on!"

[CroGamer002]

@Arcian don't go smudboy on Tali.

Please don't.

I actually have big respect on you but many of your reason are just really ridiculous.

[DoNotIngest]

Arcian wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Arcian's just pulling stuff out of his rear, there are legitimate concerns that I can understand somebody having with Tali's character but I think a lot of that comes down to taste and perception, he doesn't have anything but broad generalizations.

"Look! That guy has opinions we don't like! Fetch the pitchforks!"

[InvaderErl]

Arcian wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Arcian's just pulling stuff out of his rear, there are legitimate concerns that I can understand somebody having with Tali's character but I think a lot of that comes down to taste and perception, he doesn't have anything but broad generalizations.

"Look! That guy has opinions we don't like! Fetch the pitchforks!"

I like your whole "help help I'm being repressed" routine

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 09:32 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

InvaderErl wrote...
snip

You may have misread what I said. I think the thing with Liara was implausible and questionable, but the story at least addressed it with respect to fraternization. Tali was more implausible and questionable, since she was explicitly joining Shep's crew for a suicide mission, and this sub-plot was never addressed in respect to fraternization. But the main point is that they're both pretty bad.

Fraternization has detrimental effects on the ranking officer, subordinate, and other troops. When the ranking officer and many of the other troops are human, and the subordinate in question isn't meaningfully different from a human with a strange upbringing, the things that come into play when commanding humans can be expected to come into play here.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Abispa wrote...

Depends. I can be looked at as really sweet EXCEPT:

1) EVEN if you spend the entire first game treating her like garbage and DON'T give her the Geth data, she is still your personal Beiber groupie.

2) While it hasn't been confirmed that Shepard and Tali went "all the way," it still belittles the overriding Quarian lore that they go ape-**** over even the tiniest exposure to foreign contamination. But ME2 makes it sound like, "Hey, get the magic Mordin ointment and let's get it on!"

Ah, herbal tea. The cure for bacteria, viruses, allergic reactions, and the plot

[InvaderErl]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
snip

You may have misread what I said. I think the thing with Liara was implausible and questionable, but the story at least addressed it with respect to fraternization. Tali was more implausible and questionable, since she was explicitly joining Shep's crew for a suicide mission, and this sub-plot was never addressed in respect to fraternization. But the main point is that they're both pretty bad.

First of all I would argue that ME1 addressed this topic moving forward. Ashley said it was okay for Shepard to date Liara establishing regs do not prohibit him from sleeping with non Alliance crew. It doesn't need to be resaid. Additionally, Shepard is not even Alliance military any longer - he's for lack of a better term a private contractor at that point as is Tali so there is no legal repercussions that can be levied against them unless they had signed some sort of agreement specifically prohibiting sexual relations with anyone on board the Normandy and there is no evidence that they did.

As far as me misreading however, that quote I posted about the inconsistency is what you wrote. If you have other issues with the idea of Shep romancing members of the team then fine but the idea that ME1 presented fraternization between Shepard and non Alliance crewmembers at all differently than how it is portrayed in ME2 is outright false.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Fraternization has detrimental effects on the ranking officer, subordinate, and other troops. When the ranking officer and many of the other troops are human, and the subordinate in question isn't meaningfully different from a human with a strange upbringing, the things that come into play when commanding humans can be expected to come into play here.

Tali DOES bring this up. She does say she doesn't want Shepard distracted and that she doesn't want to endanger the mission so this very concept you're talking about IS addressed.

Now apart from all of this, I want to restate that we're dealing with fiction here and fiction that is designed to be entertaining and romantic situations are a part of that medium. Series such as Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Starship Troopers, etc. all showed fraternization and in that regard Mass Effect is no different as a piece of entertainment.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 juin 2011 - 09:55 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

InvaderErl wrote...
snip

Well, I can't speak to Trek (haven't watched enough of it) Star Wars (I'm trying to pretend the prequels + EU don't exist) and anything but the Verhoven version of Starship Troopers, but Battlestar Galactica is actually a very good comparison. That show absolutely depicts fraternization, and on balance depicts it as having a corrosive effect on morale, discipline, impartiality, and so on. It also depicts all that against the backdrop of "humanity is frakked unless we repopulate it posthaste." I'm okay with that, because it addresses the complex issues involved head-on instead of with handwaves. I don't get the same feeling of mature storytelling playing Mass Effect - it seems more like wish fulfillment or fanservice than an attempt to tell a good story.