209 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluko]

Slidell505 wrote...

ME has lots of plotholes. The fact that we never use the recording devices that are apparently in our armor for one.

This.

But in such cases (as the OP) this one is relatively minor, and acceptable. Just about any fiction will have plotholes. The real key is making sure most folks don't notice. (ME2 kind of gaffed a bit here as there are perhaps a bit too apparent.) But if you look at anything with microscopic vision you'll notice the surface is "bumpy".

Actually there's nothing to suggest Sovereign wasn't in contact with say the other Reapers. But most of the Reapers are sleeping or hundreds of thousands of lightyears away. The issue in ME1 was Sovereign couldn't get the Keepers to do their job.

The Citadel has to link to some sort of Relay in Dark Space (or something of that nature). Unless the Citadel Relay is activated there's nothing the Reapers can do except find the next nearest Relay (According to Arrival the Alpha Relay apparently.)

[CaptainZaysh]

@Paulinius: Saren kept the arms open from within the Citadel. That's what he used the Conduit for.

[Someone With Mass]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...
The Alpha links to the Citadel.

It's reasonable to suppose a thousand Reapers assaulting the Citadel wouldn't be daunted by a few Turians getting pissed at them, and they would overtake the Citadel immediately, getting the same result as they originally intended.

Only thing is that they'd be detected long before arriving at the Citadel. Because it's not like: jump into relay and poof, they're at the Citadel, if you think that. No, that takes hours, if even days. 

With the Citadel relay, they'd arrive at the heart of everything without having to enter the galaxy itself first.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

MisterJB wrote...

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...
Wouldn't it make more sense to make use of the backup rather than risking failure with the regular plan?

Why?
Failure of the regular plan would involved the destruction of just one Reaper, whereas sucess would have spared the resources it would take to use the backup plan. 

But, because the Reapers are stupid, they leave only one vangard, why?

And with that, the Citadel fleets seemed pretty useless without the Alliance, Sovreign could've gone right up to the station & blown it to hell, ignoring all that Saren crap.

And again I ask; what's the point of a backup plan if you ignore it & try to fix a massive problem that could be easily circumvented.

[Paulinius]

shinobi602 wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

They can do their decapitation strike by getting to the Alpha Relay. It can reach the Citadel directly. Also, as far as we've seen the Reapers are invincible in combat. The only reason Sovereign was killed was because he was directly controlling the Saren-husk and was killed when he was directly controlling it. Harbinger learned not to do that as we see at the end of ME2.

Edit: I forgot about the derelict Reaper. Other than that, the Reapers don't have much to fear militarily from organics.

Except, they can be killed, that's the whole point of Mass Effect 3.

They can be killed because of Sovereign's mess-up which gave organics and Shepard a several year heads-up. If they immediately invaded when Sovereign couldn't activate the Citadel, this would all have been a moot point.

Don't get me wrong, I still love ME. But for whatever reason, I do like pointing out (perceived) plot holes.

[Paulinius]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...
The Alpha links to the Citadel.

It's reasonable to suppose a thousand Reapers assaulting the Citadel wouldn't be daunted by a few Turians getting pissed at them, and they would overtake the Citadel immediately, getting the same result as they originally intended.

Only thing is that they'd be detected long before arriving at the Citadel. Because it's not like: jump into relay and poof, they're at the Citadel, if you think that. No, that takes hours, if even days. 

With the Citadel relay, they'd arrive at the heart of everything without having to enter the galaxy itself first.

The relays offer instantaneous travel between connecting relays.

The Alpha Relay connects with the Citadel.

Hence instant travel to the Citadel.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Only thing is that they'd be detected long before arriving at the Citadel. Because it's not like: jump into relay and poof, they're at the Citadel, if you think that. No, that takes hours, if even days. 

With the Citadel relay, they'd arrive at the heart of everything without having to enter the galaxy itself first.

The AR links to all the relays they want, including the Citadel access ones; that would take less than a second if the speed in-game is to be believed.

A thousand Reapers would wipe the floor with the Citadel forces & seize the station before they could react.

If they need foot-soldiers, they could makes husks.

[CaptainZaysh]

@Bungie: to get the Citadel databases. Vigil explicitly says this.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Bungie: to get the Citadel databases. Vigil explicitly says this.

Ignoring for a moment that an organic civilization could very well not keep their records on the Citadel, the Reapers could do this themselves with virtually no effort.

[meiwow2]

We still don't know how it was that the reapers made it to the galaxy in me3 so after we learn that then we can discuss if me1's plot made sence or not.

[CaptainZaysh]

They couldn't lightning strike the Citadel if the ward arms were closed. Also remember the Prothean extinction took centuries. The game lore isn't what you think it is.

[Paulinius]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Paulinius: Saren kept the arms open from within the Citadel. That's what he used the Conduit for.

Good memory, I forgot that.

You have a point. If whoever is controlling the Citadel has enough time to close the arms, then that would be a complication.

The Reapers could still turn off the Citadel Relay, but I guess they won't be able to shut off the other relays without control of the Citadel.

[Davie McG]

The same way they got to the batarian system in arrival, the long way using FTL. I'm wondering why the reapers do the cycle at all, I mean it must be a good reason if your willing to risk your entire species to continue it.

[Someone With Mass]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

The AR links to all the relays they want, including the Citadel access ones; that would take less than a second if the speed in-game is to be believed.

A thousand Reapers would wipe the floor with the Citadel forces & seize the station before they could react.

If they need foot-soldiers, they could makes husks.

An in-game jump takes a second, yes. A story jump can take hours. 

Even if they traveled at the speed of light, going from the edge of the galaxy to near the center of it will take time.

Think of it like this: Light travels at 299 792 458 m / s

It takes eight minutes for the light from the sun to reach Earth. Eight minutes.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

They couldn't lightning strike the Citadel if the ward arms were closed. Also remember the Prothean extinction took centuries. The game lore isn't what you think it is.

I'm forced to emphasize the thousands of Reapers that would be there.

After, they could take their time

[CaptainZaysh]

This is why the Prothean plan was so brilliant. They knew exactly how the next Reaper attack would play out. They subverted one key part of it, and threw the Reapers into confusion. Sovereign HAD to spend time figuring out what the problem was. Calling its investigation into why their galactic death button had inexplicably stopped working a plot hole is ridiculous.

[Faolin]

The Alpha Relay connects with the Citadel.
Hence instant travel to the Citadel.

"Connects to the Citadel" probably means "connects to the relay that organic races use all the time in order to access the citadel". I'm assuming since no-one figured out the Citadel even WAS a relay until each harvest started, the Citadel isn't connected to the main relay network. It's a custom built, long-range high-load mass relay for a specific purpose (bringing the Reapers back).

So if a thousand reapers popped through the citadel access relay, presumably Citadel Control would freak out and lock the station arms. Which, as others have said, it was only prevented from doing last time by Saren breaking in and killing everyone in Citadel Control. The arms did eventually close, but they did so only to protect Sovereign from attack, because Saren wanted them to. Note that when the arms did open, Sovereign was destroyed (and there's no evidence that this was only because killing the Saren hybrid dropped his shields. Occam's Razor would imply it was the ginormous fleet pounding him with missiles that did that).

Modifié par Faolin, 20 juin 2011 - 12:50 .

[Davie McG]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

The AR links to all the relays they want, including the Citadel access ones; that would take less than a second if the speed in-game is to be believed.

A thousand Reapers would wipe the floor with the Citadel forces & seize the station before they could react.

If they need foot-soldiers, they could makes husks.

An in-game jump takes a second, yes. A story jump can take hours. 

Even if they traveled at the speed of light, going from the edge of the galaxy to near the center of it will take time.

Think of it like this: Light travels at 299 792 458 m / s

It takes eight minutes for the light from the sun to reach Earth. Eight minutes.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

This is true, at FTL its taken them 6 months to get from the destroyed alpha relay to earths system.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

Someone With Mass wrote...

An in-game jump takes a second, yes. A story jump can take hours.

A Mass Relay sends things almost instantly.

Even if they traveled at the speed of light, going from the edge of the galaxy to near the center of it will take time.

They travel thousands of times faster, if Ashley's statement that 12 ly is a day's cruise for a Alliance Ship is true. Presumably the Reapers could go faster.

It takes eight minutes for the light from the sun to reach Earth. Eight minutes.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

fully, but being FTL capable really renders this a moot point

Modifié par Bungie.Net Sucks, 20 juin 2011 - 12:49 .

[Reapinger]

Davie McG wrote...

The same way they got to the batarian system in arrival, the long way using FTL. I'm wondering why the reapers do the cycle at all, I mean it must be a good reason if your willing to risk your entire species to continue it.

This I feel will be revealed. Their task is never-ending and without any apparent goal. Also, Vigil explicitly says that the reaping takes centuries. It's not like a few thousand starships can hunt through the entire galaxy quickly. As for defeating all the reapers, I think that's impossible as well. I see an alternative plot path happening to killing ALL of the reapers. Can't say what. 

[Someone With Mass]

Davie McG wrote...
This is true, at FTL its taken them 6 months to get from the destroyed alpha relay to earths system.

Not to mention all the stops they must do in order to discharge their cores, which should tack on at least a few more hours by itself.

[zeoduos]

********SPOILER*************

During all the E3 madness, Commander Hudson mentioned that Cerberus is working with the Reapers. Given this information, it is probable and actually very likely that TIM called in the reapers months or days before Shepard either destroys or saves the Collector Base.

[CaptainZaysh]

@Bungie: it could be a zillion Reapers. By using the Alpha relay they alert the whole galaxy. Plenty of time for someone to press the button that closes the ward arms, and gives the organics the fighting chance that us the ENTIRE FREAKING PLOT of ME3.

[Balek-Vriege]

The Reapers know that a straight fight is risky for them and gives races time to fight back and find their weaknesses. That's the whole point of the Citadel. Destroy the governing power, cut off the relay network and purge each system one at a time with overwhelming force over hundreds of years. Not to mention, there may be good reason why they like the cloak and dagger approach so much, because each fatality may amount to racial genocide to them. When that comes into play, using the Citadel seems even more important.

Now for the events of Mass Effect to occur, we have to assume the Citadel is the only place the Relay network can be shutdown all at once. We know now that there was at least one back door, being the Alpha Relay. Basically things could have easily gone down like this:

Plan A: The usual. Send transmission to activate Citadel Mass Relay and warp the Reaper fleets back for another invasion. Unfortunately the Keepers won't accept the transmission (Protheans messed that up).

*In between here Sovereign could have updated the rest of the Reapers. For all we know they could have started flying back here, possibly hundreds of years before ME1 but also leading to...*

Plan B: Do it manually. Indoctrinate some minions, gather a force to take the Citadel, activate the Relay afrom within. This still gives the Reapers the element of surprise, total relay lockdown and no true threat of Reaper deaths. Again, Prothean obstructionism combined with Shepard's efforts in ME1 foil this plan.

*Sovereign is dead and the Reapers could have noticed and started flying back at this point as well.*

Plan C: Use our oldest/elite minions in the Galaxy (collectors) to prepare for our arrival while eliminating the Human threat. Build a new Reaper out of Humans and use it to either activate the Citadel, cause chaos until we arrive or just get the Humans Reaperfied (their chosen race this time around) so we can concentrate on killing everyone in the Galaxy when the invasion begins. Events of ME2 destroy the Collector threat (maybe depending on choice) and Human Reaper baby #1.

*By this point we know the Reapers are on their way*

Plan D (or part of C): Use the Alpha Relay to get back. Events of Arrival prevent this from happening.

Plan E: Fly back, beeline for earth and gather forces along the way, crush/reaperfy Humans ASAP, kill (reaperfy if possible) shepard, pacify core homeworlds, take the Citadel and return to Plan A.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 20 juin 2011 - 12:51 .

[AnthonyDraft]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...
Wouldn't it make more sense to make use of the backup rather than risking failure with the regular plan?

Why?
Failure of the regular plan would involved the destruction of just one Reaper, whereas sucess would have spared the resources it would take to use the backup plan. 

But, because the Reapers are stupid, they leave only one vangard, why?

And with that, the Citadel fleets seemed pretty useless without the Alliance, Sovreign could've gone right up to the station & blown it to hell, ignoring all that Saren crap.

And again I ask; what's the point of a backup plan if you ignore it & try to fix a massive problem that could be easily circumvented.

They leave only one vanguard because that's the way they do things?

Remember, Geth also helped Sovereign to deal with the Council fleet. Also Sovereign wouldn't blow Citadel - too vital for Reapers

That's why it's a back up plan. If the primary one completely fails, back up plan is the next concern.