209 réponses à ce sujet

[shinobi602]

Paulinius wrote...

They can be killed because of Sovereign's mess-up which gave organics and Shepard a several year heads-up. If they immediately invaded when Sovereign couldn't activate the Citadel, this would all have been a moot point.

Don't get me wrong, I still love ME. But for whatever reason, I do like pointing out (perceived) plot holes.

You and I both know there will be a way the Reapers can be killed in ME3. Not every Reaper in ME3 will mess up like Sovereign, Bioware has definitely come up with some plan to take them down.

Modifié par shinobi602, 20 juin 2011 - 12:51 .

[MajorStranger]

Why do everyone with the police squad car avatar are such douche?

¿No guste?¡No juegue!
T'aime pas? Joue pas!
Lieben Sie nicht? Spielen Sie nicht!
Don't like? Don't play!

[ME-ParaShep]

TheCrakFox wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers aren't actually intelligent, everything they say and do is prerecorded and predetermined. Like a giant killer Furby from space.

Or the Reapers were just too cocky to believe that any space faring intelligent life couldn't stand a chance against them and thus became their undoing.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Bungie: it could be a zillion Reapers. By using the Alpha relay they alert the whole galaxy. Plenty of time for someone to press the button that closes the ward arms, and gives the organics the fighting chance that us the ENTIRE FREAKING PLOT of ME3.

They would be within a few hundred thousand KM of the Citadel, with (Compared to thousands of Reapers) no interference; they could literally rape the Citadel fleets & take the Citadel with no fight AT ALL.

[Bluko]

TheCrakFox wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers aren't actually intelligent, everything they say and do is prerecorded and predetermined. Like a giant killer Furby from space.

Furbinger:"We are your genetic destiny!"

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

MajorStranger wrote...

Why do everyone with the police squad car avatar are such douche?

¿No guste?¡No juegue!
T'aime pas? Joue pas!
Lieben Sie nicht? Spielen Sie nicht!
Don't like? Don't play!

I love the series, and I consider it my favourite, I'm just guiving feedback on what I see as a big hole in the story.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

Bluko wrote...

TheCrakFox wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers aren't actually intelligent, everything they say and do is prerecorded and predetermined. Like a giant killer Furby from space.

Furbinger:"We are your genetic destiny!"

Have my babies

[Paulinius]

Faolin wrote...

The Alpha Relay connects with the Citadel.
Hence instant travel to the Citadel.

"Connects to the Citadel" probably means "connects to the relay that organic races use all the time in order to access the citadel". I'm assuming since no-one figured out the Citadel even WAS a relay until each harvest started, the Citadel isn't connected to the main relay network. It's a custom built, long-range high-load mass relay for a specific purpose (bringing the Reapers back).

So if a thousand reapers popped through the citadel access relay, presumably Citadel Control would freak out and lock the station arms. Which, as others have said, it was only prevented from doing last time by Saren breaking in and killing everyone in Citadel Control. The arms did eventually close, but they did so only to protect Sovereign from attack, because Saren wanted them to. Note that when the arms did open, Sovereign was destroyed (and there's no evidence that this was only because killing the Saren hybrid dropped his shields. Occam's Razor would imply it was the ginormous fleet pounding him with missiles that did that).

Good point. It didn't specify in Arrival if the Alpha Relay connects to the relay built into the Citadel or to the connventional relay next to the Citadel.

If it's the former, then when activated, it might cause a bunch of stuff to light off and alarm the Citadel's inhabitants.

[CaptainZaysh]

@Bungie: ward arms. Shut. Oops.

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Bungie: ward arms. Shut. Oops.

Reapers jam communication.  Reapers kill all survivours outside. Reapers wait until they are forced to open for lack of supplies. Reapers kill everyone.

This is completely ignoring the fact that they could've just swarmed the station in seconds & taken it over.

[Casper DM]

I thought the Citadel was a mass relay which would give the reapers not only entry into the galaxy but allow them to travel anywhere within it from that one location. In addition the Citadel holds a lot of information regarding peoples whereabouts and technology which would be useful in their war efforts not to mention it is also the location of each civilisations leaders which if taken out would leave everyone disorganised.

As for the alpha relay it was a back-up in case whoever stayed behind (Sovereign) failed, we took it out and so instead of having a perfectly executed attack where they know where everyone is, what tech they have and can get their almost instantly, the reapers now have to attack the galaxy like a massive wave from one end to the other which gives everyone a chance to escape and organise a defense which is what we are going to be doing in ME3.

[CaptainZaysh]

It's NOT a fact. Sovereign couldn't get inside the ward arms without Saren's infiltration attack. You're just wrong.

A siege is not as good an outcome as a lightning victory for reasons too obvious to discuss, surely?

You're describing the fact they didn't go first with an inferior plan as a plot hole.

[Il Divo]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

1.Reapers jam communication.  

2. Reapers wait until they are forced to open for lack of supplies. Reapers kill
everyone.

3.This is completely ignoring the fact that they could've just swarmed the station in seconds & taken it over.

1. Do we even know if that's possible?

2. Assuming they would open. Also assuming that the Citadel itself doesn't have enough supplies to last almost indefinitely.

3. Only if they make it to the Ward arms in time, which even for a Reaper might be pushing it. How far out are the access relays from the actual Citadel?  

[JayhartRIC]

Also even after Sovereign landed on the station, he still needed Saren to give him control. That was the keepers job until the Protheans messed it up. That was the whole point of ME1. Did you even play it?

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

It's NOT a fact. Sovereign couldn't get inside the ward arms without Saren's infiltration attack. You're just wrong.

A siege is not as good an outcome as a lightning victory for reasons too obvious to discuss, surely?

You're describing the fact they didn't go first with an inferior plan as a plot hole.

They could've spent 2 years doing what it took hundreds to do.

Sovereign by himself probably couldn't, although he could've tried, but thousands of Reapers could've done it easily.

[Paulinius]

Il Divo wrote...

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

1.Reapers jam communication.  

2. Reapers wait until they are forced to open for lack of supplies. Reapers kill
everyone.

3.This is completely ignoring the fact that they could've just swarmed the station in seconds & taken it over.

1. Do we even know if that's possible?

2. Assuming they would open. Also assuming that the Citadel itself doesn't have enough supplies to last almost indefinitely.

3. Only if they make it to the Ward arms in time, which even for a Reaper might be pushing it. How far out are the access relays from the actual Citadel?  

As for point number one, Sovereign jammed communication on Eden Prime. For such an advanced race, I would assume they have jamming techniques. 

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

JayhartRIC wrote...

Also even after Sovereign landed on the station, he still needed Saren to give him control. That was the keepers job until the Protheans messed it up. That was the whole point of ME1. Did you even play it?

Why? Couldn't they just indoctrinate someone to do it really quickly? Or collect someone to do it before they attack?

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

Il Divo wrote...

1. Do we even know if that's possible?

2. Assuming they would open. Also assuming that the Citadel itself doesn't have enough supplies to last almost indefinitely.

3. Only if they make it to the Ward arms in time, which even for a Reaper might be pushing it. How far out are the access relays from the actual Citadel?  

1. Sovereign did it on Eden Prime

2. They don't have infinite supplies, and they would likely open after a certain time.

3. For a Reaper it would be hard, for thousands not so much.

[Davie McG]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Bungie: ward arms. Shut. Oops.

Reapers jam communication.  Reapers kill all survivours outside. Reapers wait until they are forced to open for lack of supplies. Reapers kill everyone.

This is completely ignoring the fact that they could've just swarmed the station in seconds & taken it over.

That was the plan, but as has been explained the way they get to the citadel in seconds is that the keepers activate the citadel as a relay.

The protheans that went back to the citadel after the reapers went back to dark space made a virus that made the citadel (and thus the keepers because vigial clarifies that they respond only to the citadel due to evolution and not the reapers.) ignore sovereigns signal to activate the citadel as a realy.

Sovereign then has no option but to manualy activate the citadel using the indoctrinated saren. Shepard foils this plan.

Harbinger is making a new reaper that has something to do with the reapers next plan. Again Shepard foils this plan.

The reapers decide "f*ck this lets just go using FTL and use the fleet to get to the Alpha relay so we can get to the citadel and get this started". Again Shepard foils this plan.

Reapers head to next availible relay after the alpha realy which is the one in pluto's orbit but since thats earth's system and the species they are after they just begin the reaping here.

All this makes fairly decent sense, I fail to see the biggest plot hole ever.

Modifié par Davie McG, 20 juin 2011 - 01:27 .

[Smeelia]

One way that makes sense is that the Keepers were supposed to both activate the Citadel as a relay and send the "wake-up call" to the Reapers (which is built into the Citadel).  It's implied they're likely to be in a kind of hibernation (meaning power consumption would also be a concern) and they'd probably remain so until woken by the signal.

It's likely that Sovereign was able to send the signal to wake the Reapers and warn them but wasn't able to activate the relay in time.  That would mean the Reapers have been moving since the end of ME1 and were attempting to put their backup plan into motion (the Alpha Relay plan, which was then also foiled).

I think that deals with it reasonably well, there'll always be questions but it's not totally ridiculous or anything.

Paulinius wrote...

As for point number one, Sovereign jammed communication on Eden Prime. For such an advanced race, I would assume they have jamming techniques.

The game pretty much starts with you receiving a transmission from Eden Prime, including footage showing Sovereign, so they obviously don't have good enough jamming techniques.

Modifié par Smeelia, 20 juin 2011 - 01:19 .

[Bungie.Net Sucks]

Davie McG wrote...

They could've gone against the Prothean changes by justusing the AR in the first place & saving hundreds of years of time

[Il Divo]

Paulinius wrote...

As for point number one, Sovereign jammed communication on Eden Prime. For such an advanced race, I would assume they have jamming techniques. 

Hmm, could you refresh my memory which part that was? Not that I don't belive you, just trying to recall if it was Ashley or someone else who originally set it.

[CaptainZaysh]

@Bungie: NO, they COULDN'T. One zillion Reapers are not faster than one Reaper. Sovereign WAS NOT FAST ENOUGH to get inside the arms before they closed.

Your supposedly superior plan results in:
- no understanding of why the keepers are broken
- a siege at the Citadel instead of a victory
- no access to the Citadel data normally used to plan the next few centuries of war from
- and the ass kicking the Reapers are going to get in ME3

The reason they didn't do what you think they should have done is that it's a much worse plan than what Sovereign very nearly pulled off.

[Davie McG]

To change what the Protheans did they would have had to have access to that main control thing in the citadel tower. Which Sovereign tried to do but failed to do.

[Il Divo]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

1. Sovereign did it on Eden Prime

2. They don't have infinite supplies, and they would likely open after a certain time.

3. For a Reaper it would be hard, for thousands not so much.

1. Which was also on a much smaller scale. Jamming a small unprepared human colony and jamming the Galactic Hub of the entire galaxy are two different things. The former might be easy for sovereign. The latter? Potentially not, especially when you consider that the Citadel itself is Reaper technology at its fullest.

2. Says who? In Mass Effect, we did not see Sovereign/the Geth attempt to negotiate with anyone while attacking the Citadel. I do not see why organic civilization would think to be spared that they would willingly open the arms. Keep in mind, organic fleets still have the ability to travel through the Relays, which could potentially make things difficult for the Reapers.

3. To my knowledge, in large numbers, Reapers are not able to move faster.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 juin 2011 - 01:24 .