209 réponses à ce sujet

[Legbiter]

Executive summary?

[CaptainZaysh]

OP thinks the Reapers have abilities he's invented for them, can't understand why they are not used.

[Someone With Mass]

Close the Citadel, and it'll be like mosquito versus the windshield of a car.

[Legbiter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

OP thinks the Reapers have abilities he's invented for them, can't understand why they are not used.

Ah ok. One of those.

[Paulinius]

Il Divo wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

As for point number one, Sovereign jammed communication on Eden Prime. For such an advanced race, I would assume they have jamming techniques. 

Hmm, could you refresh my memory which part that was? Not that I don't belive you, just trying to recall if it was Ashley or someone else who originally set it.

When you're on Normandy in the briefing room talking to Anderson and Nilhus, you get a distress call from Eden Prime. When you see Sovereign coming down to land is when the signal cuts off. As Smeelia said, their jamming doesn't seem to have that long of a range. Alliance forces were able to communicate until Soveregin was planetside.

[JayhartRIC]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...

Also even after Sovereign landed on the station, he still needed Saren to give him control. That was the keepers job until the Protheans messed it up. That was the whole point of ME1. Did you even play it?

Why? Couldn't they just indoctrinate someone to do it really quickly? Or collect someone to do it before they attack?

So now they have to expose themselves to get some ground forces and hope they make it to the station before the arms close.  Then the ground forces have to fight all the way from the docking bay to the top of the citadel tower versus heavy resistance.  

I am almost certain the Citadel is an ecosystem in and of itself, able to sustain life indefinitely.  There are millions of people on the Citadel.  Plus Sovereign had no clue what the Conduit actually was.   It could have been some kind of anti-Reaper nuke.  It makes sense to find out what it is before coming in full speed.

We also don't know the ramifications of the Reapers flying all the way here.  It has been speculated that they may be low on energy and be exhausted from the trip and more vulnerable.  Who knows, maybe some of them didn't even make it and the Reapers had to cannibalize some of their own to get here.

Modifié par JayhartRIC, 20 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[JayhartRIC]

double post

Modifié par JayhartRIC, 20 juin 2011 - 01:31 .

[Shotokanguy]

I didn't read much of this topic, so I don't know what conclusions have been reached in this discussion, but I will say in any talk I've seen of the overarching plot to the trilogy, I really haven't ever found a single plot hole.

Part of the problem is we still don't know the whole story.

Modifié par Shotokanguy, 20 juin 2011 - 01:31 .

[Il Divo]

Paulinius wrote...

When you're on Normandy in the briefing room talking to Anderson and Nilhus, you get a distress call from Eden Prime. When you see Sovereign coming down to land is when the signal cuts off. As Smeelia said, their jamming doesn't seem to have that long of a range. Alliance forces were able to communicate until Soveregin was planetside.

Curious. I thought what happened was that the video camera got destroyed, which was why everything went blank. This is about when you see gunfire come in the direction of the video feed. I thought that was why Joker mentions that the com 'goes dead'.

I could be wrong though.

[HTTP 404]

makes sense. Why didn't the collectors and sovereign just wait for the reapers to come in from dark space? and launch a three pronged attack? the collectors attacking maybe the terminus/omega. Sovereign and the heretics geth with Saren attacking the citadel and the rest of the reapers coming in through batarian space.

That is a legitmate concern OP. I hope in Me3 there will be light shed on this, emphasis on "hope."

Simple explanation/copout would be that the reapers have drained power for having to manually travel through dark space and thus have weakened shields? more vunerable?

That was just an example but its possible to explain why me1 story, me2 story happened before me3 reaper invasion.

[Smeelia]

JayhartRIC wrote...

I am almost certain the Citadel is an ecosystem in and of itself, able to sustain life indefinitely.

This is an interesting point, it does seem to work that way but Vigil mentions that the Prothean scientists who went to the Citadel probably didn't find anything to survive with.  It's possible that all of the food and water are brought to the station by the visiting races but it does seem like it'd be a lot of work (although maybe it's expected that every race claiming the Citadel will make the effort and it's likely that the Keepers help).  Anyway, it does make me wonder if those Prothean scientists will be relevant at some point in the future (perhaps they managed to get some other useful work done that will turn up).  I think it'd make a decent background for what we need to win in ME3 (at least partly) but then new players in ME2 probably wont have heard much about the scientists so it may not work that well.

Il Divo wrote...

Curious. I thought what happened was that the video camera got destroyed, which was why everything went blank. This is about when you see gunfire come in the direction of the video feed. I thought that was why Joker mentions that the com 'goes dead'.

I got that impression too but it could be either really.  It's worth noting that the Collectors seem quite skilled at stealthily attacking colonies and cutting them off without anyone noticing (and they use Reaper based technology above what most races use).  Still, they do tend to attack minor colonies that may not even have significant communication systems (most are relatively new colonies as well) so it'd be a different matter to jam communications for the entire fleet around the Citadel and the Citadel itself.

Modifié par Smeelia, 20 juin 2011 - 01:45 .

[Paulinius]

 As for Reaper jamming or lack there of: www.youtube.com/watch

At 9:00, Joker says all comm traffic stops. It could be jamming or their comm relays could have been destroyed. As stated, the Collectors silenced colonies before they were hit. I assume the Reapers have some sort of jamming technology, but I don't know to what extent.

[Rulid]

Big misunderstanding seems to be from the curious function of the AR, which was the plot point of ME2.
(But as ME2's story was not much of a big reveal, it might have not borne buch of an impression)

So here's the gist of it as I understand it
Alpha Relay: hidden relay. used for plan B, which is: make a Reaper from scratch, then invade


Citadel: not linked to relay network. used for invasion purposes only.
"citadel relay": the network node that is physically closest to the Citadel. Floats outside the citadel.
"citadel link from Ilos": the small mini relay standing in the fountain. used to transport Prothean scientists from Ilos
Reason that Prothean scientists can't survive alone in the citadel, while millions can: Same reason 5 people can get stranded in the desert, while an army can search and occupy an oasis and build a small city based on rudimentary harvesting systems.

Plan A: Vanguard gets left behind. Vanguard lolls around a few dozen millenia. Smells civilization working up the citadel to  a point deemed "freshly baked". Indoctrinates some overzealous hobo with fear and intimidation. Hobo makes ready for Vanguard to pollinate the Citadel. Reapers return via Citadel.
Problem: Hobo was a dummy. Vanguard was an idiot.

Plan B: Long distance indoctrinated sleeper agents harvest enough Organic Mush to create a Reaper at the back door to replace the function of Vanguard.
Problem: Baby reaper died in embryo.

All of Plan A and Plan B is far less expensive than walking.

It's not as if Plan A didn't have a failsafe. It's just that failsafe also failed.

The sense of plothole comes from the fact that we don't know how the reapers will eventually get here
AND
assume that the plan stays the same as Plan A and B, viz a vis, a surprise attack.

The probability that, as others have stated, the Reapers just throw out the element of surprise and just
decide to mow down on Sentient Civs of the galaxy is probably what ME3 is about. "All out war".
Which is naturally less frugal but effective, nonetheless (at least per Reaper audit)

Furthermore, the arrival of the Reapers hasn't happened yet.
Hence, cannot by definition be a plot hole.
1) At worst, a major vacancy for a Deus ex machina.
2) or that they are notplanning a surprise attack now. (Change of plans happens. It's not good to simply extrapolate everything from everything that's happened before)

[Weskerr]

"Plot hole" is being thrown around so much that it's lost its meaning on these forums. The Mass Effect Series is not finished yet and so we do not know, thoroughly and unequivically,  why the Reapers did not just bullrush the Milky Way from "dark space" to begin with. All we know is that using the Citadel as a mass relay to shortcut into the galaxy has been a method the Reapers have used since they first started their genocidal cycle (well, we don't even know if this is true, since the current galactic civilization does not have documented history dating farther back than the Protheans). However, we also know that the Protheans disrupted this suprise attack Reaper tactic by fiddling and tampering with the signal the Keepers received from them to activate the Citadel mass Relay. It's safe to assume, however, that the Reapers used this tactic, without fail, every 50,000 years to complete their objective, since there is nothing in the story that indicates that it had ever failed before. For all we know, the Citadel mass relay may not be a necessity for the Reapers to invade the galaxy, but simply the most expedient and convenient means of doing so. Even after the Keepr signal was disrupted, we know that the Reapers then tried two different tactics to cull the galaxy. 1: Indoctrinating the Rachni. 2. Indoctrinating the Geth and Saren. And after that ended it failure, tjhey tried using the Collectors (although it's not clear how exactly creating a human Reaper would help them gain entry into the galaxy). This failed too! Perhaps, after 3 attempts and 3 failures, the Reapers decided to just "walk" to the Milky Way. What these different failed tactics imply and indicate is that the Reapers do not want a direct confrontation or war with the galactic forces. They want to avoid this scenario. Why? Maybe it's because they are not invincible and realize that they could possibly lose an all out war. Apparently they are right because we know that ME3 will have an ending in which the Reapers are defeated.

Modifié par Weskerr, 20 juin 2011 - 02:41 .

[onelifecrisis]

Well I apparently missed this thread until now. I've not read all of it, but basically yeah you're right OP, and you're not the first to notice this.

I see a lot of people commenting that ME already has a lot of plot holes. So what? Because plot holes already exist, we shouldn't care when more of them appear? That's... illogical.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that when I was thinking about this plot hole I came up with a possible explanation for part of it. When Plan A failed thanks to the Protheans, the Reapers could have split their forces in half. Half set off towards the Galaxy (a journey which would take them hundreds of years) and the other half waited at the Dark Space Relay for Sovereign to open it. In this case, the Reapers we fight in ME3 are the first group... and the rest are still in Dark Space...

But this still doesn't explain what they hoped to achieve by building that human reaper, especially given that there was no way for it to be completed before the Arrival.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 20 juin 2011 - 02:49 .

[Whatever42]

The Reapers have a cycle. In this cycle, they immediately seize control of the Citadel and shut down the relay system. This cuts off all the various systems from each other, leaving them all in the dark to what's happening and preventing them from coordinating activity. They also seize all the census records, allowing them to plan a campaign. They then send indoctrinated agents across the galaxy as spies and saboteurs to confuse resistance and make sure no one escapes.

If the Reapers were to re-enter the galaxy to launch an assault against the Citadel then that might have been noticed. That warning might have caused the council to close up the Citadel, making it almost impossible to assault. If that happens then the whole cycle is at risk.

The plan throughout history also relied on the Reapers taking control of the Citadel and bringing in the whole Reaper fleet right down in the middle of things. It's a plan that has worked for tens-of-millions of years so they stick with it. It would have worked too if not for those meddlesome kids! You can't simply say it was a bad plan because it failed. Good plans sometimes fail just through really bad luck.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 juin 2011 - 02:56 .

[SSV Enterprise]

1. An attack from the Citadel would have brought quick defeat to the galaxy. Same with their backup plan, the Alpha Relay. But now there's stuck with a war that from all appearances they should win, but they'll have to make quite a bit more of an effort at it, and have more potential for losses.

2. Trucking it on normal FTL all the way back to the galaxy probably would have used up a lot of power and fuel.

Overall, coming in through the Citadel was preferable strategically.

[HTTP 404]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I forgot to mention that when I was thinking about this plot hole I came up with a possible explanation for part of it. When Plan A failed thanks to the Protheans, the Reapers could have split their forces in half. Half set off towards the Galaxy (a journey which would take them hundreds of years) and the other half waited at the Dark Space Relay for Sovereign to open it. In this case, the Reapers we fight in ME3 are the first group... and the rest are still in Dark Space...

But this still doesn't explain what they hoped to achieve by building that human reaper, especially given that there was no way for it to be completed before the Arrival.

I actually like this idea!  It would be quite something if the reapers attacking earth is just a "small" group of reapers sent after the the citadel didn't activate and the rachni failed.  Which would make the trek for the group of reapers to travel through dark space 2000 years to reach the milky way.  while mass group of reapers continue to wait in dark space.  1st group of reapers fight their way through batarian space, harvest humans, and take over citadel to let remaining forces in.

The only problem I see here is that why don't all the reapers just go and I want all the reapers to just be dead by end of Me3.

However, I like the idea that the reapers were travelling to the milky way through dark space since 1CE, over 2000 years ago.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 20 juin 2011 - 03:07 .

[shepskisaac]

Davie McG wrote...

The same way they got to the batarian system in arrival, the long way using FTL. I'm wondering why the reapers do the cycle at all, I mean it must be a good reason if your willing to risk your entire species to continue it.

I would *assume* the genetic material they're partially build from simply gets consumed over time. It is an organic matery after all that they're not able to reproduce since they're not organics. That would mean oldest reapers die. They create new reapers using new races that developed after each extinction and the reproduction cycle continues. Sovereign's "we have no begging and no end" is BS, they're not gods (at least I hope so lol)

Modifié par IsaacShep, 20 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[onelifecrisis]

HTTP 404 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

I forgot to mention that when I was thinking about this plot hole I came up with a possible explanation for part of it. When Plan A failed thanks to the Protheans, the Reapers could have split their forces in half. Half set off towards the Galaxy (a journey which would take them hundreds of years) and the other half waited at the Dark Space Relay for Sovereign to open it. In this case, the Reapers we fight in ME3 are the first group... and the rest are still in Dark Space...

But this still doesn't explain what they hoped to achieve by building that human reaper, especially given that there was no way for it to be completed before the Arrival.

I actually like this idea!  It would be quite something if the reapers attacking earth is just a "small" group of reapers sent after the the citadel didn't activate and the rachni failed.  Which would make the trek for the group of reapers to travel through dark space 2000 years to reach the milky way.  while mass group of reapers continue to wait in dark space.  1st group of reapers fight their way through batarian space, harvest humans, and take over citadel to let remaining forces in.

The only problem I see here is that why don't all the reapers just go and I want all the reapers to just be dead by end of Me3.

However, I like the idea that the reapers were travelling to the milky way through dark space since 1CE, over 2000 years ago.

Firstly let me say that I also want ME3 to be a proper end to the story and for that reason I also don't like the idea of any reapers being left in Dark Space... but I like plot holes even less, especially big ones.

As for why the reapers split their forces in half, I'd say they were just hedging their bets? *shrug*

[Heimdall]

Here's the way I see it:

Plan A: Vanguard uses the Citadel so that the Reapers can surgical strike and shatter the Galactic nervous center before anybody knows what's happening(Foiled)

Plan B: Collectors accelerate the plan to create a human Reaper in order to replace the vanguard and have another crack at Plan A (Foiled)

Plan C: FTL over to the galaxy and use the Alpha Relay, losing the element of surprise and possibly expending vast resouces, weakening them. (Foiled, though this may explain why the Reapers seem to be lingering on Earth for so ling, making up for lost resources)

Plan D: FTL over the species homeworld of the guy who's been screwing over the last three plans and start shooting (Success! For now...)

[Heimdall]

Being exceedingly patient and arrogant, the Reapers would not give up on Plan A until there was no chance of success (Sovereign's death)

[shepskisaac]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Here's the way I see it:

Plan A: Vanguard uses the Citadel so that the Reapers can surgical strike and shatter the Galactic nervous center before anybody knows what's happening(Foiled)

Plan B: Collectors accelerate the plan to create a human Reaper in order to replace the vanguard and have another crack at Plan A (Foiled)

Plan C: FTL over to the galaxy and use the Alpha Relay, losing the element of surprise and possibly expending vast resouces, weakening them. (Foiled, though this may explain why the Reapers seem to be lingering on Earth for so ling, making up for lost resources)

Plan D: FTL over the species homeworld of the guy who's been screwing over the last three plans and start shooting (Success! For now...)

Pretty much how it seems to be. Including the fact the Reapers are dumb as hell since they should've FTL to the AR as soon as the could after Sovereign failed. They shouldn't assume anything other then their plan getting discovered any minute after Sovereign exposed himself and lost.

[HTTP 404]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Here's the way I see it

Plan A: Citadel relay does not activate due to Prothean interference with Keepers.

Plan B:  Reapers indoctrinate the Rachni in attempts to reclaim citadel (I like to think sovereign was involved but not defeated) but the salarians bring the Krogan to defeat the Rachni.

Plan C: Vanguard uses the Citadel so that the Reapers can surgical strike and shatter the Galactic nervous center before anybody knows what's happening(Foiled)

Plan D: Collectors accelerate the plan to create a human Reaper in order to replace the vanguard and have another crack at Plan A (Foiled)

Plan E: FTL over to the galaxy and use the Alpha Relay, losing the element of surprise and possibly expending vast resouces, weakening them. (Foiled, though this may explain why the Reapers seem to be lingering on Earth for so ling, making up for lost resources)

Plan F: FTL over the species homeworld of the guy who's been screwing over the last three plans and start shooting (Success! For now...)

here's what I fixed.  The reapers had two plans before Me1.

[Heimdall]

I just folded those as an extension of Plan A