209 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Here's something. Apparently Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni 2000 years in the past.. Why? As a response to the keepers being 'unindoctrinated'? If so, what was he doing for the 2000 years after that?

Seems like 2000 years is plenty of time for the reapers to fly in and take over, and it would have made sense too, since they apparently knew their plan A wasn't going to work.

For 2000 years.

Modifié par Shinian2, 20 juin 2011 - 11:56 .

[Abispa]

Well, without access to jump gate technology, traveling through space takes a hell of a long time.

[Vena_86]

Maybe Sovereign had a hidden agenda and he tried to make the whole galaxy his **** and do whatever so he becomes king of the reapers. I don't know, just try to find somekind of explanation that does not render the whole plot of the first two games redundant.

[goofyomnivore]

Maybe the Rachni lied?

[Gill Kaiser]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

"But it's too far to 'walk'!" I found myself thinking, but then I realized again; the Reapers were like 1 minute away from activating the Alpha Relay & pouring in during the Arrival DLC, so it would've not taken all that long apparently. Even with this, when did the Reapers start traveling towards the Milky Way? Like a moment after the Collector Base was destroyed?

They started as soon as Sovereign failed in Mass Effect 1, meaning it took them more than 2 years of solid FTL to reach the edge of the galaxy. Who knows to what extent it weakened them?

Also, Sovereign was arrogant. It never expected to fail.

[Repzik]

We aren't even sure if they are using FTL to reach the Milky Way at all.

The reason they didn't just straight up attack is that they wanted to just destroy all communications/disable relay network so it's ridiculously easy. Even for the reapers, fighting a unified galaxy (with communications/travel up) would be a pain.

As to the rachni, I assumed that they indoctrinated them either to just sow chaos and keep more factions from unifying (they succeeded), or to just test which was the 'strongest' species to use for their reaper baby thing.

[Whatever42]

Shinian2 wrote...

Here's something. Apparently Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni 2000 years in the past.. Why? As a response to the keepers being 'unindoctrinated'? If so, what was he doing for the 2000 years after that?

Seems like 2000 years is plenty of time for the reapers to fly in and take over, and it would have made sense too, since they apparently knew their plan A wasn't going to work.

For 2000 years.

Again, a frontal attack is the worst possible outcome for the Reapers. They want to keep their cycle intact. A frontal attack, where the organics can close up and defend the Citadel so the Reapers cannot seize it and control the relay network is very bad for them.

When you're tens-of-millions of years old, what's a couple thousand years to give stealth a shot to keep the cycle on track? Try to think like a Reaper.

[Noble 1]

He couldn't have just sent a message. The only reason that the races of ME can communicate at FTL speeds in the FTL Comm relays throughout the galaxy. I doubt there is one where the reapers were chillin. Idk why they didn't have a Quentum Entanglement Device like the SR2

[Balek-Vriege]

Noble 1 wrote...

He couldn't have just sent a message. The only reason that the races of ME can communicate at FTL speeds in the FTL Comm relays throughout the galaxy. I doubt there is one where the reapers were chillin. Idk why they didn't have a Quentum Entanglement Device like the SR2

True.  I just watched the Vigil dialogue on youtube a couple hours ago and it states Sovereign had to come up with a plan all on his own.  Which leads to Shep's question about why he didn't just attack the Citadel himself and Vigil states the odds were against him if he tried solo.  Also goes into detail about why Sovereign may have used Geth etc.  It's a good watch and sort of kills this "plot hole" argument.


www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

[Imperator_Prime]

As I understand it, the whole reason that launching the Reapers' assault from the Citadel was so important was because as the center of galactic civilisation (per their plan), by hitting the Citadel first they could not only lock down the mass relay network galaxy-wide (isolating their prey for easier harvesting) but they'd start their culling with access to all the census data kept there, which would tell them exactly where the developed worlds were.

Imagine a slightly different context, if you were an alien invader attacking the United States today, intent on hitting the largest population and economic centres first, which would make more sense?  Sweeping ashore at San Francisco and then fanning out, or dropping directly onto Washington DC to wipe out Congress and the Pentagon, then going-- government records in-hand-- on targeted strikes against military installations, ports, major cities, etc.  The critical point in this case is you have to imagine Washington having been there, planted by you as bait, when the natives crossed the Bering land bridge; you have to imagine the natives finding it and making it their capital, because "holy ****, Running Bear, look at this city we found!"  And you have to imagine that when Europeans arrived later they decided to set up shop there, too (whether by conquering the natives or peacefully forming a government with them). 

So the Citadel as the starting point for the invasion wasn't meaningless; it was intended to make their conquest as efficient as possible by shutting down vital infreastructure that the 'lower beings' would need to fight or flee, and by delivering the Reapers all the intel they could ever hope for.

[Nightdragon8]

I honestly don't think you people understand what the term plothole means.... just throwing it out there because you saw it on the internet.

IMO Sovereign did what he did because it probably felt embarrassed about not being able to do its job. Because the reapers are individual of eachother. The reason it waited so long was because what happened after the Rachni wars? The Krogan where rebelling. It seemed the galaxy was in an uproar. And the last thing you wanna do while everyone is in a war is to show up and try to take over. Because granted it took alot of ships to take out Sovereign it is still killable. So it had to wait till everyone had let ther guard down. And considering the Asari can live for such a long time it would take a long time for the time to get peoples guard put down.

[Rip504]

OP. Why do you think the Reapers know about the humans? Because when Sovereign died at the Citadel. Sovereign sent one last update that Shepard and Humanity had stopped it from taking the Citadel.(And all through ME1.) Time for plan B. The Alpha Relay.The Reapers were going to take the Citadel by surprise and divide the galaxy. Now their plans have changed. The Reapers then Contacted the Collectors to start harvesting humans while they made their way to the milky way, The Reapers could have been on their way since the end of ME1. The Reaper fleet could have been in contact with Sovereign the whole time. Sovereign was sending a signal from the Citadel to let the Reapers know the Citadel was theirs & it was time to move.

Edit:
The Reapers know Shepard killed Sovereign,and have been interested in him since. Even before ME2.That's why the Collector Ship attacks the Normandy. That was 2 years before ME2. The Reapers had been on their way. It just took them awhile. The Citadel was the fastest and deadliest way to enter the Galaxy. If Sovereign didn't tell the Reapers about Shepard and Humanity. Who Did? The Collectors? Well if that is the case ,then Sovereign simply failed to take the Citadel and the Collectors contacted the Reapers to let them know what was up. (Meaning Sovereign was to far to contact the Reapers. When the Reapers got closer the Collectors picked up where Sovereign had failed.Plan B.)

Modifié par Rip504, 21 juin 2011 - 07:17 .

[Someone With Mass]

Or the Collectors could've just monitored the extranet and some communications and found out that Shepard was responsible for everything, considering that he was the hero in the battle of the Citadel. News reporters eat that stuff up.

[Robodragon]

if you think about it there is actually very little plot holes there just some things aren't pushed in front of you. Sovereign like every one knows is the reaper vanguard ment to use the citdel to open up a gate for the rest which of corse didn't work thanks to the protheans. since that didn't work he used the rachnai to weaken the defences of everyone else so he could sweep in and manually flip the switch, again didn't work out.
Of course we know what happens with ME1 so let just skip that part.
Harbinger was most likly a back up plan or more likly ment to make a new reaper everytime the other reapers invade and before they do he selects a new speices or even several to become one or more new reapers so they know to collect some of them.
The reapers are very patient so a few thousand years aren't much to them (remeber how long it took for the protheans left over to wake up and they couldn't cause once again reapers are very thorough and don't mind waiting a long time to begin or even clean up there invasions in prep for the next one)
The alpha relay was most likly an emergancy back up if things gone south to many times and they wanted another but much less effective means to get to the galaxy quickly, for instance they might have only been able to come in a few at a time and that would take longer then they like and also could leave them bottled up if the races quickly went at them in that area. and yes while they are very paitent if they ended up having to use the alpha relay at all that means they can't risk waiting anymore or for much longer.
Of course remeber that reaper are arrogent and if you did the same thing for who knows how long with out anyone being able to stand in your way wouldn't you be stunned or just plain pissed.

[Tripedius]

This thread (up to page 4) got me thinking. The ME plot does make some sense (never perfect sense) if the Reapers are actually very afraid to be killed. I know this sounds strange since they are uber space godmonsters, but think about it. Every reaper is a nation. The've always been. They probably don't have a real concept of death as they don't experience it a lot. We know they already lost a reaper once and although together they might be invincable, they are also scared that they might loose one of their own. Maybe losing one reaper is to the reapers what it would be like for the galaxy to loose an entire species.

[Manan]

Why reapers used collectors again?

What? That can not be true!

Only for another mass effect game... thats all... collectors were out of plot. They are the biggest plothole. What for they created human reaper huh?

[PrinceOfFallout13]

wasnt the purpose of the human reaper to replace sovereign?

[ZLurps]

Noble 1 wrote...

He couldn't have just sent a message. The only reason that the races of ME can communicate at FTL speeds in the FTL Comm relays throughout the galaxy. I doubt there is one where the reapers were chillin. Idk why they didn't have a Quentum Entanglement Device like the SR2

According to ME Retribution novel Reaper nanides can utilise QEC and there is also Codex entry in Arrival DLC that mentions QEC.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Arrival:_The_Reapers%27_Secrets
"The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and
information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be
similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into Reaperterritory."

[devSin]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

wasnt the purpose of the human reaper to replace sovereign?

I think it's just propagation. EDI says their purpose may simply be reproduction (of course the form doesn't make sense, since there's nothing actual you can get from soupy human remains, except maybe syphilis, but whatever).

And given that this is all we know of their motivations... the Collectors were more than sufficient to harvest probably any human colony world except maybe Earth. They could have easily grabbed all of Eden Prime, for instance, flying around in their corrupted Prothean ship and retreating to their corrupted Prothean station that is improbably located in the galactic core (seriously, Ilos remains inviolate for untold years by just being out in the middle of nowhere, with the only relay that links there gone missing, but your advanced alien mind makes you think "Hey, let's move our station to the most hostile place in the galaxy! For no reason! Where there just happens to be a relay! For even less reason!").

The Reapers are needed to do what, exactly? And now that the Collectors are gone, why don't they just wait until the current storm dies down? Human lifespans are so short; Shepard will be dead in a hundred years, and nobody else really believes they're real.

The Reapers are defective. Maybe they were all inbreeding out in deep space and creating new Reapers from Reaper juice (instead of the juice of organic species) and the new Reapers are all mental incompetents. RAWR WE ARE THE MASTER PLAN.

Modifié par devSin, 21 juin 2011 - 10:44 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Something's missing from this thread...oh yeah, it's the OP.

Gentlemen: I think we just got trolled.

[sponge56]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

wasnt the purpose of the human reaper to replace sovereign?

Pure speculation and never hinted at in ME2, its just something people have decided taken as true in order to yell that ME2 was a load of rubbish

[Phaedon]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

"But it's too far to 'walk'!" I found myself thinking, but then I realized again; the Reapers were like 1 minute away from activating the Alpha Relay & pouring in during the Arrival DLC, so it would've not taken all that long apparently. Even with this, when did the Reapers start traveling towards the Milky Way? Like a moment after the Collector Base was destroyed?

Afaik, canonically, Arrival takes place 6 months after Arrival, and 2180-era FTL engines don't allow visit more than one system without a Mass Relay in the cluster, let alone the hundreds or thousands that the Reapers would have to pass.

There are a lot of logical flaws on the OP, but I don't have the time to explain each one right now.

[utdan]

devSin wrote...

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

wasnt the purpose of the human reaper to replace sovereign?

I think it's just propagation. EDI says their purpose may simply be reproduction (of course the form doesn't make sense, since there's nothing actual you can get from soupy human remains, except maybe syphilis, but whatever).

Since arrival came out i think its possible that the human-reaper thing could of just been a massive distraction to keep the alliance busy and take their attention away from the alpha relay. Though obviously this is speculation and further cheapens the main story of ME2. Another explanation i can think of is that it was a test to see if humans where compatible with reaperfication.

And given that this is all we know of their motivations... the Collectors were more than sufficient to harvest probably any human colony world except maybe Earth. They could have easily grabbed all of Eden Prime, for instance, flying around in their corrupted Prothean ship and retreating to their corrupted Prothean station that is improbably located in the galactic core (seriously, Ilos remains inviolate for untold years by just being out in the middle of nowhere, with the only relay that links there gone missing, but your advanced alien mind makes you think "Hey, let's move our station to the most hostile place in the galaxy! For no reason! Where there just happens to be a relay! For even less reason!").

They put it in the most hostile place because its the most hostile place and without a reaper IFF is impossible to get to, therefore impossible to attack. 

The Reapers are needed to do what, exactly? And now that the Collectors are gone, why don't they just wait until the current storm dies down? Human lifespans are so short; Shepard will be dead in a hundred years, and nobody else really believes they're real.

True but in 100 years the galactic community will have 100 years to advance their technology and potentially be an even bigger threat without Shepard.

The Reapers are defective. Maybe they were all inbreeding out in deep space and creating new Reapers from Reaper juice (instead of the juice of organic species) and the new Reapers are all mental incompetents. RAWR WE ARE THE MASTER PLAN.

When it comes to how long they waited to attack i think its because they were waiting for the most ideal species for reaperfication. From the comments Harbinger makes about your squad mates respective species it seems humans are the prefered species so it would make sense that Sovereign would attempt to start the invasion shortly (in reaper terms) after we arrived on the galactic scene.

As for all the indoctrination well its better to have as much help as possible and with how vicious the indoctrinated Rachnii are they would make a brilliant clean up crew after the main invasion was finished.

EDIT: changed wording

Modifié par whoISthatgirl, 21 juin 2011 - 12:49 .

[esalor]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Reapers know that a straight fight is risky for them and gives races time to fight back and find their weaknesses. That's the whole point of the Citadel. Destroy the governing power, cut off the relay network and purge each system one at a time with overwhelming force over hundreds of years. Not to mention, there may be good reason why they like the cloak and dagger approach so much, because each fatality may amount to racial genocide to them. When that comes into play, using the Citadel seems even more important.

Now for the events of Mass Effect to occur, we have to assume the Citadel is the only place the Relay network can be shutdown all at once. We know now that there was at least one back door, being the Alpha Relay. Basically things could have easily gone down like this:

Plan A: The usual. Send transmission to activate Citadel Mass Relay and warp the Reaper fleets back for another invasion. Unfortunately the Keepers won't accept the transmission (Protheans messed that up).

*In between here Sovereign could have updated the rest of the Reapers. For all we know they could have started flying back here, possibly hundreds of years before ME1 but also leading to...*

Plan B: Do it manually. Indoctrinate some minions, gather a force to take the Citadel, activate the Relay afrom within. This still gives the Reapers the element of surprise, total relay lockdown and no true threat of Reaper deaths. Again, Prothean obstructionism combined with Shepard's efforts in ME1 foil this plan.

*Sovereign is dead and the Reapers could have noticed and started flying back at this point as well.*

Plan C: Use our oldest/elite minions in the Galaxy (collectors) to prepare for our arrival while eliminating the Human threat. Build a new Reaper out of Humans and use it to either activate the Citadel, cause chaos until we arrive or just get the Humans Reaperfied (their chosen race this time around) so we can concentrate on killing everyone in the Galaxy when the invasion begins. Events of ME2 destroy the Collector threat (maybe depending on choice) and Human Reaper baby #1.

*By this point we know the Reapers are on their way*

Plan D (or part of C): Use the Alpha Relay to get back. Events of Arrival prevent this from happening.

Plan E: Fly back, beeline for earth and gather forces along the way, crush/reaperfy Humans ASAP, kill (reaperfy if possible) shepard, pacify core homeworlds, take the Citadel and return to Plan A.

This.

[aftohsix]

 See my sig.  Best explanation of "plot hole" ever