209 réponses à ce sujet

[Eurhetemec]

aftohsix wrote...

 See my sig.  Best explanation of "plot hole" ever

Sometimes I wish we could vote for a post to "win" a thread. I would vote for your post/sig combo.

[Lady Olivia]

I sort of stopped reading after seeing this excellent post that the OP and the people who agree with him totally ignored:

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Reapers know that a straight fight is risky for them and gives races time to fight back and find their weaknesses. That's the whole point of the Citadel. Destroy the governing power, cut off the relay network and purge each system one at a time with overwhelming force over hundreds of years. Not to mention, there may be good reason why they like the cloak and dagger approach so much, because each fatality may amount to racial genocide to them. When that comes into play, using the Citadel seems even more important.

Now for the events of Mass Effect to occur, we have to assume the Citadel is the only place the Relay network can be shutdown all at once. We know now that there was at least one back door, being the Alpha Relay. Basically things could have easily gone down like this:

Plan A: The usual. Send transmission to activate Citadel Mass Relay and warp the Reaper fleets back for another invasion. Unfortunately the Keepers won't accept the transmission (Protheans messed that up).

*In between here Sovereign could have updated the rest of the Reapers. For all we know they could have started flying back here, possibly hundreds of years before ME1 but also leading to...*

Plan B: Do it manually. Indoctrinate some minions, gather a force to take the Citadel, activate the Relay afrom within. This still gives the Reapers the element of surprise, total relay lockdown and no true threat of Reaper deaths. Again, Prothean obstructionism combined with Shepard's efforts in ME1 foil this plan.

*Sovereign is dead and the Reapers could have noticed and started flying back at this point as well.*

Plan C: Use our oldest/elite minions in the Galaxy (collectors) to prepare for our arrival while eliminating the Human threat. Build a new Reaper out of Humans and use it to either activate the Citadel, cause chaos until we arrive or just get the Humans Reaperfied (their chosen race this time around) so we can concentrate on killing everyone in the Galaxy when the invasion begins. Events of ME2 destroy the Collector threat (maybe depending on choice) and Human Reaper baby #1.

*By this point we know the Reapers are on their way*

Plan D (or part of C): Use the Alpha Relay to get back. Events of Arrival prevent this from happening.

Plan E: Fly back, beeline for earth and gather forces along the way, crush/reaperfy Humans ASAP, kill (reaperfy if possible) shepard, pacify core homeworlds, take the Citadel and return to Plan A.

I don't see anything wrong with this theory, it patches the "big plot hole" beautifully.

Re: the bolded part. The protheans/collectors are actually their newest minions - the ones created in the last cycle.


As for:

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Noble 1 wrote...

He couldn't have just sent a message. The only reason that the races of ME can communicate at FTL speeds in the FTL Comm relays throughout the galaxy. I doubt there is one where the reapers were chillin. Idk why they didn't have a Quentum Entanglement Device like the SR2

True.  I just watched the Vigil dialogue on youtube a couple hours ago and it states Sovereign had to come up with a plan all on his own.  Which leads to Shep's question about why he didn't just attack the Citadel himself and Vigil states the odds were against him if he tried solo.  Also goes into detail about why Sovereign may have used Geth etc.  It's a good watch and sort of kills this "plot hole" argument.

We can safely presume that the Reapers always had the ability to communicate instantly through quantum entanglement technologies. It doesn't fit with ME1, that's true, which is why we should accept it as a retcon. 

The only thing I want to add is this:

Reapers have so far been represented as extremely powerful, almighty, invincible. But their significant efforts to win through rather covert and subtle strategies imply that they are far from that. They must have some major weakness that will be revealed in ME3.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 21 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[StowyMcStowstow]

Bungie.Net Sucks wrote...

So I've been thinking not all that hard about Mass Effect, having watched the mind-raping, orgasmic E3 gameplay.

So I started thinking of the whole situation for a second, and I was like, "WTF? This makes no sense!"

What do I mean? I'll elaborate.

So, as established by the books & ME1, Sovreign was flying around the galaxy, collecting indoctrinated pawns to assault the Citadel.......... or whatever, for hundreds of years. But then I thought for a quarter of a second; "Wait, aren't the Reapers Billion-year old death gods, with advanced technology? Couldn't Sovreign just have the Reapers contacted, then tell them to hoof it over?"

You heard me; assuming Sovreign wasn't a dunce, he could've easily seized a communications relay, or sent the message himself, and alert the Reapers of the complications. 

This is a pretty reasonable goal I would think; after all, Harbinger was controlling the Collector General from the Galactic void, so it seems reasonable to send a brief message. Wait..... How did Harbinger wake up agai..........

"But it's too far to 'walk'!" I found myself thinking, but then I realized again; the Reapers were like 1 minute away from activating the Alpha Relay & pouring in during the Arrival DLC, so it would've not taken all that long apparently. Even with this, when did the Reapers start traveling towards the Milky Way? Like a moment after the Collector Base was destroyed? So I'm inclined to believe that it took them around........ a month or so to reach the Alpha Relay, give or take a few weeks/months, it's insignificant to death gods, who are said by Vigil to "Be very patient".

With all you've just read (In this thread made for educational purposes), do you think for a moment that the whole plot of Mass Effect makes any sense anymore? I mean really, call me out, I'd love to be wrong here, but it just seems like Sovreign dun goofed, it seems like he had no basic intelligence at all, and his motives seem odd.

And don't say "The Reapers were going towards the galaxy ever since Sovreign woke up!" that's BS; if that were true, why did Sovreign bother doing anything anyway?  Wouldn't it have made sense to wait a few hundred years (Short time for a death god) for his buddies then cluster-......."Pound" the Citadel forces?

"The novels explain everything!" 

No

The novels are pertient to the game's story, but having all this massively-convienient plot laziness covered up with an optional book & not the media of primary concern is rather absurd, and it's a poor excuse for such a disasterous conclusion.

So please tell me I'm wrong, I'd truly like to be, Mass Effect is my favourite series.



I ninja'd the plot

 

Think of it like this: A USMC Force Recon team operates usually as scouts (hence the recon), and also as infiltration teams. They can report to the HQ, but the HQ can usually do nothing to assist in case of any oopsies that go on. They must rely on themselves and maybe an AC-130 Spectre. They also do not expect their mission to fail. If you recall in ME1, Sovereign got mighty close to activating the Citadel Relay. 

So basically Sovereign didn't contact the other Reapers because he was A) suppose to be on a sneak attack and Because he expected to complete the mission. From there, the Reapers moved into plan B, otherwise known as the Collectors. Now they have Plan C: hoof it. 

Modifié par StowyMcStowstow, 21 juin 2011 - 06:35 .

[luzburg]

i like what StowyMcStowstow sayes, when plan A failed the reapers turned their focus on the humans useing the collectors to gather information and building a reaper (maybe to try the citadel thing again or to finish it themself later) when they know the humans are the most advanced species they invade and the humans are their primary target

the former indoctritatons of species (rachni) whas probably to make them fight ecother so they could observe the tecnology and concluded that the existing species was to primetive and in me1 the sovergin is probably shure that the existing races has reaced their peak an desidet to start the atack. and when humans destroys him they want to find out more since humans is a "new " species

Modifié par luzburg, 21 juin 2011 - 06:56 .

[Nightdragon8]

Wait we need to look at the after effects of Rachni wars. It made them NOT open up other relays. THe Council put a ban on opening relays. Because they don't want another war "for no reason"

[darth_lopez]

in Mass effect 1 you prevented the reaper sneak attack, THey still want the element of suprise so that when they do strike all the races will be like O.O! then they turtle up to protect their worlds. This is when the collectors are implemented to suprise, divide, and weaken galactic society by removing the reapers percieved critical threat humans. If they reeduce human numbers and create human reapers inside the galaxy they can attack from within and the outside with ease and isolating the systems from eachother preventing a unified fleet. remember that the citadel is the heart of the relay network or something like that to effectively cut off the organics from eachother one needs the citadel if you enter with out the citadel the chance for a unified fleet remains and defeat is certaintly a possibility. so it's safe to say that the goal of the human reaper(s) and the collectors was ultimately to raise an army on the interior covertly and capture the citadel manually summon the reaper fleet and then be on their merry way. When that plan failed they apaprently started moving very very fast toward the galaxy or a second'ry relay.

I propose the "reaper relay" (that is the counterpart to the citadel) can link to just about any other relay that was rigged, in a simlar way to how the citadel would've been in ME 1, to let them through (keep in mind they need the citadel relay to  truly control traffic still). Enter the Reaper Artifact in Arrival This wasn't just to alert their presence this was a back up plan. It's point indoctrinate a crew that could be taught or told how to adequately adjust relay settings to allow for reaper arrival through a back up relay. And what's her face did just that and lured shepard to the area of the arrival in hopes of the reapers killing him upon contact.

Now things get a bit simpler This means the reapers never needed to engage in standard FTL to reach our galaxy until they were just on the edge, when the relay was destroyed lets imagine the reapers stopped in mid flight with now that there was no "mass anchor" on the other side of the route.  This solves the "how did they get here so fast with in a 1-6 month period o.O" question it also explains why they were going to use that relay in particular and why they didn't use another or just beam to another one. Once they hit our galaxy however i would assume they could use the relays without alteration (i'm assuming that the alteration involves distance or linking to a seperate relay network).

Now on the subject on radioing for help. The collector base seemed to be all reaper tach right? well it's likely that used a different communication system than we do. Remember that even on the internet today everything you do or say can be monitored and just about anyone smart enough could find it. The government certaintly coudl see what your doing at 4 am on the internet if they wanted to. IF sovereing tried to beam a comm signal through our equipment (assuming they do not have super long range radios and rely on comm buoys and such like we do) Not only would he be exposed as an extragalactic entity bent on destroying organic life but we could also trace the signal (or so i would guess that at least the salarians could) to it's end point. Not only would we know what they're planning but We would also no where they are. So to conceal the reapers no such message was sent.

Solved?

[ReluctantMind]

A few thoughts to throw in with apologies for any duplication of previous statements.

1. The Reapers are arrogant and overconfident, as a species and as individuals. Sovereign described the Reapers(himself) as "without weakness". When the Keepers failed to work and the original plan fell apart I could easily see him telling the other Reapers "It's okay guys, I've got this covered, after all I am without weakness" until he got himself destroyed. Who knows what the penalty among the Reapers is for that kind of failure.

2. The Reapers could be 100,000 light years from the galactic rim. When they were first building relays and hatching their godlike incomprehensible to us plans they could have detailed a few Reapers to accelerate to FTL and drag a relay way into dark space to build their future safe haven. Another Relay would be placed a few months travel outside the galactic rim where it would not be detected, but would be a backup destination that could be reached from their safe haven allowing a much reduced travel time with no chance of discovery by us poor galaxy bound mortals.

3. We have yet to find out what the cost to the Reapers will be of having to fly here rather than go through the Citadel Relay. They may arrive in a much depleted state or with reduced numbers from their journey making it actually possible to oppose them.

[landis963]

ReluctantMind wrote...

A few thoughts to throw in with apologies for any duplication of previous statements.

1. The Reapers are arrogant and overconfident, as a species and as individuals. Sovereign described the Reapers(himself) as "without weakness". When the Keepers failed to work and the original plan fell apart I could easily see him telling the other Reapers "It's okay guys, I've got this covered, after all I am without weakness" until he got himself destroyed. Who knows what the penalty among the Reapers is for that kind of failure.

2. The Reapers could be 100,000 light years from the galactic rim. When they were first building relays and hatching their godlike incomprehensible to us plans they could have detailed a few Reapers to accelerate to FTL and drag a relay way into dark space to build their future safe haven. Another Relay would be placed a few months travel outside the galactic rim where it would not be detected, but would be a backup destination that could be reached from their safe haven allowing a much reduced travel time with no chance of discovery by us poor galaxy bound mortals.

3. We have yet to find out what the cost to the Reapers will be of having to fly here rather than go through the Citadel Relay. They may arrive in a much depleted state or with reduced numbers from their journey making it actually possible to oppose them.

1.  Well, if it's worse than death, Sovereign got the long end of the stick then.  
2.  Why did they need the Alpha Relay then?
3.  That might work, although the "fall of Earth" trailer shows that they're going at it hard.  

[Kekkis]

ReluctantMind wrote...

A few thoughts to throw in with apologies for any duplication of previous statements.

1. The Reapers are arrogant and overconfident, as a species and as individuals. Sovereign described the Reapers(himself) as "without weakness". When the Keepers failed to work and the original plan fell apart I could easily see him telling the other Reapers "It's okay guys, I've got this covered, after all I am without weakness" until he got himself destroyed. Who knows what the penalty among the Reapers is for that kind of failure.

2. The Reapers could be 100,000 light years from the galactic rim. When they were first building relays and hatching their godlike incomprehensible to us plans they could have detailed a few Reapers to accelerate to FTL and drag a relay way into dark space to build their future safe haven. Another Relay would be placed a few months travel outside the galactic rim where it would not be detected, but would be a backup destination that could be reached from their safe haven allowing a much reduced travel time with no chance of discovery by us poor galaxy bound mortals.

3. We have yet to find out what the cost to the Reapers will be of having to fly here rather than go through the Citadel Relay. They may arrive in a much depleted state or with reduced numbers from their journey making it actually possible to oppose them.

2. Do we really know that Reapers build everything? Citadel, Mass Relays and Reapers could have been made by some ancient civilization, that had "Quarian moment" with their ships. "Oops, we just made few too powerful and smart spaceships and now they are destroying us".

After that Reapers have just been using tech from their former masters to create new Reapers and to get energy. They might not know how to build new Citadel, so they can´t afford to destroy it by accident, if they attack it by using full force. They need it, if they win and they can start using plan A again.