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[Lunatic LK47]

Cainne Chapel wrote...
Even with 1 pt left over...which was annoying, but anyway, you could still fill out about 2 powers to max and the other two to varying degrees, which was more than enough I feel.

Just wondering, are you referring to the squadmates or Shepard? I know Shepard could max out five skills in ME2 last time I checked.

[vader da slayer]

"Henchmen Damage" I am getting a 1920's crimelord feel here. wonder what garrus looks like with a tommy gun and one of those 1920 era mob hats

TommyH wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

In ME1, there was no evolution at all for the last level of the Abilities...

Javier, I don't think this is correct. In ME1 the last level did still give a liitle bit extra of whatever... more shields (Barrier), longer duration (Marksman, Lift)... They were mostly irrelevant for practical purposes as "advanced" level was mostly sufficient (IMHO), but still... a little bit extra.

Just saying.

some powers didn't some did. Barrier did have its "master" level at 12 poitns while electronics and sabotage had there's at 8.

Modifié par vader da slayer, 20 juin 2011 - 10:45 .

[Bozorgmehr]

TommyH wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

In ME1, there was no evolution at all for the last level of the Abilities...

Javier, I don't think this is correct. In ME1 the last level did still give a liitle bit extra of whatever... more shields (Barrier), longer duration (Marksman, Lift)... They were mostly irrelevant for practical purposes as "advanced" level was mostly sufficient (IMHO), but still... a little bit extra.

Just saying.

In ME1 there's only one path to upgrade your powers - in ME2 you have the option to evolve your powers into two different versions (at rank 4). I think that's what Javier's saying and ME3 will have powers that can be evolved multiple times (instead of only once like in ME2). That should result in a lot more build / power diversity (assuming those evolutions are reasonably well balanced) which is always a good thing

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 20 juin 2011 - 12:25 .

[javierabegazo]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

TommyH wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

In ME1, there was no evolution at all for the last level of the Abilities...

Javier, I don't think this is correct. In ME1 the last level did still give a liitle bit extra of whatever... more shields (Barrier), longer duration (Marksman, Lift)... They were mostly irrelevant for practical purposes as "advanced" level was mostly sufficient (IMHO), but still... a little bit extra.

Just saying.

In ME1 there's only one path to upgrade your powers - in ME2 you have the option to evolve your powers into two different versions (at rank 4). I think that's what Javier's saying and ME3 will have powers that can be evolved multiple times (instead of only once like in ME2). That should result in a lot more build / power diversity (assuming those evolutions are reasonably well balanced) which is always a good thing

Yes! Precisely what I meant. The only problem in ME2 for me was the sheer lack of abilities for each squadmate. Most of them could only have 4 powers per, 3 of which  in battle, and if you wanted to unlock the evolved forms, only two powers to use in battle. This eventually led me to simply cheat using the Save Editor so I could unlock all the evolved forms of everyone's powers.

TW2 had a similar problem, of locking you out of specializing until you had established a "base skill set". I think that when it comes to abiltiy screens, having no power requirements is actually a good thing, and can result in more variance in power builds.

[Someone With Mass]

I think Jessie Houston said in one interview that the powers in ME3 will evolve at each level, so diversity shouldn't be a problem.

[Chromie]

javierabegazo wrote...

TW2 had a similar problem, of locking you out of specializing until you had established a "base skill set". I think that when it comes to abiltiy screens, having no power requirements is actually a good thing, and can result in more variance in power builds.

But at least every talent in the game could have 2 talent points pumped into it. That being the trade off should I develop a certain talent furter such as the Quen sign to absorb more damage or cause it to deflect damage to more enemies or should I go further into the tree? I think that adds to the roleplaying elements. 

In Mass Effect 2 it was just pretty much Squad Ammo or stronger ammo, Attack causes bigger AoE or more damage and last more damage or shorter cooldown. Mass Effect 3 from the the title alone now has talent specs that can effect your henchmen it seems sounds awesome. More diversity for us.

Modifié par Ringo12, 20 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[KainrycKarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think Jessie Houston said in one interview that the powers in ME3 will evolve at each level, so diversity shouldn't be a problem.

That he did.

[javierabegazo]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think Jessie Houston said in one interview that the powers in ME3 will evolve at each level, so diversity shouldn't be a problem.

Yup, that's what he said. I'm interested to see this in practice. This could result in heavily smart builds or incredibly gimped ones, which heck, I guess is good in a way. ME2 was a bit......simple and linear in that aspect, 4 abilities for squaddies, only 4 levels per, one evolution path which was pretty much:

Do you want..

1. AOE with lesser DMG?
or
2. Stronger DMG with lesser AOE?

.
I think you if you take a closer look at the screenshots, each level of the power you'll get to improve distinct aspects of that power. Take for example here, Combat Mastery, for this 'obviously' Soldier Shepard:






The ? I imagine is the two branching mother directions you can go with evolution

[Someone With Mass]

I'd like clarification on the evolving stages, because it looks like I can just pick whatever when the power evolves instead of sticking to one path.

[Chewin]

Damn the one who says there's no RPG elements in ME3.

[Lumikki]

Calinstel wrote...

Sabotage. 

If I remember correct this talet, was worst ever invented. Why?
Because anyone who understand anything about technology, would understand that this was paradox talent.
Point been, in gameplay it works fine, but it's basicly magical power, not technical.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 juin 2011 - 03:32 .

[Smeelia]

nhsk wrote...

Example, a squadmate like Jacob, was really useless in combat as squadmates had 4 powers but only enough points at max level to fill 3 powers leaving the last completely blank, forcing you to cut out his trademark power if you wanted to fill up the rest of the bars as unlocking the loyalty power would automatically place a point there, thus if you tried to fill up the other 3 powers would have excess points you couldn't use as each step got more expensive.

This'll sound bad but if you have the Shadow Broker DLC then you can respec talent points and move the "free" point from the loyalty power into one of the other sections (giving a bit more flexibility and making it possible to spend every point for every character, depending on build).  It's still annoying though, especially for those without the DLC.

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'd like clarification on the evolving stages, because it looks like I can just pick whatever when the power evolves instead of sticking to one path.

I was kind of hoping this is how it would work, rather than having us pick the abilities in a tree.  Even if each option can only be chosen once it'd be a bit more choice for the player.  I think it might be interesting if you can pick each option as many times as you like (once per upgrade) so you could go entirely for one aspect of the power or divide it up a bit more (that might be harder to balance but it'd be great for freedom of choice).

Modifié par Smeelia, 20 juin 2011 - 03:33 .

[Legion_Geth]

Chewin3 wrote...

Damn the one who says there's no RPG elements in ME3.

It's not about there not being RPG elemnts, it's about there not being enough.

[Asari Commando]

javierabegazo wrote...

@OP

"I think the reduction in character development in ME2 compared to ME1 was my greatest disappointment. "

In ME1, there was no evolution at all for the last level of the Abilities, where as in ME2, there were two different evolution paths per ability. Are you referring to something else in terms of character development?

ummm yes?

like about 10 (more for shepard) skills to upgrade, and a max level of 60 that gave the player a heap of stats to distribute and build squaddies to their liking.

then it is completely watered down in ME2, giving you sometimes only 4 different skills for a squadmmate. also you can only upgrade them 4 times, so your "evolution for the last level of ability" really helps your argument 0%. that change nowhere near gave you as much choice in the build of your crew, simply put ME2 watered down the RPG and buffed up the shooter.

also i agree with OP, that the lack of character development was probably my biggest (if only) disappointment with the sequal. it added a lot of good features, but sacrifced RPG by attempting to clean up the gameplay

[SalsaDMA]

Chewin3 wrote...

Damn the one who says there's no RPG elements in ME3.

Additions to the combat engine does not equal rpg elements.

Damn me as much as you like, cause I don't believe in the "damnation" thing anyway.

[Cainne Chapel]

Well Salsa... RPG/building elements in a game like Mass Effect can only go so far as there's really 2 main points to the ME series....
Dialogue/Choices and Combat.

So ya gotta take what ya can get.


Asari Commando-

The point Javier I think was trying to make is that while yeah there were a ton more skills in ME1... they were all linear they didn't/dont branch like they do in ME2/3 to focus on different aspects of said power, its pretty much a linear progression all the way through

and while yes you did level up twice as much, there were 3x a many skill slots to fill, most of which added 1% or so to said power so the effect was essentialy pointless. Going from 600newtons to 650 newtons or what not didnt add much.

That said I'm hoping this new system is much more free form in terms of adjusting your powers/skills.

[Aimi]

nhsk wrote...

Which also was its weak point.

Example, a squadmate like Jacob, was really useless in combat as squadmates had 4 powers but only enough points at max level to fill 3 powers leaving the last completely blank, forcing you to cut out his trademark power if you wanted to fill up the rest of the bars as unlocking the loyalty power would automatically place a point there, thus if you tried to fill up the other 3 powers would have excess points you couldn't use as each step got more expensive.

Same applies for Garrus, I have yet to put a point in his Overload.

Mordin, never filled his Cryoblast

Miranda, had a very nice character specific tree, but was never filled, as it would prevent me from filling the other 3 powers.

Jack, forcing a point into shockwave? Seriously...

I could probably go on but....

Eh.  The initial complaint - about Jacob - is factually incorrect; Jacob has enough points to fill three bars and have one point left over for the fourth, which is perfect - it allows you to give him Pull Field, Squad Incendiary, and a maxed passive, and have one left for Barrier (which is all you need with Barrier - some people don't even like having it available for him because he's prone to spamming it even with squad power usage turned off, so they re-spec it out of him on the Shadow Broker's ship).  Miranda has the same situation: you can max Unstable Warp, Area Overload, her passive, and still have a point left for Slam to make those sweet, sweet Warp bombs.  Those are the only two squadmates with 31 skill points instead of 30.  In all honesty, that actually makes them less fun - there are clearly optimal builds for both of them, reducing the amount of real choice you have in leveling them up.

With most other squadmates, though, you can either dump an ability entirely, or you can level up two abilities completely, get one to Level 3, and the other to Level 2 with a point left over.  Not exactly ideal, obviously, but it does force you to make choices, which is kind of the point.  Yeah, you have to dump two points into Concussive Shot to unlock Garrus' Overload, but that still means you can get Area Overload and a maxed-out passive (because with maxed-out passive, Garrus' Overloads do more damage than any other Overloads in the game - other than yours, of course), plus a few points into each of the other two powers (which are significantly less useful).

With most of your squadmates, yeah, you have to dump two levels of points into a useless ability in order to unlock a better one.  Jack has to get through Shockwave to get to Pull, just like Samara has to get through Throw to get to Pull, and Thane has to get through Throw to get to Warp.  (This is true of basically everybody; the only exception I can think of is Zaeed, but only if Shepard is an Infiltrator or a Soldier.)  But, again, this offers elements of choice: max out the earlier, weaker power, and get the benefits of its evolution quickly, or wait longer for the more powerful power?  (I would argue that for your squadmates, the order in which you unlock their powers makes more sense than it does for Shepard - the infamous Adept/Vanguard Pull/Shockwave thing rearing its ugly head.)  Doesn't the fact that there's not a blatantly obviously optimal build give you choice between competing suboptimal builds, and allow each player to better tailor her squad's builds to her playstyle?  May I assume choice (like hope) is a Good Thing?

[javierabegazo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Damn the one who says there's no RPG elements in ME3.

Additions to the combat engine does not equal rpg elements.

Damn me as much as you like, cause I don't believe in the "damnation" thing anyway.

So an increase in character ability customization does not equal RPG Elements?

[CroGamer002]

We all know that useless stats and useless loot makes RPG javierabegazo.

[Someone With Mass]

I think the option to pick dialogues and the progression of characters is enough to prove it's an RPG, but the customization for armor, weapons and powers works too.

People can't say ME3 won't have any RPG elements, because that's BS, and we all know it.

[CannonO]

Face it. They wanted to broaden the appeal of Mass Effect for sales reasons so they streamlined it more towards a shooter market. Hence, they threw us an ammo limit, we lost weapon options, attachments, large skill trees, open exploration, and pristinely beautiful Mass Effect scenes that defined it.

Now we did still get our fantastic story and the scale we desire, but it the franchise took a very different turn and it took a large injection of shooter making it more like 50/50 RPGshooter instead of 80/20 RPG shooter.

I loved bigger skill trees and all the cool ammo types and armor attachments. It is a shame they took it away. Heck, even the little elevator dialogues added good RPG element to me.

[TheOtherTheoG]

CannonLars wrote...

Face it. They wanted to broaden the appeal of Mass Effect for sales reasons so they streamlined it more towards a shooter market. Hence, they threw us an ammo limit, we lost weapon options, attachments, large skill trees, open exploration, and pristinely beautiful Mass Effect scenes that defined it.

Now we did still get our fantastic story and the scale we desire, but it the franchise took a very different turn and it took a large injection of shooter making it more like 50/50 RPGshooter instead of 80/20 RPG shooter.

I loved bigger skill trees and all the cool ammo types and armor attachments. It is a shame they took it away. Heck, even the little elevator dialogues added good RPG element to me.

If I ever have a dead horse that needs beating, I'll contact you

[javierabegazo]

CannonLars wrote...

Face it. They wanted to broaden the appeal of Mass Effect for sales reasons so they streamlined it more towards a shooter market. Hence, they threw us an ammo limit, we lost weapon options, attachments, large skill trees, open exploration, and pristinely beautiful Mass Effect scenes that defined it.

Now we did still get our fantastic story and the scale we desire, but it the franchise took a very different turn and it took a large injection of shooter making it more like 50/50 RPGshooter instead of 80/20 RPG shooter.

I loved bigger skill trees and all the cool ammo types and armor attachments. It is a shame they took it away. Heck, even the little elevator dialogues added good RPG element to me.

How is Elevator Dialogue RPG elements?

I love ED, don't get me wrong but hear me out.

All ED is, is ambient banter. That's it. And that can be featured in any game, regardless of the genre, and merely increases the depth, and believability. But in game dialogue can be found in a great many number of genres, it's merely more prevalent in RPG's. Psychonauts wasn't an RPG, but it had plenty of banter.