162 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

Okay, so apparantly people don't understand why Sovereign and Harbinger were doing what they were doing if they Reapers simply fly here.

Here's why.

The Reapers believe in efficiency. Using Sovereign to destabilize the
galaxy makes their job considerably easier, and weakens resistance.
Activating the Citadel relay further streamlines the reaping, allowing
them to jump straight to the heart of civilization, obliterating the
leadership, and having access to every to a database on every known
civilization.

Enter Shepard; whoops the hell out of Sovereign
putting humanity in the spotlight, with a big red target in the process
because the Reapers now view humanity as a threat/potential new Reaper.

Enter
ME2 and Harbinger.  They want the one who poses a threat(Shepard) and
his brethren(humanity) to be "assimilated" into a new Reaper.

Shepard does his thing.

Enter
Arrival; the Reapers have finally, after however long they'd been in
transit in darkspace(assuming they've been coming since the events of
ME1, we can assume at least 2-3 years). As a contingency plan they head
towards the relay of Arrival which has access to *every* other relay,
while not as convenient as the Citadel, nor as informative, and at this
point resistance isn't as strong as it could be, nor is it as weak as
they wanted.

Enter Shepard...again; does his thing.

Enter
ME3; The Reapers have arrived the hard way, the galaxy is still
relatively intact, including galactic government. Resistance is
inevitable.


It's not a plothole at all. You people just haven't heard of tactics or contingency plans.


Tl;Dr
The reapers were coming no matter what. Sovereign was plan A, designed tocompletely incapacitate any possible resistance.

Harbinger/Human reaper was an off-the-cuff plan in response to Shepard and humanity proving itself a viable threat.

Arrival was a final contingency plan.

Shepard foiling all of these means the Reapers now have to do everything the hard way, relay by relay, costing them more energy, and allowing a resistance to form(enter Shepard and his motley crew of badassery).

[Shepard Lives]

Good thread. +1

[Jeth Prime]

Some people don't know how to follow along.... If something goes over their head, the call plot holes. I hate having to explain what's going on to people....

[AshleyS3]

I thought this thread was going to be about Legion...

Do you think the Collectors/Human Reaper scheme was really a legitimate plan or intended as a distraction?

[jamesp81]

Jeth Prime wrote...

Some people don't know how to follow along.... If something goes over their head, the call plot holes. I hate having to explain what's going on to people....

Agreed.

Some of my friends seem to want the story spoon fed to them, minute detail by minute detail.  I don't get that, personally.

[Smeelia]

AshleyS3 wrote...

I thought this thread was going to be about Legion...

Me too, I'm disappointed.

It's really an unnecessary splinter thread from this one: http://social.biowar...index/7684339/1

Or specifically the OP's post: http://social.biowar...84339/7#7688284

It can be annoying if you think you've got a good point and it gets lost in the thread but we can't all start new threads every time.

[Skirata129]

well there is the whole thing about why they bothered starting to harvest colonies when that could just draw more attention to themselves before the real invasion. they could have just waited and made a new reaper while the invasion was in progress. still, considering that they were harvesting for two years and the reaper was still an "embryo" they could have just wanted to have it finished by the time they were ready to fully withdraw again to use as the next sentinel.

[Whatever42]

Harbinger/Human reaper was an off-the-cuff plan in response to Shepard and humanity proving itself a viable threat.

I agree with your post, although this part above can't really be true. The human reaper wouldn't be finished before the Reaper invasion arrived. I don't think we really know yet how the human reaper plays into their immediate invasion plans. It might not at all.

[MDT1]

Skirata129 wrote...

well there is the whole thing about why they bothered starting to harvest colonies when that could just draw more attention to themselves before the real invasion. they could have just waited and made a new reaper while the invasion was in progress. still, considering that they were harvesting for two years and the reaper was still an "embryo" they could have just wanted to have it finished by the time they were ready to fully withdraw again to use as the next sentinel.

I always thought they wanted a human reaper that could understand humans and shepard before they start the full invasion so they don't underestimate us again and take unnecessary casualties. That was all ME2 was about from the reaper point of view imho.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Harbinger/Human reaper was an off-the-cuff plan in response to Shepard and humanity proving itself a viable threat.

I
agree with your post, although this part above can't really be true.
The human reaper wouldn't be finished before the Reaper invasion
arrived. I don't think we really know yet how the human reaper plays
into their immediate invasion plans. It might not at all.

This Is why they waited really close to the alpha relay in darkspace and activated their FTL after the human reaper failed.

Modifié par MDT1, 20 juin 2011 - 03:47 .

[KainrycKarr]

Smeelia wrote...

AshleyS3 wrote...

I thought this thread was going to be about Legion...

Me too, I'm disappointed.

It's really an unnecessary splinter thread from this one: http://social.biowar...index/7684339/1

Or specifically the OP's post: http://social.biowar...84339/7#7688284

It can be annoying if you think you've got a good point and it gets lost in the thread but we can't all start new threads every time.

I made a separate thread specifically because every other thread is about how there IS a plothole; this one is about how it's not.

[KainrycKarr]

Skirata129 wrote...

well there is the whole thing about why they bothered starting to harvest colonies when that could just draw more attention to themselves before the real invasion. they could have just waited and made a new reaper while the invasion was in progress. still, considering that they were harvesting for two years and the reaper was still an "embryo" they could have just wanted to have it finished by the time they were ready to fully withdraw again to use as the next sentinel.

The collectors were a known threat and were previously unassociated with the Reapers. Avoiding undue attention is why they focused on Terminus-based colonies.

[KainrycKarr]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Harbinger/Human reaper was an off-the-cuff plan in response to Shepard and humanity proving itself a viable threat.

I agree with your post, although this part above can't really be true. The human reaper wouldn't be finished before the Reaper invasion arrived. I don't think we really know yet how the human reaper plays into their immediate invasion plans. It might not at all.

I don't think it had anything to do with the invasion; they saw a threat, and attempted to neutralize or utilize it under the guise of the enigmatic collectors so they wouldn't have to deal with it + the rest of the galaxy during the full invasion.

[Whatever42]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I made a separate thread specifically because every other thread is about how there IS a plothole; this one is about how it's not.

The plothole wars will never end. Every book/movie/game is plagued by plothole critics who demand that everything be completely explained. Worse, if a character makes choices differently than the plothole critic then obviously that's a plothole because no one should think differently than the critic.

Obviously arguing against this type of reasoning is impossible so the war can never end.

[Jeth Prime]

I don't think the Human Reaper was a part of the plan of attack, but that they just saw a race or resource that could be "worthy" of being turned into a new reaper, and they went for it.... The could've waited to start when they got there, but chances are, they'd be using to collectors for that job anyway, so why not start then.

[KainrycKarr]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

I made a separate thread specifically because every other thread is about how there IS a plothole; this one is about how it's not.

The plothole wars will never end. Every book/movie/game is plagued by plothole critics who demand that everything be completely explained. Worse, if a character makes choices differently than the plothole critic then obviously that's a plothole because no one should think differently than the critic.

Obviously arguing against this type of reasoning is impossible so the war can never end.

And yet I try anyway. Perhaps I should try counseling. lol.

[KainrycKarr]

Jeth Prime wrote...

I don't think the Human Reaper was a part of the plan of attack, but that they just saw a race or resource that could be "worthy" of being turned into a new reaper, and they went for it.... The could've waited to start when they got there, but chances are, they'd be using to collectors for that job anyway, so why not start then.

This, though I think it was also because they wanted what they saw as the "primary" threat(humanity) dealt with before it could unite with the other races during the full invasion.

[DoNotIngest]

There was a hole.

[Whatever42]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I don't think it had anything to do with the invasion; they saw a threat, and attempted to neutralize or utilize it under the guise of the enigmatic collectors so they wouldn't have to deal with it + the rest of the galaxy during the full invasion.

I agree it probably had nothing to do with the invasion. I can think of several motivations. They might have been getting an early jump, sure. Or it could have been, as mentioned above, an effort to come to grips with human pyschology by integrating it into the Reaper collective. Maybe it was simply to confirm that humans were a suitable candidate for Reaperhood so they knew to start with Earth - a pilot project, if you will. 

Still not really sure what drove them to do it then and there, though. I hope its explained, although its probably not that relevant going forward.

[Davie McG]

Skirata129 wrote...

well there is the whole thing about why they bothered starting to harvest colonies when that could just draw more attention to themselves before the real invasion. they could have just waited and made a new reaper while the invasion was in progress. still, considering that they were harvesting for two years and the reaper was still an "embryo" they could have just wanted to have it finished by the time they were ready to fully withdraw again to use as the next sentinel.

That's exactly what I thought the purpose in the human reaper was. It would also be a nice piece of irony having a human reaper be the one to start the new cycle.

There are always going to be people who will argue for arguments sake so I doubt this thread will stop people making "then why would they do this.." posts.  it gives these people the perfect opportunity to spout how they think they are so much better at writing than the people that make the game.

Also, this is just a game, a sci-fi game at that, about massive sapient war ships that chew up races and spit out reapers. Just go with it.

[Medhia Nox]

Your whole explanation of the storyline is exactly why I believe the Reapers are already defeated and nothing special needs to be employed.

((The rest of this post is just an explanation of that sentence.))

A race that is truly uber-powerful like the Reapers claim - would not need to sucker punch the galaxy through the Citadel. Yet, they do it - every time. I understand that it could be argued for "efficiencies" sake - but, I'm not sure that's all it is. I think they know that if they take on a galactic force head on the chances of them not succeeded rise exponentially.

Plus - I don't imagine the Reapers adapt very well. Legion criticizes an organics inability to think logically at all times - but, that's just because it's science fiction. Rational thinking is actually far inferior to imaginative thought - and while that's just my opinion, I wrote what I believe to be a very convincing synopsis of what the creators are trying to say in ME about individual free thinking being superior to mind-hive logic engines.

So - Shepard already "broke" the Cycle, and now the Reapers are just trying "Plan B" - which they've never had to do before so there's no data on how to proceed. As we see Legion get crippled a few times throughout the game because he's still "taking consensus" - I think the Reapers are already screwed.

You just can't beat the crazy that comes with being organic.

[KainrycKarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Your whole explanation of the storyline is exactly why I believe the Reapers are already defeated and nothing special needs to be employed.

((The rest of this post is just an explanation of that sentence.))

A race that is truly uber-powerful like the Reapers claim - would not need to sucker punch the galaxy through the Citadel. Yet, they do it - every time. I understand that it could be argued for "efficiencies" sake - but, I'm not sure that's all it is. I think they know that if they take on a galactic force head on the chances of them not succeeded rise exponentially.

Plus - I don't imagine the Reapers adapt very well. Legion criticizes an organics inability to think logically at all times - but, that's just because it's science fiction. Rational thinking is actually far inferior to imaginative thought - and while that's just my opinion, I wrote what I believe to be a very convincing synopsis of what the creators are trying to say in ME about individual free thinking being superior to mind-hive logic engines.

So - Shepard already "broke" the Cycle, and now the Reapers are just trying "Plan B" - which they've never had to do before so there's no data on how to proceed. As we see Legion get crippled a few times throughout the game because he's still "taking consensus" - I think the Reapers are already screwed.

You just can't beat the crazy that comes with being organic.

Ah, but that's the catch; they don't need to do it, they want to do it.

A machine does everything logically and efficiently.

In this case, the Reapers are given a situation; reap organics.

They can do it one of two ways; the easy way(Sovereign, to a lesser extent that Batarian relay), or the hard way(ME3).

They are powerful enough to do it either way, but a computer will ALWAYS take the most streamlined and efficient method of tackling an equation or a problem(unless it's Windows).

And you're right; if they don't do it that way, they don't know what will happen.

Will they encounter a natural anomaly(dark energy star in tali's mission) that somehow foils them?

Will their targets(organics) unite and find a way?

To the reapers, doing things the hard way means facing an equation with an unknown outcome, something they very much don't want.

But there really isn't a question of "are they really powerful enough"?

We saw what Sovereign did. We know what can do. They just want to spend as little energy doing it as possible.

[Smeelia]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I made a separate thread specifically because every other thread is about how there IS a plothole; this one is about how it's not.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The plothole wars will never end. Every book/movie/game is plagued by plothole critics who demand that everything be completely explained. Worse, if a character makes choices differently than the plothole critic then obviously that's a plothole because no one should think differently than the critic.

Obviously arguing against this type of reasoning is impossible so the war can never end.

If there's no plothole you often don't have to point it out (otherwise you'd have to mention every single thing that lacks a plothole and that'd mean a lot more threads that go nowhere).  If there is a plothole (or you think there's one) then it makes sense to bring it up and see what people think.  It can be annoying when people wont listen to perfectly sensible arguments but that doesn't mean the discussion of ideas (even if they're based on a misunderstanding) is wrong.

Getting back towards the main topic, I don't believe there's a plothole but I have a different view of the situation than the one you give.  I think the Reapers in dark space needed "waking up" before they started moving and Sovereign was able to do this from the Citadel but was unable to open the relay in time.  Alternatively, the signal could have been sent to update the other Reapers some time ago and just took a long time to get to them (this would also act as the timeframe that Sovereign had to open the relay, since the other Reapers would have moved after receiving the signal).

I don't think there's an official explanation of all of the details but there's enough doubt and plausible theories that it's hard to call it a plot hole.

As for the Human Reaper, I think that was just the Reapers trying to work on completing part of their plan quietly while they were on their way to the galaxy.  Once they start attacking the galaxy it's going to be much harder to capture subjects for use in Reaper construction and having a base for their enemies to attack will increase the risk of defeat as well.

[Whatever42]

Calinstel wrote...

So you're saying it was the Reapers intention to completely waste 2 years, allowing preparations to be made? Announcing themselves via human abduction, alerting the entire galaxy there was more to Sovereign than just being a geth ship, instead of just stealthly entering the system? Good, overlord quality, plan.
Nice option, possibly correct even but it is not shown in the game and that is what matters.
ME2 should have been all about the Alpha Relay and not Cartoon Harby. It would have kept the story moving on the actual Reaper threat as well as made the story more believable. It's not that I think there is a plot hole but a lack of believable plot.

The plan to take the citadel through the conduit was a good one that would have allowed them to keep the cycle intact. Who could have expected a random element like Shepard to mess things up so thoroughly?

A frontal attack screws up their cycle badly, whether they wait 2 more years or not. It might even destroy it forever. It's a really, really bad plan B for the Reapers. 

As to what makes a better plot - well, that's an entirely different point. Sure, you could have cut TTT out of the LotR trilogy. Middle chapters are often a bit slow, a bit more about character development, a bit more exploration of the setting. They are not usually about keeping the plot at a breakneck pace. But most people actually enjoy middle chapters because its not all about the action.

[KainrycKarr]

Calinstel wrote...

So you're saying it was the Reapers intention to completely waste 2 years, allowing preparations to be made? Announcing themselves via human abduction, alerting the entire galaxy there was more to Sovereign than just being a geth ship, instead of just stealthly entering the system? Good, overlord quality, plan.
Nice option, possibly correct even but it is not shown in the game and that is what matters.
ME2 should have been all about the Alpha Relay and not Cartoon Harby. It would have kept the story moving on the actual Reaper threat as well as made the story more believable. It's not that I think there is a plot hole but a lack of believable plot.

How is preparing the heart of galactic civilization for a check-mate Win-button "wasting two years"? They were already in transit. All that would happen is A. It works like it did every previous cycle, or B. They just keep doing what they're already doing; headin' home to the milky Way.

And they didn't announce themselves with human abduction. That was just the collectors doing what they always did, just in bigger proportions. The only part of the galaxy who were alerted were Cerberus and Shepard, who already knew about the reapers.

I find the plot completely believable.