162 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Smeelia wrote...

If there's no plothole you often don't have to point it out (otherwise you'd have to mention every single thing that lacks a plothole and that'd mean a lot more threads that go nowhere).  If there is a plothole (or you think there's one) then it makes sense to bring it up and see what people think.  It can be annoying when people wont listen to perfectly sensible arguments but that doesn't mean the discussion of ideas (even if they're based on a misunderstanding) is wrong.

I'm not against discussing plotholes. The ME series has them - both games. None of them are major for me and easily overlooked but they are there.

My major complaint is when people misunderstand what a plothole is. A character who does something stupid is not a plothole. Something unexplained is not a plothole. Something unlikely is not a plothole.

[Dannyboy9876]

Thank you for understanding.

I don't get the idiots who call Sovereign stupid.

[this isnt my name]

Calinstel wrote...

So you're saying it was the Reapers intention to completely waste 2 years, allowing preparations to be made? Announcing themselves via human abduction, alerting the entire galaxy there was more to Sovereign than just being a geth ship, instead of just stealthly entering the system? Good, overlord quality, plan.
Nice option, possibly correct even but it is not shown in the game and that is what matters.
ME2 should have been all about the Alpha Relay and not Cartoon Harby. It would have kept the story moving on the actual Reaper threat as well as made the story more believable. It's not that I think there is a plot hole but a lack of believable plot.

Agreed, the plot is just getting stupid. BW made these overpowered, machine gods who they now need to make stupid and illogical (going against thier character) so we can win.

Ok lets ignore the stuff so far, in ME3 the relay system is open (we see tuchunka, salarian home and earth), that means the ciadel is not under reaper control. Why are the reapers landing on earth ? Its stupid, the logical thing is all attack the citadel, stop the relays, then one at a time pick the galaxy apart. Not attack earth while everyone works out what to do. If the repers have to win fine, you shouldnt be sacraficing the story/atmosphere/characters just so the good guy wins.

Trying to make sense out of this is pointless, its clear the writers want you to win and as a result they dont want the repers to use logic and live up to what they are.

[Jeth Prime]

There's nothing that says they were powering up. To me, it looked like they were already on the move. If they were powering up, how can Harbringer, have been playing any part in Mass Effect 2? And if they were so close, why would they've wanted to use the geth in ME1? And wait two years after, to start moving? Think, people. Not everything needs to be explained....

[MDT1]

this isnt my name wrote...

Ok lets ignore the stuff so far, in ME3 the relay system is open (we see tuchunka, salarian home and earth), that means the ciadel is not under reaper control. Why are the reapers landing on earth ? Its stupid, the logical thing is all attack the citadel, stop the relays, then one at a time pick the galaxy apart. Not attack earth while everyone works out what to do. If the repers have to win fine, you shouldnt be sacraficing the story/atmosphere/characters just so the good guy wins.

If the reapers would attack the citadel now, the citadel would just close its arms and wave at them.
They could perhaps destroy the citadell and the possibility to shut down the relay network with it.
All attacking the citadell would certainly achive is an coordinated counterattack from all council races.

Attacking a homeworld makes more sense as every civilisation will defend ist homeworld, seperatly.
if your homeworld is attacked you wont wait for the rest of the galaxy to regroup.
I mean nearly the whole alliance fleet was destroyed while defending earth.
Would it have made sense for humans to hold the fleet back at the citadell or somewhere else, surely.
But would you give up earth without a fight? No way.

The plot in ME3 will be basically the same as in ME1 or ME2.
Shepards enters the stage and will do something completly unexpected, in this case manage to unite the galaxy, and beat the reapers.

Modifié par MDT1, 20 juin 2011 - 04:35 .

[this isnt my name]

Calinstel wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

So you're saying it was the Reapers intention to completely waste 2 years, allowing preparations to be made? Announcing themselves via human abduction, alerting the entire galaxy there was more to Sovereign than just being a geth ship, instead of just stealthly entering the system? Good, overlord quality, plan.
Nice option, possibly correct even but it is not shown in the game and that is what matters.
ME2 should have been all about the Alpha Relay and not Cartoon Harby. It would have kept the story moving on the actual Reaper threat as well as made the story more believable. It's not that I think there is a plot hole but a lack of believable plot.

Agreed, the plot is just getting stupid. BW made these overpowered, machine gods who they now need to make stupid and illogical (going against thier character) so we can win.

Ok lets ignore the stuff so far, in ME3 the relay system is open (we see tuchunka, salarian home and earth), that means the ciadel is not under reaper control. Why are the reapers landing on earth ? Its stupid, the logical thing is all attack the citadel, stop the relays, then one at a time pick the galaxy apart. Not attack earth while everyone works out what to do. If the repers have to win fine, you shouldnt be sacraficing the story/atmosphere/characters just so the good guy wins.

Trying to make sense out of this is pointless, its clear the writers want you to win and as a result they dont want the repers to use logic and live up to what they are.

I too have a hard time fitting the original Reaper idea of exceptionally powerful, intelligent machines in ME1 into the mold we have now for ME2.  It would have made more sense if they burned some of themselves out reaching the galaxy than just sitting there.
I also agree with you, the Citadel IS the key.  If the Reapers had taken the Citadel, all traffice would stop.  But, enter a previous plot device.  The IFF.
Shepard then can get that item to all the different races, while at the same time, getting said races to join together.

The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there, unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks, they did with everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going to be defeated in ME3 ? Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means making them alot less epic.

[onelifecrisis]

@OP

Thanks for posting this, even though I'd managed to piece all of that together from other threads (I'm one of the "you people" that you so nicely referred to ). However, your theory still leaves the whole human reaper bit unexplained. What was the point of it? Why build it, given that it's nowhere near completed when the reapers arrive at the AR?

[Someone With Mass]

One part of hibernation includes to not move and use as little energy as possible. The Reapers can still think and/or communicate briefly if need be. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to receive the signal from the Citadel relay when it's time to reap, or Harbinger wouldn't be able to communicate with the Collectors at all.

And they probably have some form of technology that allows for direct contact with their minions, much like how Sovereign took control over Saren.

[Jeth Prime]

Calinstel wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...

There's nothing that says they were powering up. To me, it looked like they were already on the move. If they were powering up, how can Harbringer, have been playing any part in Mass Effect 2? And if they were so close, why would they've wanted to use the geth in ME1? And wait two years after, to start moving? Think, people. Not everything needs to be explained....

Thinking is what causes discussions such as this one.  Please do not accuse me of not thinking.
There was no evidence the Reapers were moving.  In fact, the only thing we saw were their lights turning on.  Of course, it could be they were possibly trying to sneak up on the galaxy, running dark, but really?
Shepard is at the galactic core yet he can communicate real time with old illusive.  Quantum Entanglement Device ring a bell?  Surely Cerberus is not the only people to ever develope that device.

Forgive me about the comment about thinking.... I wasn't thinking....
What I saw was the moving in from the darkness of space, mor reapers become visable as they got closer.
And no one said others couldn't use a QED. Edi also explained to Sherpard why the QED isn't practical for most types of comunication, when Shepard asks why it isn't used more often.

[Dice2624]

This makes a lot of sense. Great post.

[MDT1]

onelifecrisis wrote...

@OP

Thanks for posting this, even though I'd managed to piece all of that together from other threads (I'm one of the "you people" that you so nicely referred to ). However, your theory still leaves the whole human reaper bit unexplained. What was the point of it? Why build it, given that it's nowhere near completed when the reapers arrive at the AR?

Perhaps they would have waited longer if Shepard didn't destroy it?
Also who tells us that a reaper needs his full body to be mentally full grown?

[Jeth Prime]

this isnt my name wrote...


The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there, unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks, they did with everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going to be defeated in ME3 ? Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means making them alot less epic.

I was a bit confused about the dead reaper too.... But I'm sure they may use some seemingly unimportant discovery in ME2 and maybe something from ME1 to help take them down.... We won't know untill we play through it. No need to call for plot holes and things that make no sence before we even know what happens....

[Sith Reaper]

To further add on to this excellent thread:

The idea to make a human Reaper had not only the intentions of destroying humanity, but with the humans gone, it would be possible to send the new Reaper into the Citadel and open the relay to dark space. This clearly shows that the plan was still to keep it streamlined and efficient, until Shepard destroyed the human Reaper.

With that gone, they went to step three: Alpha Relay, and so on. Therefore, their plans really are prioritized in how efficient they are; as you said.

[onelifecrisis]

MDT1 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

@OP

Thanks for posting this, even though I'd managed to piece all of that together from other threads (I'm one of the "you people" that you so nicely referred to ). However, your theory still leaves the whole human reaper bit unexplained. What was the point of it? Why build it, given that it's nowhere near completed when the reapers arrive at the AR?

Perhaps they would have waited longer if Shepard didn't destroy it?

So they set off after the SM? That would make sense  were it not for the fact that Arrival happens before the SM. 

MDT1 wrote...

Also who tells us that a reaper needs his full body to be mentally full grown?

Okay... but I don't see how this helps explain what the human reaper was intended to do?

[Raiil]

OP made a good post, and he should feel proud.

I think the Reapers coming to attack Earth does make at least some tactical sense. In the MEverse, humans are known for their (compared to others) unconventional warfare; although they have a small military compared to their general population, their military prowess is considered to be amount the best.

Or, as per the wiki:

The Alliance military is respected by the Citadel races for its novel tactics and technology (and not least for the fact the First Contact War had more turian than human casualties). Their strength lies in fire support, flexibility, and speed. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant" as only 3% of humans volunteer for military service. They make up for low numbers with sophisticated technical support (VIs, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative. Their military doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and logistics, destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to 'wither on the vine'.

On defense, the Alliance military lives by Sun Tzu's maxim, "He who tries to defend everything defends nothing."

If you're a machine of logic, the one thing you're going to want to do is get rid of the enemy who's known for irrational, yet somehow conclusively winning warfare. Humans are that enemy. Unpredictable, more powerful than it would be suggested by numbers, and a race that, even as a fairly new member of the galactic community, considered to be aggressive and out to prove something- you flush out the wild card as quickly as you can, because they'll be the thorn in your foot.

[onelifecrisis]

Sith Reaper wrote...

To further add on to this excellent thread:

The idea to make a human Reaper had not only the intentions of destroying humanity, but with the humans gone, it would be possible to send the new Reaper into the Citadel and open the relay to dark space. This clearly shows that the plan was still to keep it streamlined and efficient, until Shepard destroyed the human Reaper.

With that gone, they went to step three: Alpha Relay, and so on. Therefore, their plans really are prioritized in how efficient they are; as you said.

But the reapers arrive at the AR before the SM takes place.

[this isnt my name]

Jeth Prime wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...


The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there, unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks, they did with everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going to be defeated in ME3 ? Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means making them alot less epic.

I was a bit confused about the dead reaper too.... But I'm sure they may use some seemingly unimportant discovery in ME2 and maybe something from ME1 to help take them down.... We won't know untill we play through it. No need to call for plot holes and things that make no sence before we even know what happens....

I cant see anyy ending I would like. Reapers wont win, fans wont like that, it amy be an option, but I wont like it becuase it wouldnt be the true ending. So reapers either have some easily exploited weakness no one noticed, ever. Or ME3 we end up with some superweapon, which is stupid becuase the repaer tech is far more advanced and they have been at this much longer than current races. I see no logical ending, I just dont like it.

[MDT1]

Sith Reaper wrote...

To further add on to this excellent thread:

The idea to make a human Reaper had not only the intentions of destroying humanity, but with the humans gone, it would be possible to send the new Reaper into the Citadel and open the relay to dark space. This clearly shows that the plan was still to keep it streamlined and efficient, until Shepard destroyed the human Reaper.

With that gone, they went to step three: Alpha Relay, and so on. Therefore, their plans really are prioritized in how efficient they are; as you said.

I reall reall doubt the new reaper should attack the Citadel.
Sovereigns main advantage, the conduit, is gone.
Also it seems it would be faster for Harbinger to travel to the Citadel himself.

[Sith Reaper]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Sith Reaper wrote...

To further add on to this excellent thread:

The idea to make a human Reaper had not only the intentions of destroying humanity, but with the humans gone, it would be possible to send the new Reaper into the Citadel and open the relay to dark space. This clearly shows that the plan was still to keep it streamlined and efficient, until Shepard destroyed the human Reaper.

With that gone, they went to step three: Alpha Relay, and so on. Therefore, their plans really are prioritized in how efficient they are; as you said.

But the reapers arrive at the AR before the SM takes place.

I usually credit Arrival taking place after the Suicide Mission, as the ending shows a fleet of Reapers coming towards the galaxy's edge, and clearly not in the Alpha Relay system. I feel Arrival was meant to be played afterwards, but was given the capibility to do it before for whatever reason.

Modifié par Sith Reaper, 20 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[DialupToaster]

Hey, I guess you can't have people really think about as much as some of us. I mean I miss out on plot because I don't have the DLC but I get the basic idea behind it. I guess some people just need someone to take baby steps and explain to them? Anyway great thread.

[this isnt my name]

Valentia X wrote...

OP made a good post, and he should feel proud.

I think the Reapers coming to attack Earth does make at least some tactical sense. In the MEverse, humans are known for their (compared to others) unconventional warfare; although they have a small military compared to their general population, their military prowess is considered to be amount the best.

Or, as per the wiki:

The Alliance military is respected by the Citadel races for its novel tactics and technology (and not least for the fact the First Contact War had more turian than human casualties). Their strength lies in fire support, flexibility, and speed. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant" as only 3% of humans volunteer for military service. They make up for low numbers with sophisticated technical support (VIs, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative. Their military doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and logistics, destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to 'wither on the vine'.

On defense, the Alliance military lives by Sun Tzu's maxim, "He who tries to defend everything defends nothing."

If you're a machine of logic, the one thing you're going to want to do is get rid of the enemy who's known for irrational, yet somehow conclusively winning warfare. Humans are that enemy. Unpredictable, more powerful than it would be suggested by numbers, and a race that, even as a fairly new member of the galactic community, considered to be aggressive and out to prove something- you flush out the wild card as quickly as you can, because they'll be the thorn in your foot.

If reapers are logical they would divide and conquor, but thats just not happening. And your argument about humanity being a threat dosent work well when we find the aliance was wiped out already. The real threat to them is shepard. And they seem to have ignored him, the normandy got off earth, and they didnt close the relays to trap him. Thier current plan just isnt logical, im not a giant godlike machine, and even I know its stupid. Thier actions go against thier character.