162 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

Bioware themselves have stated Arrival is meant to take place after the SM, but is made available in-game because of the way the game is designed.

[Sith Reaper]

Gterror wrote...

Obviously Reapers are too powerful to take on with brute firepower,so Shepard finds a weakness or finds some kind of weapons to take out Reapers(reference too Klendagons Great Rift).Problem solved
In the worst case scenario maybe they gonna sacrifice star systems to destroy Reapers but that is unlikely to happen.

It could happen though. With the recurring 'dark energy' and its effect on accelerating star life, it could be used as a plot device in Mass Effect 3. Even if that doesn't come in, I am sure that, in the absence of preparing for the war, entire civilizations will fall to destroy the Reaper threat.

[KainrycKarr]

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 20 juin 2011 - 05:18 .

[Jeth Prime]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

(3) That's not the point. The point is that the derelict Reaper was there in the first place, when it shouldn't have been. The consequences of the discovery don't matter, the fact that it was there in the first place does.

I didn't make any point about why it should be there. I said I was confused about the dead reaper, and nothing else....

[MDT1]

Sith Reaper wrote...

It was EDI's theory that the Collectors were created after the Prothean's were unable to make a Reaper, which we can assume is true as she also 'predicts' most of the specifics in making the human Reaper.

Thanks, I guess you are right here.
I always thought having the Collectors as slaves has a value for itsself as they are more suptile than a reaper so I dind't pay to much attention to an additional (in this case perhaps official) expanation why the collectors exist.

[GuiltySource]

Spoilers!

Blasto will save us all!

[this isnt my name]

Eurhetemec wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

 they didnt close the relays to trap him.

They CAN'T close the relays to trap him. The Normandy (and presumably most Council vessels, now) has the Reaper IFF. This is why they're not hammering for the Citadel at a zillion miles any hour, because if they press the "no relays for the non-Reapers" button, people will just be able to override it.

For all we know the citadel could close relays completely. IFF excuse dosent work.

[Jeth Prime]

....

Modifié par Jeth Prime, 20 juin 2011 - 05:22 .

[Smeelia]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

The Reapers misuse of several assets is a plothole. Where were the Collectors and their apparently powerful cruiser in ME1? Why do they need a new Reaper (made out of that ridiculous human casserole) when they are weeks away and could use the Alpha Relay to quickly capture the Citadel (I'm sure the entire combined mental might of the Reapers can undo whatever the Protheans did)?

The Collectors had a specific purpose, it could be said to be unwise to throw away (or at least put at great risk) a useful asset that they need for another purpose within their plans.  The Collectors job is to search for and collect the species to be used in constructing a Reaper.  Constructing a Reaper is a goal in itself and separate to claiming the Citadel.  It's also easy to forget that the Reapers are huge and don't seem to have a way to do delicate work without indoctrinated/constructed servants (like the Collectors, Keepers and Saren).

Vengeful Nature wrote...

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

Sovereign and the Geth, plus with Sovereign using the protection of the Citadel arms.  In the battle, Sovereign personally only destroyed a few cruisers.

[Jeth Prime]

GuiltySource wrote...

Spoilers!

Blasto will save us all!

We can only hope....

[KainrycKarr]

this isnt my name wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

 they didnt close the relays to trap him.

They CAN'T close the relays to trap him. The Normandy (and presumably most Council vessels, now) has the Reaper IFF. This is why they're not hammering for the Citadel at a zillion miles any hour, because if they press the "no relays for the non-Reapers" button, people will just be able to override it.

For all we know the citadel could close relays completely. IFF excuse dosent work.

If you don't know that it can or can't close relays, then you can't dismiss or accept the IFF excuse.

[Jeth Prime]

this isnt my name wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

 they didnt close the relays to trap him.

They CAN'T close the relays to trap him. The Normandy (and presumably most Council vessels, now) has the Reaper IFF. This is why they're not hammering for the Citadel at a zillion miles any hour, because if they press the "no relays for the non-Reapers" button, people will just be able to override it.

For all we know the citadel could close relays completely. IFF excuse dosent work.

They have no controle over the citadel. That's why they needed Saren and the geth to get in.

[this isnt my name]

Smeelia wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Thats the point, as far as we know the reapers are invincible, it took the entire citadel fleet and the 5th fleet to take down 1 reaper. Here we have hundred , if not thousands. Aliance is wiped out, Turians are getting owned, so are Krogan/Salarian it seems and Bartarians are gone. That leaves quarians and geth really, not much, rachni for some people So no weakness, yet we will win. Somehow... its stupid.

By true ending I mean a canon ending.

We don't have anything like evidence that the Reapers are invincible, they may say so and are feared as such but it's pretty clear they're not.  We have seen one of them killed and it only did so much damage, remember the Geth fleet it had along with it.  It also didn't take anything like an impossible amount of damage to destroy (there's the shield issue but we don't know the true details of that) since it wasn't shot before entering the Citadel and died a little while after taking a barrage (from mostly comparitively smaller ships, that are now capable of equipping significantly more powerful weapons as of ME2).

There's so much we don't know that just filling in some blanks will turn what some people consider stupid into something that makes sense (until we get a final answer though we can't say for sure we will win or how).

Sith Reaper wrote...

I usually credit Arrival taking place after the Suicide Mission, as the ending shows a fleet of Reapers coming towards the galaxy's edge, and clearly not in the Alpha Relay system. I feel Arrival was meant to be played afterwards, but was given the capibility to do it before for whatever reason.

onelifecrisis wrote...

I get you, but I really hate the idea that it's somehow my fault that Bioware's game doesn't make sense, because I'm "playing it wrong". There are whole sections of dialogue made just so that people can play Arrival before the SM...

You could always consider the scene at the end of the Suicide Mission to be a kind of "flashback".

Still, I do think the whole "Arrival" business could have been handled better but there were possibly technical reasons they couldn't put it at the end of the game.

The focused fire on soverign, now they dont have that luxery, they do less damage to them as a result and they die much faster. Soverign died after shepard killed Saren while he was "possessed" may not be the ships.
As for geth, we saw in game theystill travel with reapers, so does verberus now, and the bartarians. They will constantly have new people from indoctrination, reapers cant be beaten.

[this isnt my name]

Jeth Prime wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

 they didnt close the relays to trap him.

They CAN'T close the relays to trap him. The Normandy (and presumably most Council vessels, now) has the Reaper IFF. This is why they're not hammering for the Citadel at a zillion miles any hour, because if they press the "no relays for the non-Reapers" button, people will just be able to override it.

For all we know the citadel could close relays completely. IFF excuse dosent work.

They have no controle over the citadel. That's why they needed Saren and the geth to get in.

I know, im saying thats why they should be going after the citadel not earth.

[KainrycKarr]

[quote]Vengeful Nature wrote...

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

[quote]

It's more efficient because it costs less energy, less time, less resources.

Just because you have the power, doesn't mean you'll expend it unless you have to.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 20 juin 2011 - 05:27 .

[Raiil]

this isnt my name wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

OP made a good post, and he should feel proud.

I think the Reapers coming to attack Earth does make at least some tactical sense. In the MEverse, humans are known for their (compared to others) unconventional warfare; although they have a small military compared to their general population, their military prowess is considered to be amount the best.

Or, as per the wiki:

The Alliance military is respected by the Citadel races for its novel tactics and technology (and not least for the fact the First Contact War had more turian than human casualties). Their strength lies in fire support, flexibility, and speed. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant" as only 3% of humans volunteer for military service. They make up for low numbers with sophisticated technical support (VIs, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative. Their military doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and logistics, destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to 'wither on the vine'.

On defense, the Alliance military lives by Sun Tzu's maxim, "He who tries to defend everything defends nothing."

If you're a machine of logic, the one thing you're going to want to do is get rid of the enemy who's known for irrational, yet somehow conclusively winning warfare. Humans are that enemy. Unpredictable, more powerful than it would be suggested by numbers, and a race that, even as a fairly new member of the galactic community, considered to be aggressive and out to prove something- you flush out the wild card as quickly as you can, because they'll be the thorn in your foot.

If reapers are logical they would divide and conquor, but thats just not happening. And your argument about humanity being a threat dosent work well when we find the aliance was wiped out already. The real threat to them is shepard. And they seem to have ignored him, the normandy got off earth, and they didnt close the relays to trap him. Thier current plan just isnt logical, im not a giant godlike machine, and even I know its stupid. Thier actions go against thier character.

Divide and conquer works best when there is one large, interlocked system. There isn't. The galactic community is compromised of numerous different political and social systems that have a decentralised point in the Citadel and in the nebulous 'galactic' civilisation theme. All of these communities work independantly; the Reapers can't take out one and take them out all out.

The Alliance still exists. Crippled, yes, but it hasn't been decimated. It's one group of many that's about to go poke the Reapers in the eye. That's one thing working against our wannabe overlords; they're fighting more than one war at a time.

Would you rather fight several armies at once or one at a time ? I know which one I would pick.
You divide them, by keeping them seperate, quarians stuck in one place, salarians another, turians another, etc.

That argument makes sense if the armies in question don't have fleets able to utilise  FTL speed capable of joining up with other armies, thus relaying information and firepower. 

As it is, nuking the main source of each group's power out of existence before they can join up with others makes tactical sense, at least if the Reapers believe that it's possible. Obviously it's not, since we manage to lift off, but we also have the latest, greatest in Alliance technology, Plot Armour.

Whether the Reapers realise that is a different question. We have meta-game knowledge, they do not.

[snowfox522]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

My major complaint is when people misunderstand what a plothole is. A character who does something stupid is not a plothole. Something unexplained is not a plothole. Something unlikely is not a plothole.

A plothole is any degree of those things. If a character says or does something extremely unlikely (either generally or in regards to their character), that is a plothole. Something unexplainable is a plot hole. Something very unlikely to the point of being impossible is a plot hole.

The Reapers misuse of several assets is a plothole. Where were the Collectors and their apparently powerful cruiser in ME1? Why do they need a new Reaper (made out of that ridiculous human casserole) when they are weeks away and could use the Alpha Relay to quickly capture the Citadel (I'm sure the entire combined mental might of the Reapers can undo whatever the Protheans did)?

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

Jeth Prime wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On
about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there,
unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks (1), they did with
everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own
IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I
liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green
idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going
to be defeated in ME3 ? (2) Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its
just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag
them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means
making them alot less epic.

I was a bit confused about
the dead reaper too.... But I'm sure they may use some seemingly
unimportant discovery in ME2 and maybe something from ME1 to help take
them down (3).... We won't know untill we play through it. No need to call
for plot holes and things that make no sence before we even know what
happens....

(1) Exactly. The Reapers develop sudden cases of idiocy whenever the plot demands them to. This Reaper is even still active, albiet at minimal capacity. Even if the Reapers missed it after that cycle, it would certainly be noticed the next time around.

(2) Because they aren't that powerful anymore. The plot demands them to be weaker, even though we have the example of Sovereign, who decimated an entire fleet singlehanded. Since we are apparently avoiding a deus ex machine in ME3 (says the devs), the only solution is to substantially nerf the Reapers' power.

(3) That's not the point. The point is that the derelict Reaper was there in the first place, when it shouldn't have
been. The consequences of the discovery don't matter, the fact that it was there in the first place does.

we don't know that the reapers are any weaker than what we saw from sovereign; we haven't seen one killed since sovereign.

It looks like there are hundreds if not thousands of reapers the fight seems completely hopeless unless something changes. That's kind of the outline for mass effect threes plot, not we can defeat the reapers now because there's a ton of them. the plot doesn't demand they be weaker the plot demands that the galactic races have to be stronger or else victory is impossible. and as far as the reapers developing a sense of idiocy I don't see how they've done anything wasn't smart.maybe it wasn't what you would've done; however I can't see how any part of their plan was bad or ill-conceived.

[KainrycKarr]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

This thread is a plothole.


And for any newcomer's sake (may they all burn for not having been fans in the first place!), add spoiler warnings to the very least in the topic title.

Is that a joke, or is there something specific you're talking about?

[LuPoM]

+1 for this nice thread

[Vengeful Nature]

[quote]KainrycKarr wrote...

[quote]Vengeful Nature wrote...

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

[quote]

It's more efficient because it costs less energy, less time, less resources.

Just because you have the power, doesn't mean you'll expend it unless you have to.



[/quote]

Strange formatting issues, there. Are you quoting yourself quoting me?

Anyway. It's incredibly wasteful and costs more energy, more time, more resources to keep on coming up with these daft backup plans. Sovereign dilly-dallying around for centuries? Wasteful. Makes paste out of humans to try and create a new Reaper, when your entire fleet is just weeks or months away and can do it themselves when they get here anyway? Wasteful.

The Reapers are exceedingly powerful. A mass invasion with hundreds of Reaper would guarantee an easy victory. No losses would be taken, because in the time that an opposing fleet can focus on one Reaper, it will take heavy losses. Even if they managed to destroy that one Reaper, it's one Reaper compared to hundreds of thousands of enemy ships. I think that meets the definition of efficient, myself.

[this isnt my name]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

My
major complaint is when people misunderstand what a plothole is. A
character who does something stupid is not a plothole. Something
unexplained is not a plothole. Something unlikely is not a plothole.

A plothole is any degree of those things. If a character says or does something extremely unlikely (either generally or in regards to their character), that is a plothole. Something unexplainable is a plot hole. Something very unlikely to the point of being impossible is a plot hole.

The
Reapers misuse of several assets is a plothole. Where were the
Collectors and their apparently powerful cruiser in ME1? Why do they
need a new Reaper (made out of that ridiculous human casserole) when
they are weeks away and could use the Alpha Relay to quickly capture the
Citadel (I'm sure the entire combined mental might of the Reapers can
undo whatever the Protheans did)?

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least
hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's
more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive
power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

Jeth Prime wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On
about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there,
unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks (1), they did with
everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own
IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I
liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green
idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going
to be defeated in ME3 ? (2) Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its
just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag
them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means
making them alot less epic.

I was a bit confused about
the dead reaper too.... But I'm sure they may use some seemingly
unimportant discovery in ME2 and maybe something from ME1 to help take
them down (3).... We won't know untill we play through it. No need to call
for plot holes and things that make no sence before we even know what
happens....

(1)
Exactly. The Reapers develop sudden cases of idiocy whenever the plot
demands them to. This Reaper is even still active, albiet at minimal
capacity. Even if the Reapers missed it after that cycle, it would
certainly be noticed the next time around.

(2) Because
they aren't that powerful anymore. The plot demands them to be weaker,
even though we have the example of Sovereign, who decimated an entire
fleet singlehanded. Since we are apparently avoiding a deus ex machine
in ME3 (says the devs), the only solution is to substantially nerf the
Reapers' power.

(3) That's not the point. The point is
that the derelict Reaper was there in the first place, when it shouldn't
have been. The consequences of the discovery don't matter, the fact
that it was there in the first place does.

I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

1. I agree, I hate this, it ruins character.
2. I agree, its stupid, like benezia in ME1 collapsing just from opening doors.

I
think BW should have just made a weaker enemy, look at the covenant in
halo. A challenge for humanity, but not completely overpowered, here the
writers didnt think ahead imo. They made an epic enemy, but they made
them too powerful, either they should live up to that, stay in character
and dominate everything. Or they shouldnt have been made like this in
the first place. It drives me nuts they made them, hyped them up and now
I see them and hate it becuase it just goes against them and ruins them
for me. If they had made themnormal in the first game then this wouldnt
be an issue for me.

[this isnt my name]

Valentia X wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

OP made a good post, and he should feel proud.

I think the Reapers coming to attack Earth does make at least some tactical sense. In the MEverse, humans are known for their (compared to others) unconventional warfare; although they have a small military compared to their general population, their military prowess is considered to be amount the best.

Or, as per the wiki:

The Alliance military is respected by the Citadel races for its novel tactics and technology (and not least for the fact the First Contact War had more turian than human casualties). Their strength lies in fire support, flexibility, and speed. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant" as only 3% of humans volunteer for military service. They make up for low numbers with sophisticated technical support (VIs, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative. Their military doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and logistics, destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to 'wither on the vine'.

On defense, the Alliance military lives by Sun Tzu's maxim, "He who tries to defend everything defends nothing."

If you're a machine of logic, the one thing you're going to want to do is get rid of the enemy who's known for irrational, yet somehow conclusively winning warfare. Humans are that enemy. Unpredictable, more powerful than it would be suggested by numbers, and a race that, even as a fairly new member of the galactic community, considered to be aggressive and out to prove something- you flush out the wild card as quickly as you can, because they'll be the thorn in your foot.

If reapers are logical they would divide and conquor, but thats just not happening. And your argument about humanity being a threat dosent work well when we find the aliance was wiped out already. The real threat to them is shepard. And they seem to have ignored him, the normandy got off earth, and they didnt close the relays to trap him. Thier current plan just isnt logical, im not a giant godlike machine, and even I know its stupid. Thier actions go against thier character.

Divide and conquer works best when there is one large, interlocked system. There isn't. The galactic community is compromised of numerous different political and social systems that have a decentralised point in the Citadel and in the nebulous 'galactic' civilisation theme. All of these communities work independantly; the Reapers can't take out one and take them out all out.

The Alliance still exists. Crippled, yes, but it hasn't been decimated. It's one group of many that's about to go poke the Reapers in the eye. That's one thing working against our wannabe overlords; they're fighting more than one war at a time.

Would you rather fight several armies at once or one at a time ? I know which one I would pick.
You divide them, by keeping them seperate, quarians stuck in one place, salarians another, turians another, etc.

That argument makes sense if the armies in question don't have fleets able to utilise  FTL speed capable of joining up with other armies, thus relaying information and firepower. 

As it is, nuking the main source of each group's power out of existence before they can join up with others makes tactical sense, at least if the Reapers believe that it's possible. Obviously it's not, since we manage to lift off, but we also have the latest, greatest in Alliance technology, Plot Armour.

Whether the Reapers realise that is a different question. We have meta-game knowledge, they do not.

They would still need relays to get to others.

Not really,becuase we can see shepard gathering people, they are joining up, this shouldnt be an option you leave to an enemy, and it wouldnt be if they knocked out the relay network.  Also the reapers arent just nuking things and moving on, they are landing, they have been at earth for about a week from the trailer.  They are setting up camp.

[KainrycKarr]

[quote]Vengeful Nature wrote...

[quote]KainrycKarr wrote...

[quote]Vengeful Nature wrote...

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

[quote]

It's more efficient because it costs less energy, less time, less resources.

Just because you have the power, doesn't mean you'll expend it unless you have to.



[/quote]

Strange formatting issues, there. Are you quoting yourself quoting me?

Anyway. It's incredibly wasteful and costs more energy, more time, more resources to keep on coming up with these daft backup plans. Sovereign dilly-dallying around for centuries? Wasteful. Makes paste out of humans to try and create a new Reaper, when your entire fleet is just weeks or months away and can do it themselves when they get here anyway? Wasteful.

The Reapers are exceedingly powerful. A mass invasion with hundreds of Reaper would guarantee an easy victory. No losses would be taken, because in the time that an opposing fleet can focus on one Reaper, it will take heavy losses. Even if they managed to destroy that one Reaper, it's one Reaper compared to hundreds of thousands of enemy ships. I think that meets the definition of efficient, myself.
[/quote]

Depends on how their resources of their "contingency" plans, matches up against physically conquering an entire galaxy system by system.

I'd say staying on cruise-control to the milky way while Sovereign paved the way would be less wasteful.

and yea....Idk what happened to the format