162 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

this isnt my name wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

My
major complaint is when people misunderstand what a plothole is. A
character who does something stupid is not a plothole. Something
unexplained is not a plothole. Something unlikely is not a plothole.

A plothole is any degree of those things. If a character says or does something extremely unlikely (either generally or in regards to their character), that is a plothole. Something unexplainable is a plot hole. Something very unlikely to the point of being impossible is a plot hole.

The
Reapers misuse of several assets is a plothole. Where were the
Collectors and their apparently powerful cruiser in ME1? Why do they
need a new Reaper (made out of that ridiculous human casserole) when
they are weeks away and could use the Alpha Relay to quickly capture the
Citadel (I'm sure the entire combined mental might of the Reapers can
undo whatever the Protheans did)?

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least
hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's
more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive
power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

Jeth Prime wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On
about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there,
unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks (1), they did with
everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own
IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I
liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green
idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going
to be defeated in ME3 ? (2) Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its
just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag
them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means
making them alot less epic.

I was a bit confused about
the dead reaper too.... But I'm sure they may use some seemingly
unimportant discovery in ME2 and maybe something from ME1 to help take
them down (3).... We won't know untill we play through it. No need to call
for plot holes and things that make no sence before we even know what
happens....

(1)
Exactly. The Reapers develop sudden cases of idiocy whenever the plot
demands them to. This Reaper is even still active, albiet at minimal
capacity. Even if the Reapers missed it after that cycle, it would
certainly be noticed the next time around.

(2) Because
they aren't that powerful anymore. The plot demands them to be weaker,
even though we have the example of Sovereign, who decimated an entire
fleet singlehanded. Since we are apparently avoiding a deus ex machine
in ME3 (says the devs), the only solution is to substantially nerf the
Reapers' power.

(3) That's not the point. The point is
that the derelict Reaper was there in the first place, when it shouldn't
have been. The consequences of the discovery don't matter, the fact
that it was there in the first place does.

I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

1. I agree, I hate this, it ruins character.
2. I agree, its stupid, like benezia in ME1 collapsing just from opening doors.

I
think BW should have just made a weaker enemy, look at the covenant in
halo. A challenge for humanity, but not completely overpowered, here the
writers didnt think ahead imo. They made an epic enemy, but they made
them too powerful, either they should live up to that, stay in character
and dominate everything. Or they shouldnt have been made like this in
the first place. It drives me nuts they made them, hyped them up and now
I see them and hate it becuase it just goes against them and ruins them
for me. If they had made themnormal in the first game then this wouldnt
be an issue for me.

Halo sucks.

[Vengeful Nature]

Jeth Prime wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

(3) That's not the point. The point is that the derelict Reaper was there in the first place, when it shouldn't have been. The consequences of the discovery don't matter, the fact that it was there in the first place does.

I didn't make any point about why it should be there. I said I was confused about the dead reaper, and nothing else....

Oh. Fair enough. Apologies.

Smeelia wrote...

The Collectors had a
specific purpose, it could be said to be unwise to throw away (or at
least put at great risk) a useful asset that they need for another
purpose within their plans.  The Collectors job is to search for and
collect the species to be used in constructing a Reaper.  Constructing a
Reaper is a goal in itself and separate to claiming the Citadel.  It's
also easy to forget that the Reapers are huge and don't seem to have a
way to do delicate work without indoctrinated/constructed servants (like
the Collectors, Keepers and Saren).

Ok, that would be a fair point is, as ME1 seems to suggest, the Reapers are still very very far away. But Arrival establishes that they are merely days or weeks away. Why create a new Reaper when you've got the cavalry round the corner anyway? That would be like a besieged city creating a new army when they are guaranteed relief by the real army in a matter of hours.

I think we're on shaky ground with the whole Reaper Procreation thing. Until it's explained better, we don't know if it's the point of the plan or not.

Sovereign
and the Geth, plus with Sovereign using the protection of the Citadel
arms.  In the battle, Sovereign personally only destroyed a few
cruisers.

A few human cruisers. The rest of the fleet took far heavier losses.

[this isnt my name]

KainrycKarr wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

 they didnt close the relays to trap him.

They CAN'T close the relays to trap him. The Normandy (and presumably most Council vessels, now) has the Reaper IFF. This is why they're not hammering for the Citadel at a zillion miles any hour, because if they press the "no relays for the non-Reapers" button, people will just be able to override it.

For all we know the citadel could close relays completely. IFF excuse dosent work.

If you don't know that it can or can't close relays, then you can't dismiss or accept the IFF excuse.

Ok say the IFF still lets him move around, it still stops entire fleets if the relaysare down, yet we see quarians bombing reapers from orbit.

[this isnt my name]

KainrycKarr wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

My
major complaint is when people misunderstand what a plothole is. A
character who does something stupid is not a plothole. Something
unexplained is not a plothole. Something unlikely is not a plothole.

A plothole is any degree of those things. If a character says or does something extremely unlikely (either generally or in regards to their character), that is a plothole. Something unexplainable is a plot hole. Something very unlikely to the point of being impossible is a plot hole.

The
Reapers misuse of several assets is a plothole. Where were the
Collectors and their apparently powerful cruiser in ME1? Why do they
need a new Reaper (made out of that ridiculous human casserole) when
they are weeks away and could use the Alpha Relay to quickly capture the
Citadel (I'm sure the entire combined mental might of the Reapers can
undo whatever the Protheans did)?

One thing people need to remember is this: It took an entire fleet to destroy Sovereign, at devastating cost. A entire fleet of these things is going to breeze through all known navies like a knife through cottage cheese. There are at least
hundreds of Reapers, very likely much more. People saying that it's
more efficient to act from behind the scenes are forgetting the massive
power of each individual Reaper, let along an armada of them.

Jeth Prime wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

The citadel could shut down relays completely for all we know, IFF or not.
On
about the IFF I still think its stupid a reapers was left there,
unnoticed. You would think they would cover thier tracks (1), they did with
everything else, also no one else fond it and it didnt destroy its own
IFF to prevent anyone using it. The further the ME games go on the less I
liek the reapers. I prefered space cthulu too the current soylent green
idiots. ME2 we learned little about them, how the hell are they going
to be defeated in ME3 ? (2) Without some new plot device or nerfing tem, its
just annoying me, they build this amazing race and characters then drag
them down I wish they had thought ahead with this, even if it means
making them alot less epic.

I was a bit confused about
the dead reaper too.... But I'm sure they may use some seemingly
unimportant discovery in ME2 and maybe something from ME1 to help take
them down (3).... We won't know untill we play through it. No need to call
for plot holes and things that make no sence before we even know what
happens....

(1)
Exactly. The Reapers develop sudden cases of idiocy whenever the plot
demands them to. This Reaper is even still active, albiet at minimal
capacity. Even if the Reapers missed it after that cycle, it would
certainly be noticed the next time around.

(2) Because
they aren't that powerful anymore. The plot demands them to be weaker,
even though we have the example of Sovereign, who decimated an entire
fleet singlehanded. Since we are apparently avoiding a deus ex machine
in ME3 (says the devs), the only solution is to substantially nerf the
Reapers' power.

(3) That's not the point. The point is
that the derelict Reaper was there in the first place, when it shouldn't
have been. The consequences of the discovery don't matter, the fact
that it was there in the first place does.

I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

1. I agree, I hate this, it ruins character.
2. I agree, its stupid, like benezia in ME1 collapsing just from opening doors.

I
think BW should have just made a weaker enemy, look at the covenant in
halo. A challenge for humanity, but not completely overpowered, here the
writers didnt think ahead imo. They made an epic enemy, but they made
them too powerful, either they should live up to that, stay in character
and dominate everything. Or they shouldnt have been made like this in
the first place. It drives me nuts they made them, hyped them up and now
I see them and hate it becuase it just goes against them and ruins them
for me. If they had made themnormal in the first game then this wouldnt
be an issue for me.

Halo sucks.

What a well thought out argument, tuely you have opened my eyes.
You know what sucks ? Mindless Biodrones defending poor writing, which is supposedly one of BWs strong points.

[MDT1]

this isnt my name wrote...
I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

The collector have about one ship? Why should it be risked? Sovereign didn't fail because he had to few firepower with him, he actuall plan never involved letting Shepard reopen the Citadel.
The rest of your points here seems valid though I guess they were informed about the the attack on the Citadel by the C-sec or someone else from Citadel.

[this isnt my name]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Ok, that would be a fair point is, as ME1 seems to suggest, the Reapers are still very very far away. But Arrival establishes that they are merely days or weeks away. Why create a new Reaper when you've got the cavalry round the corner anyway? That would be like a besieged city creating a new army when they are guaranteed relief by the real army in a matter of hours.

Well if we are questiong arrival, why the hell would the reapers leave behind an artifact telling organics about how long they have to live ?

And if you fail arrival you see death, destruction everything. How is ME3 any different, nothing has changed.

[Yakko77]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Shepard foiling all of these means the Reapers now have to do everything the hard way, relay by relay, costing them more energy, and allowing a resistance to form(enter Shepard and his motley crew of badassery).

That in part I think might be a key to beating the Reapers.  They've used a lot of energy, maybe enough to weaken their kinetic barriers.

[MDT1]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Sovereign
and the Geth, plus with Sovereign using the protection of the Citadel
arms.  In the battle, Sovereign personally only destroyed a few
cruisers.

A few human cruisers. The rest of the fleet took far heavier losses.

Did Sovereign actually destroy any Turian cruiser beside the one he flew trough?

[this isnt my name]

MDT1 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...
I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

The collector have about one ship? Why should it be risked? Sovereign didn't fail because he had to few firepower with him, he actuall plan never involved letting Shepard reopen the Citadel.
The rest of your points here seems valid though I guess they were informed about the the attack on the Citadel by the C-sec or someone else from Citadel.

They risked thier vangaurd, they risked beign discovered, I dont see why they shouldnt risk the ship.

Yes and reopening the citadel allowed the aliance to attack him.
Besides we see soverign getting attacked while the arms are open, before he posessed Saren, so it wasnt really an issue of stopping the arms opening. Hell why did he posess Saren ? Arms already open, already attacked, seems stupid.

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...
I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

The collector have about one ship? Why should it be risked? Sovereign didn't fail because he had to few firepower with him, he actuall plan never involved letting Shepard reopen the Citadel.
The rest of your points here seems valid though I guess they were informed about the the attack on the Citadel by the C-sec or someone else from Citadel.

They risked thier vangaurd, they risked beign discovered, I dont see why they shouldnt risk the ship.

Yes and reopening the citadel allowed the aliance to attack him.
Besides we see soverign getting attacked while the arms are open, before he posessed Saren, so it wasnt really an issue of stopping the arms opening. Hell why did he posess Saren ? Arms already open, already attacked, seems stupid.

And that one ship would have changed absolutely nothing. Great show. Good thing you're not running the Reaper campaign. Remember, that was a single cruiser. Sovey had a whole fleet of cruisers.

The arms were reopened because Shepard reopened them. Otherwise Reapers win. Sovey possessed Saren to kill Shepard and get control of the Citadel back so he could gate in the Reapers. If he succeeds then Reapers win.

It was a very good plan. And it keeps the cycle intact, which was the Reaper aim. They just never anticipated Shepard chasing down Saren and making it through the conduit. And then being able to fight his way through an army of krogan and geth. And then having a special prothean program to take back control of the citadel. I mean, how can you possibly plan for that?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 juin 2011 - 06:04 .

[Veex]

onelifecrisis wrote...


Okay... but I don't see how this helps explain what the human reaper was intended to do?

If I recall Mordin's observations correctly the reason the Reapers, and by extension the Collectors, are so interested in humanity is because they're genetically diverse. I got the impression that the reason the Reapers harvest the galaxy cyclically is to create or fix new and existing Reapers or simply expand and diversify their evolution.

This is the whole reason why the Protheans were turned into Collectors in the first place, they were incompatile for use as a new model of Reapers and some were genetically altered to serve as a grunt labor and fighting force. The Human Reaper, and why they're attacking earth and abducting humans, is an indication that we're a genetic fit for their goals and their main target for harvest.

Thats what I pulled out of ME2 on the subject anyway.

[Smeelia]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Smeelia wrote...

The Collectors had a
specific purpose, it could be said to be unwise to throw away (or at
least put at great risk) a useful asset that they need for another
purpose within their plans.  The Collectors job is to search for and
collect the species to be used in constructing a Reaper.  Constructing a
Reaper is a goal in itself and separate to claiming the Citadel.  It's
also easy to forget that the Reapers are huge and don't seem to have a
way to do delicate work without indoctrinated/constructed servants (like
the Collectors, Keepers and Saren).

Ok, that would be a fair point is, as ME1 seems to suggest, the Reapers are still very very far away. But Arrival establishes that they are merely days or weeks away. Why create a new Reaper when you've got the cavalry round the corner anyway? That would be like a besieged city creating a new army when they are guaranteed relief by the real army in a matter of hours.

I think we're on shaky ground with the whole Reaper Procreation thing. Until it's explained better, we don't know if it's the point of the plan or not.

Surely having the "cavalry" nearby is all the more reason to get started on the Reaper building project (you're going to be smashing those puny races soon anyway, might as well get on with things).

I'm not saying that it's definately the way things are but the fact that it can be pointed at and there's evidence to support it shows that there's no plot hole there for the moment (it could become one later if future revelations don't add up but as it stands it's a "we don't know" rather than "doesn't make sense").

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Sovereign
and the Geth, plus with Sovereign using the protection of the Citadel
arms.  In the battle, Sovereign personally only destroyed a few
cruisers.

A few human cruisers. The rest of the fleet took far heavier losses.

Sovereign destroyed only one (I think) Turian cruiser on the way in.  Almost all of the damage done to the fleets was by the Geth (even the damage to the Destiny Ascension, which is a Dreadnought).

this isnt my name wrote...

Well if we are questiong arrival, why the hell would the reapers leave behind an artifact telling organics about how long they have to live ?

And if you fail arrival you see death, destruction everything. How is ME3 any different, nothing has changed.

The artifact doesn't necessarily tell them how long they have to live, just that it seems to be transmitting to the Reapers (and as they close the transmissions change).  It was more that they discovered things through analysing the artifact than got all of their information from it.  Also, the Reapers seem to like being dramatic and it's maybe even part of their strategy (convincing people that you're invincible and unstoppable and that there's no hope is a good way to minimise resistance).

As for the "vision" at the end of Arrival, it's non-canon and just completing the Arrival mission gives you more time to prepare for the Reapers (and allows ME3 to exist).

Modifié par Smeelia, 20 juin 2011 - 06:16 .

[this isnt my name]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...
I agree, the
collectors not showing up to renforce soverigns attack was jsut stupid.
Also how was it the Aliance fleet was magically ready to show up ? They
werent envolved, and how did joker know to leave Ilos?

The collector have about one ship? Why should it be risked? Sovereign didn't fail because he had to few firepower with him, he actuall plan never involved letting Shepard reopen the Citadel.
The rest of your points here seems valid though I guess they were informed about the the attack on the Citadel by the C-sec or someone else from Citadel.

They risked thier vangaurd, they risked beign discovered, I dont see why they shouldnt risk the ship.

Yes and reopening the citadel allowed the aliance to attack him.
Besides we see soverign getting attacked while the arms are open, before he posessed Saren, so it wasnt really an issue of stopping the arms opening. Hell why did he posess Saren ? Arms already open, already attacked, seems stupid.

And that one ship would have changed absolutely nothing. Great show. Good thing you're not running the Reaper campaign. Remember, that was a single cruiser. Sovey had a whole fleet of cruisers.

The arms were reopened because Shepard reopened them. Otherwise Reapers win. Sovey possessed Saren to kill Shepard and get control of the Citadel back so he could gate in the Reapers. If he succeeds then Reapers win.

It was a very good plan. And it keeps the cycle intact, which was the Reaper aim. They just never anticipated Shepard chasing down Saren and making it through the conduit. And then being able to fight his way through an army of krogan and geth. And then having a special prothean program to take back control of the citadel. I mean, how can you possibly plan for that?

If I was incharge of the reaper cycle ME1 would have been as far as shepard got.

They never anticipated him. Its a lame excuse when soverign revealed himself, and then told shepard far too much info. He could have left out the cycle, pretended he was the last ofthe reapers or jsut you know, not talked so shepard wouldnt have any idea.

As for the protheans it was stupid, how did the VI sense indoctrination how could they study it they were away from it. How did they know the reapers sent a signal ? How did they know they went to darkspace ? How could vigil not maintain those life support pods, but survive 50,000 years later and have enough to make 2 huge forcefields.

The repaers had lots of options, indoctrinate the council, would be one good option, get Saren to give them a tour, then make them slaves. Not build a countdown artifact alerting organics. Have Saren fix the signal, we know the protheans changed it, we know what was changed, why not fix it ?

The list of reaper stupid mistakes continues to grow with the ME series.

[MDT1]

I wonder if we'll use nuclear weapon power to stop the reapers. The russians once blew up a hydrogen bomb that had about 1500 times the impact of a dreadnought round.

[Yakko77]

MDT1 wrote...

I wonder if we'll use nuclear weapon power to stop the reapers. The russians once blew up a hydrogen bomb that had about 1500 times the impact of a dreadnought round.

Hitting the Reapers with the Tsar Bomb?  Well, it might get their attention at the very least.

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

If I was incharge of the reaper cycle ME1 would have been as far as shepard got.

They never anticipated him. Its a lame excuse when soverign revealed himself, and then told shepard far too much info. He could have left out the cycle, pretended he was the last ofthe reapers or jsut you know, not talked so shepard wouldnt have any idea.

As for the protheans it was stupid, how did the VI sense indoctrination how could they study it they were away from it. How did they know the reapers sent a signal ? How did they know they went to darkspace ? How could vigil not maintain those life support pods, but survive 50,000 years later and have enough to make 2 huge forcefields.

The repaers had lots of options, indoctrinate the council, would be one good option, get Saren to give them a tour, then make them slaves. Not build a countdown artifact alerting organics. Have Saren fix the signal, we know the protheans changed it, we know what was changed, why not fix it ?

The list of reaper stupid mistakes continues to grow with the ME series.

These are actually good points.  Saren and Sovey were comic book villains, absolutely.  Saren could have covered his tracks but did not. You could argue that he did it because some small part of him was resisting indoctrination but at the beginning of ME1, he didn't seem very indoctrinated but more of a true believer.

And Sovey with the evil villian exposition is very comic bookish.

As I said, those could be argued as plotholes but they are small ones and considering ME is a homage to 80s science fiction, with its cheesy, comic-book villains, its easily forgiven, even embraced.

But who knows how the protheans figured this things out. The destruction of their civilization did take centuries, however, so its not really a stretch that they learned a few things. Again, just because something is unexplained does not mean a plothole. 

Indoctrination is a close-up thing. Sovey can't indoctrinate the council unless he's sitting at the citadel. So not an option.  

Again, you're basically arguing that Sovey's plan was bad because it failed. Yet, every other plan people have suggested could also fail. Risk/reward, Sovey's plan was the safest. He could stay hidden until the very end. It had the best chance of keeping the cycle intact. 

And from his arrogant viewpoint, plan B whether done then or done 2 years later would have the same effect. The Reapers likely have no doubt that they can militarily crush galactic resistance. But a frontal assault risks ending the cycle - races can escape and hide for thousands of years in such a huge galaxy. Meanwhile, their traditional sneak attack keeps everyone contained.

[Smeelia]

this isnt my name wrote...

If I was incharge of the reaper cycle ME1 would have been as far as shepard got.

Oh, don't bother.  You don't know everything about everything and neither do the Reapers.

You clearly don't like the game and would have preferred it if it was about the Reapers and let you play an unstoppable force destroying a galaxy of irrelevant beings.  That or you're misrepresenting your position with your hyperbole.  I expect you do like the game really, otherwise it'd be odd if you're on here talking about it so much.  Moving on...

this isnt my name wrote...

They never anticipated him. Its a lame excuse when soverign revealed himself, and then told shepard far too much info. He could have left out the cycle, pretended he was the last ofthe reapers or jsut you know, not talked so shepard wouldnt have any idea.

As for the protheans it was stupid, how did the VI sense indoctrination how could they study it they were away from it. How did they know the reapers sent a signal ? How did they know they went to darkspace ? How could vigil not maintain those life support pods, but survive 50,000 years later and have enough to make 2 huge forcefields.

The repaers had lots of options, indoctrinate the council, would be one good option, get Saren to give them a tour, then make them slaves. Not build a countdown artifact alerting organics. Have Saren fix the signal, we know the protheans changed it, we know what was changed, why not fix it ?

The list of reaper stupid mistakes continues to grow with the ME series.

The arrogance of the Reapers is pretty clear and what Sovereign tells Shepard isn't that important overall (you get most of the same information on Ilos and from other sources).

The protheans could have taken samples and sent scouts out, there are plenty of ways they could keep such a minor operation secret (sovereign manages to keep his spying secret too but there's no way he can see everything).  It's at least implied that the Protheans found out about the cycle before it started but didn't know enough details until it was too late (I think Vigil actually says this).  Vigil turns off the life pods specifically in order to maintain the signal and focus on keeping "key personnel" alive, the Protheans knew the Reapers were coming back and hoped to be able to do something about it eventually (though eventually the best they could do was delay it for the new races).

The Reapers don't have much information on what the Protheans did, even when they use the Conduit it's not instant to fix the problem (they maybe have to figure out the details and didn't get the data that Shepard gets).  They may have had other options on how to invade but there weren't any with guaranteed success, it's easy to point at alternatives and say they were better after you've seen the one that was chosen fail.

[Kreid]

this isnt my name wrote...

If I was incharge of the reaper cycle ME1 would have been as far as shepard got. 

They never anticipated him. Its a lame excuse when soverign revealed himself, and then told shepard far too much info. He could have left out the cycle, pretended he was the last ofthe reapers or jsut you know, not talked so shepard wouldnt have any idea.

Sovereign was full of hubris, that's what happens when you do your work efficently for millions of years flawlessly. If you see an ant trying to fight you are you going to take it seriously? Sovereign could have not anticipated it all, specially the special Prothean program, so Sovereign undestimating Shepard is actually a very valid excuse.

As for the protheans it was stupid, how did the VI sense indoctrination how could they study it they were away from it. How did they know the reapers sent a signal ? How did they know they went to darkspace ? How could vigil not maintain those life support pods, but survive 50,000 years later and have enough to make 2 huge forcefields.

Because he maintained a certain ammount of energy just in case? he anticipated a number of scenarios and waited patiently for an opportunity to help whichever organic species at the beginning of the next cycle, he explains it to Shepard actually.

The repaers had lots of options, indoctrinate the council, would be one good option, get Saren to give them a tour, then make them slaves. Have Saren fix the signal, we know the protheans changed it, we know what was changed, why not fix it ?

Yes, because Saren could, with not specific reason take the three most important people on the Galaxy and invite them to a "tour"...please.

Not build a countdown artifact alerting organics

There was no "countdown artifact" there are many Reaper artifacts around to use as bobby traps to indoctrinate organics (see Mass effect Evolution) and the docotor "theoryzed" the pulse the artifact emitted was sychronized to the Reapers, it's not like they left a big screen with the countdown out there you know.

Have Saren fix the signal, we know the protheans changed it, we know what was changed, why not fix it ?

The signal didn't change, the Keepers evolved to only obey commands from the Citadel and thus ignored Sovereign when he signaled them, there was no "fixing" that. 

The list of reaper stupid mistakes continues to grow with the ME series.

While it is true to a point that the Reapers streght/intelligence fluctuate to serve the plot, it seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions.

Modifié par Creid-X, 20 juin 2011 - 06:51 .

[ZLurps]

MDT1 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Sovereign
and the Geth, plus with Sovereign using the protection of the Citadel
arms.  In the battle, Sovereign personally only destroyed a few
cruisers.

A few human cruisers. The rest of the fleet took far heavier losses.

Did Sovereign actually destroy any Turian cruiser beside the one he flew trough?

Sovereign destroyed several cruisers in few seconds while being attached to conduict, each by one shot.

Modifié par ZLurps, 20 juin 2011 - 07:08 .

[Vengeful Nature]

MDT1 wrote...

Did Sovereign actually destroy any Turian cruiser beside the one he flew trough?

It's made pretty clear in ME2 that Sovereign and the Geth decimated the Citadel fleets.

Veex wrote...

If I recall Mordin's observations correctly the reason the Reapers, and by extension the Collectors, are so interested in humanity is because they're genetically diverse. I got the impression that the reason the Reapers harvest the galaxy cyclically is to create or fix new and existing Reapers or simply expand and diversify their evolution.

This is the whole reason why the Protheans were turned into Collectors in the first place, they were incompatile for use as a new model of Reapers and some were genetically altered to serve as a grunt labor and fighting force. The Human Reaper, and why they're attacking earth and abducting humans, is an indication that we're a genetic fit for their goals and their main target for harvest.

Thats what I pulled out of ME2 on the subject anyway.

But that's just not true, and one of the worst sins the ME2 writers inflicted on us. There other threads going into more detail about this, so I won't go into it more, but it's a complete crock of ****.

The whole human goo thing is so shaky that I don't think we can cite it as the whole reason the Reapers are doing what they do. Again, there are other threads that go into this in more detail.

Smeelia wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

If I was incharge of the reaper cycle ME1 would have been as far as shepard got.

Oh, don't bother.  You don't know everything about everything and neither do the Reapers.

You clearly don't like the game and would have preferred it if it was about the Reapers and let you play an unstoppable force destroying a galaxy of irrelevant beings.  That or you're misrepresenting your position with your hyperbole.  I expect you do like the game really, otherwise it'd be odd if you're on here talking about it so much.  Moving on...

I don't know about 'this isn't my name', but I do love the games and the universe, very much so. The reason I go on about these things is because I think the potential for great stories set in the universe is really great, one of the best science fiction universes in a long time IMO, but the more we get crap like Soylent Green genetic paste, "superior" human "genetic diversity", and dodgy Reaper plans, the more I despair.

The arrogance of the Reapers is pretty clear and what Sovereign tells Shepard isn't that important overall (you get most of the same information on Ilos and from other sources).

I'm not satisfied with this. I think that the Reapers, being millions of years more advanced and completely, coldly machine-like, are beyond arrogance. A "species" (for want of a better word) that's been around as long as the Reapers should be completely beyond human faculties such as hubris and morality.

This is what I saw in the Reapers in ME1. Lovecraftian horrors lurking beyond the galaxy's edge, unstoppable should they ever fully activate but dormant for now, with the trilogy made up of Shepard foiling plots to bring them back and ending with the galaxy seemingly safe for now.

EDIT: formating issues make my nose itch.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 21 juin 2011 - 10:42 .

[Kadzin]

Smeelia wrote...

AshleyS3 wrote...

I thought this thread was going to be about Legion...

Me too, I'm disappointed.

Son, I'm disapoint

[Darth Death]

The reapers are not all powerful, that's why they have to do everything in a devious fashion.

[Parion]

Okay, here we go. Be warned, this will be a tad messy.

It's true, if the Reapers are smart they would simply shut down the relays when they arive, just like Sovereign did when he attacked the Citadel.
Oh, Wait.
Logically, if the they don't do something that blindingly obvious it's because they can't do it. Okay, they could do it with the citadel, so again logic dictates that they don't have it... which makes a lot of sense to me. The citadel is thier "I Win" button, so it makes sense that they would coat it with the most significant and powerful defences they have to ensure it doesn't get damaged by any stellar events or by the acts of the lesser races in the eons between harvests, or deliberate attack once opened.
Even if they didn't, we have to remember that it's a mass relay... so they have to be very, very careful not to damage it, unless they want thier Win as a fine powder spread over several cubic lightyears.

Which explains nicely why they didn't start running towards us when sovereign initially failed to open the relay. Because claiming the citadel during conflict would be incredibly annoying, they decided instead to wait and see if sovereign could claim it alone.
It's the same difference as between getting your food served to you on a silver platter and having to hunt it down yourself.
I doubt it's a question of efficiency as much as it is pride. Having to work for thier goals is beneath them.

Now, my view of events is thus; the reapers probably started moving towards us the moment that soverign failed. However, they remained "asleep", with only harbinger being fully awake.
Harbinger then linked though his collecters to have a look around, notices that humans are capable/worthy of ascention, and decides that he might as well start the process already.
What we see at the end of ME2 isn't them starting to approach, it's them becoming fully active.

A couple of notes about the Reapinator; i think the closest parallel we have is reproduction, but that's not entirely accurate... he thinks human psychology could be "useful". By converting humans into a reaper he isn't so much reproducing as claiming a useful resource for his race, a'la borg assimilation.
This is also what I think the deal was with the "melting"... the fluid was nanotech which uploaded the victims' minds. He was harvesting thier psyche, memories, thier souls, if you will. This also explains it's form; the new "programs" use a form which matches thier subconcious body image.
This would also be a good reason why the reapers on the ground aren't simply going nuts indoctrinating everyone, they want to keep thier minds at least partially intact.


As for the derelict reaper, to quote a wise man:-
"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe
how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a
long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to
space."
Losing something for 37 million years, even something important as a reaper, is completely believable concidering just how ridiculously vast space is. It's like trying to find a needle in haystack the size of Jupiter.

As for why it's powered, it'd guess that it's probably automatically siphoning power directly from Mnemosyne, and maybe using mass fields to collect the solar wind for maintanence and maybe to fuel internal reactors.
It may even be the reason that Mnemosyne is a brown dwarf and not a star if it's eaten enough.


OT - Anyone else wondering if the series may end with the allied races abandoning the galaxy Migrant Fleet style via the Citadel Relay?

Modifié par Parion, 21 juin 2011 - 01:57 .

[Therefore_I_Am]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Your whole explanation of the storyline is exactly why I believe the Reapers are already defeated and nothing special needs to be employed.

((The rest of this post is just an explanation of that sentence.))

A race that is truly uber-powerful like the Reapers claim - would not need to sucker punch the galaxy through the Citadel. Yet, they do it - every time. I understand that it could be argued for "efficiencies" sake - but, I'm not sure that's all it is. I think they know that if they take on a galactic force head on the chances of them not succeeded rise exponentially.

Plus - I don't imagine the Reapers adapt very well. Legion criticizes an organics inability to think logically at all times - but, that's just because it's science fiction. Rational thinking is actually far inferior to imaginative thought - and while that's just my opinion, I wrote what I believe to be a very convincing synopsis of what the creators are trying to say in ME about individual free thinking being superior to mind-hive logic engines.

So - Shepard already "broke" the Cycle, and now the Reapers are just trying "Plan B" - which they've never had to do before so there's no data on how to proceed. As we see Legion get crippled a few times throughout the game because he's still "taking consensus" - I think the Reapers are already screwed.

You just can't beat the crazy that comes with being organic.

Also as said during Vigil's conversation, the Reapers absolutley fear a galaxy united against them, and they really are succeptible to attacks from other ships even though the reapers are powerful enough. They never underestimate. So they go about it all quietly.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 21 juin 2011 - 02:09 .