397 réponses à ce sujet

[Raxxman]

tjzsf wrote...

Why do people think that TCs make for a better gun from an in-verse point of view? Think about it, let's say you were a Vietcong. Would you want a gun that never runs out of ammo so the enemy can't attack your ammo supply line, or would you want a gun that turns into a stick once you run out of clips? Or let's say you're a sniper, where the precision nature of your combat role means that overheat is usually not a problem b/c you're hidden and can wait for the gun to cool down. Why would you switch from a ME1 SR that never runs out to an ME2 SR that, unless it's the Viper, will force you to slug it out with the enemy wielding your (not so) trusty SMG or pistol?

You say clips = no BS waiting for cooldown, I say overheat = no BS looking for clips and switching to a suboptimal gun because my preferred gun is out. And if you are packing a Widow or Mantis or Carnifex it is quite possible to run out simply because fewer clips drop than enemies killed/shots per clip, it is NOT an indication that I just need to get better at shooting.

Also, Overheat was only god-gun if you strapped two Frictionless mods together. Using a single case to negate the whole is bad logic, pure and simple. If you were like me and rather had 2-of-3 combitnations of frictionless, scram rail, and kinetic coil, taping down the fire button would be bad because I would overheat.

I want my unlimited ammo back. Failing that, I want my current TC to regenerate shots after long periods of not firing. Failing that, I want my clips to actually be universal so I don't have to use guns that are bad for a situation.

Wherein lies unreasonableness in any of these requests?

agree completely.

Running out of ammo because even though you've cloaking headshot every single round, insanity requires stupid amounts of damage to finish off anything that's not a grunt is just annoying. It doesn't add to tactical combat, because it just removes options.

You use the best weapon for the job until it runs out of ammo, then you switch to the second best weapon for the job until that runs out of ammo, and so on.

[Lumikki]

slimgrin wrote...

I thought cooldown was supposed to discourage shooting till overheat. Short controlled bursts.

They included clips to make gameplay feel like popular shooters.

This is intersting comment.

Why popular "shooter" is bad thing?
Why we need to shoot controlled burst?

They are popular because?

AMmayhem wrote...

Overheating in ME1 was unique to Mass Effect; provided different gameplay not found elsewhere.

Thermal clips in ME2 were not unique; every shooter since Medal of Honor has clips...

"Every" RPG has sertain same elements, like levels or progression.
Should we remove them too to make something more unique?

These RPG elements are popular because?

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juin 2011 - 09:52 .

[tobynator89]

I like the thermal mags. Both gameplay and lorewise. It shows that the tech in ME is practically minded.

Imagine you're in a firefight and your weapon overheats. For a trained soldier switching that heatsink would take less than a second considering the simplicity of the reload motion.



The heatsink is battery sized so you can carry them by the dozens easily. that trained reload time saves you a few seconds at tactically critical moments when you need your gun to be up and firing.

[Raxxman]

tobynator89 wrote...

The heatsink is battery sized so you can carry them by the dozens easily. that trained reload time saves you a few seconds at tactically critical moments when you need your gun to be up and firing.

You'd think but no.

I can't carry dozens around I can carry about 4 (it feels like).

Also why can't weapons carry multiple heat sinks? or maybe they do because you never actually load a heat sink, you just pop one out. Why don't weapons cool down when they're not used? does the heatsink perish each shot? Is that really better?

The concept that it's better trust me, doesn't wash with me, case point I run out of ammunition all the time. How are clips doing me a favour?

The system is irritating, I'm lugging around a machine pistol, when I really just want a machine pistols weight of ammo clips for my AR/Sniper rifle.

[tobynator89]

I was talking from a lore point of view. never seen a shooter that subscribes to realism, concessions are made to balance challenge and funfactor in all games, Its the reason why HALO is tons more fun than CoD. I tend to view ME series as two-parted in that respect. Combat gameplay mechanics are seperate from cutscene and lore mechanics and it's pretty obvious that bioware has set it up to work this way.

[marshalleck]

PureMethodActor wrote...

Sad, though, that Thermal Clips are remaining. Oh well. At least I hope they're more efficiently implemented.

 "Efficiently" seems like an unusual choice of words in this context. I'm curious, how do you feel the thermal clips were inefficiently implemented in ME2?

Modifié par marshalleck, 22 juin 2011 - 12:09 .

[nhsk]

I just always wondered why it is, than whenever I pop out a half empty clip it suddenly appears in a magic pool and I can keep inserting new clips that are full untill the end of my collective pool of shots.

A half empty clip is half empty

[Lumikki]

nhsk wrote...

I just always wondered why it is, than whenever I pop out a half empty clip it suddenly appears in a magic pool and I can keep inserting new clips that are full untill the end of my collective pool of shots.

A half empty clip is half empty

I don't understand you point?

How many ammos you can fire is related how much heat you weapon can direct to clips. Everytime you drop "hot" clip, it frees you clips slot, but it doesn't increase you current heat capacity. You put new cold clip to you weapon, it increase weapons heat capacity, compared to empty slot heat capacity. Weapon fire create's heat and it's directed to all clips. So, you weapon has more than one termal clip. So, when you reload, you drop one clip and put new one back.

How clips or weapons ammo capacity is related this?

You total ammo capacity is related how many termal clips you weapon can have and how much one shot creates heat. So, same clip can create different amount of ammo capacity in different kind of weapons, because the amount of heat creation per shot is different in different weapons

When we talk here about ammos, we mean mass particles what Mass Effect weapons fire. Mass Effect weapons doesn't really have seperated ammunitions. It's just big junk of "metal" mass where weapons picks small particle of "metal" to shoot. This big junk of mass where ammos are made, isn't part of termal clips at all.

What's the issue?

Are you maybe trying to say that reload and amount of ammos in weapons as calculation doesn't work correctly?
Do you know which termal clip the heat was directed? I assumed they are used one by one..

Example my weapons termal clip ammo capacilty is 8 ammos/clip. I have 5 clips in weapons. So, I have 40 ammos. I shoot 4 ammos, so now my ammo capacity is only 36, because one clip is half used. Now I reload, then I droped half used termal clip.  So, when I replace it, I get full empty termal clip. What means I'm back to 40 ammos.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juin 2011 - 02:06 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Raxxman wrote...

The concept that it's better trust me, doesn't wash with me, case point I run out of ammunition all the time. How are clips doing me a favour?

The system is irritating, I'm lugging around a machine pistol, when I really just want a machine pistols weight of ammo clips for my AR/Sniper rifle.

You have two squadmates who have 3 powers each; Shep has 6 powers and 4 or 5 different weapons - and you consider the system irritating b/c you're only interested in using one weapon all day long?

Funny. I consider that poor gameplay, not poor design.

[Sturmwulfe]

I didn't read the entire thread because I'm strapped for time, but has anyone proposed a hybrid system? One thing I found the most interesting about the first game when I first heard about it was the whole concept behind the weapons not needing ammunition in the traditional sense, and could fire indefinitely as long as the heat was maintained. Heck, it was enough to go and buy the game after watching my friend playing it back in the day.

While I admit the second one plays better, the thermal clips just don't seem like they fit the canon established by the first game. Since the weapons all work the same way but are upgraded to instantly cool them down with the thermal clips, wouldn't it stand to reason if you ran out of the clips you'd still be able to fire after waiting for a cool down period in the first game? If they seriously worked in a lock-out like in ME2 that prevented you from firing without thermal clips, that would be disastrous in a fire fight when you end up fighting against someone who was carrying the older, heat-cool down models. They only have to wait for you to run out of thermal clips before you're defenseless, unless you were a biotic. That fight that Wrex had that lasted that insanely long time? Couldn't have happened with thermal clips. On that note, it seemed kind of unrealistic that suddenly, everyone was switched over to the new system. Why not mix it up where some weapons in ME2 are thermal clip, some are cool down based, or make it all hybrid systems with longer cool down periods to encourage the use of finding thermal clips?

[Lumikki]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

Why not mix it up where some weapons in ME2 are thermal clip, some are cool down based, or make it all hybrid systems with longer cool down periods to encourage the use of finding thermal clips?

Because they did not try to improve lore, they tryed to improve combat gameplay.
If I remember correctly developers tryed hybrid, but they did not like it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juin 2011 - 02:27 .

[Dustbeard]

Sturmwulfe wrote...
I didn't read the entire thread because I'm strapped for time, but has anyone proposed a hybrid system?

I didn't read the whole thing either so forgive me if someone's already posted this, but you can edit coalesced.ini in ME2 (PC version) to make the overheating system a hybrid system if you want to.  It's a simple true/false toggle (I think) that sets it so that you can't reload your guns manually but the ammo counter slowly creeps back up if you don't fully discharge the clip. 
Some people don't like it but after playing the entire game with it enabled I can honestly say it's the only way I will play it now - stops you hitting 'reload' every five seconds and makes you think a bit about ammo conservation and tactical shooting rather than blasting away.  I find it to be the best of both worlds, eliminating the tedious waiting for cooldown from ME1 while being a less jarring combat transition from ME1 to ME2.

I'm afraid I can't remember where I found out which line you're supposed to mod, I'll try and find out later on if anyone's interested.

Modifié par Dustbeard, 22 juin 2011 - 07:44 .

[tjzsf]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You have two squadmates who have 3 powers each; Shep has 6 powers and 4 or 5 different weapons - and you consider the system irritating b/c you're only interested in using one weapon all day long?

Funny. I consider that poor gameplay, not poor design.

Also, powers have cooldown, some of us like shooting stuff, and some powers don't do enough damage such that I end up having to finish them with my gun anyway (the option to switch to a sidearm exists, bt that takes time to switch back to my main gun). I consider forcing me to use my sidearm because I've run out on my primary weapon (Shotty, AR, or Sniper) because enemies don't drop enough clips to make up for the number of shots I have to use to kill them even with 80-90% bodyshot accuracy is both poor gameplay and poor design.

Sidearms are there as a back-up on the off-chance that you ran out of your main gun. Not something you should be forced into using. Why the hell would I want to use my pistol or SMG if I have a better gun available?

[tjzsf]

Lumikki wrote...

When we talk here about ammos, we mean mass particles what Mass Effect weapons fire. Mass Effect weapons doesn't really have seperated ammunitions. It's just big junk of "metal" mass where weapons picks small particle of "metal" to shoot. This big junk of mass where ammos are made, isn't part of termal clips at all.

What's the issue?

Sorry, but no, when most talk about ammo, they mean the thermal clips. Everyone knows that the weapons shoot tiny metal sand grains such that while they technically can run out, it takes days of constant shooting to happen, so it's never an issue in game.

TCs aren't practical for an actual military organization to implement. basic logistics tells you this. Failing that, so does basic role playing (pretend you're a vietcong or a sniper. or a soviet in the rugged mountains of afghanistan)

[JayhartRIC]

nhsk wrote...

I just always wondered why it is, than whenever I pop out a half empty clip it suddenly appears in a magic pool and I can keep inserting new clips that are full untill the end of my collective pool of shots.

A half empty clip is half empty

You're holding ME2's shooter gameplay above any other shooter.  That is just as preposterous as asking why companions and enemies don't run out of ammo.  I can think of only one shooter that would actually save a half mag of ammunition.

[Sgt Stryker]

Raxxman wrote...

I can't carry dozens around I can carry about 4 (it feels like).

Only in gameplay-land. The mechanic of having to scrounge for dropped clips from dead enemies because you didn't bring enough on the mission is just that - a gameplay mechanic. It's similar to being able to carry 150 sets of krogan armor in ME1. No, it does not mean that Shepard had a magic backpack in ME1.

Raxxman wrote
Also why can't weapons carry multiple heat sinks? or maybe they do because you never actually load a heat sink, you just pop one out. Why don't weapons cool down when they're not used? does the heatsink perish each shot? Is that really better?

I always figured that each thermal clip consists of several small disposable heat sinks. When you hit the reload key, you eject the current sink and the clip chambers a fresh sink. Notice how in the reload animation Shepard never inserts a new clip, but instead just presses a switch or pulls back the slide. As for why they don't regenerate (read: cool off) over time? Beats me.

[dreman9999]

nhsk wrote...

I just always wondered why it is, than whenever I pop out a half empty clip it suddenly appears in a magic pool and I can keep inserting new clips that are full untill the end of my collective pool of shots.

A half empty clip is half empty

Omni- gel converters. Every unexplane tech in ME is omni-gel coverters.

[dreman9999]

....Has anyone just read the lore?
Word from word from Codex...

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.
......
Also, does any one remember that the Geth is a pure tech race?
And does anyone remember Sabotage from ME1 and it being a Tech power?

[Lumikki]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

As for why they don't regenerate (read: cool off) over time? Beats me.

This can be thinked two ways.

Why not create heat sinks what does cool off.
Why doesn't the current heat sinks cool off?
Maybe they are based some kind of chemical change. 

Next is just to understand chemical change, not to think this is the way..
Example: ice melts in heat, you can't change it back to ice just waiting.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[dreman9999]

Lumikki wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

As for why they don't regenerate (read: cool off) over time? Beats me.

This can be thinked two ways.

Why not create heat sinks what does cool off.
Why doesn't the current heat sinks cool off?
Maybe they are based chemical change. 

Next is just to understand chemical change, not to think this is the way..
Example: ice melts when heat comes it, you can't change it back just waiting.

Any one remember Incendiary Ammunition and High Explosive Rounds from ME1? These high hitting ammo upgrades quickly over heated your guns, indicating that the more damage the gun can make in one shot the faster the the heat sink over heats. This my mean that the guns in ME2 does so much damage that it overheats the heat shink to the point it takes a very long time to cooldown.

[ProRyker]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i wish weapons functioned like they did in ME2, but i had a overheat mechanic in stead of an ammo count. just make the weapons exactly the same, but make the weapon overheat in as many shots as it takes to "run out of ammo." wouldnt that be easy enough?

in ME1, i adore never having to reload. literally there wasnt anything better then never having to reload my weapon, my gun did that for me. i didnt have to waste the B button for reloading either, i could use it for an ability. one less thing to worry about. autoreloading means i could put more bullets down range faster too.

i always see people say they likeed ammo instead of overheating, but ive never seen a reason why one is better then the other. i just apreciated the feeling to combat ME1s overheating mechanic gave, and i surely miss it. i dont miss thermal clips.

Overheating vs Clips are pretty simular except for the overheating is a lazy man's shooter mechanic, where they don't have to search for clips (Ruins tactical approach) or reload and never have to worry about ammo.  Thermal clips makes the game more tactical because you have to be aware of how much ammo you have, and can't go around Godmoding like an idiot.  I am a fan of both RPG and shooters, and although I see your argument as a preferrence of yours, I don't see overheating as the best approach to combat in ME3.  Again it's lazy thinking that people don't want to spend time looking for ammo, or thinking about I have 25 shots left in this gun, and 6 enemies left I gotta play smart, get in close and use my shotty, which I have 10 rounds of which are one hit one kill.  However, you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree to it.

[ProRyker]

Raxxman wrote...

tjzsf wrote...

Why do people think that TCs make for a better gun from an in-verse point of view? Think about it, let's say you were a Vietcong. Would you want a gun that never runs out of ammo so the enemy can't attack your ammo supply line, or would you want a gun that turns into a stick once you run out of clips? Or let's say you're a sniper, where the precision nature of your combat role means that overheat is usually not a problem b/c you're hidden and can wait for the gun to cool down. Why would you switch from a ME1 SR that never runs out to an ME2 SR that, unless it's the Viper, will force you to slug it out with the enemy wielding your (not so) trusty SMG or pistol?

You say clips = no BS waiting for cooldown, I say overheat = no BS looking for clips and switching to a suboptimal gun because my preferred gun is out. And if you are packing a Widow or Mantis or Carnifex it is quite possible to run out simply because fewer clips drop than enemies killed/shots per clip, it is NOT an indication that I just need to get better at shooting.

Also, Overheat was only god-gun if you strapped two Frictionless mods together. Using a single case to negate the whole is bad logic, pure and simple. If you were like me and rather had 2-of-3 combitnations of frictionless, scram rail, and kinetic coil, taping down the fire button would be bad because I would overheat.

I want my unlimited ammo back. Failing that, I want my current TC to regenerate shots after long periods of not firing. Failing that, I want my clips to actually be universal so I don't have to use guns that are bad for a situation.

Wherein lies unreasonableness in any of these requests?

agree completely.

Running out of ammo because even though you've cloaking headshot every single round, insanity requires stupid amounts of damage to finish off anything that's not a grunt is just annoying. It doesn't add to tactical combat, because it just removes options.

You use the best weapon for the job until it runs out of ammo, then you switch to the second best weapon for the job until that runs out of ammo, and so on.

See thats where you are wrong, when you have to worry about ammo you use tactics because you have to, because you know if you run out of ammo you have to switch up your approach (via change tactics or using strategy) having semi infinite ammo in overheating rules out that type of thinking because you don't have to worry about it.  Because you don't have to worry about running out of ammo it makes combat less bothersom and worrying which is why people prefer it which is not a problem, but it doesn't make it tactical it makes it easier.  Being a fan of both RPGs and Shooters I can tell you to have a better veseral combat approach that Thermal clips is better than overheating.

[ProRyker]

Sorry double post

Modifié par ProRyker, 22 juin 2011 - 05:20 .

[Feanor_II]

I preffer overheating, it suits better to a futuristic setting than amunition.

Once I thought it could be a good idea to mix both, you have very little clips and you play with overheating, once the weapon overheats you must change the thermal clip. It makes more sense in my opinion, because thermal clips do not work at as disposable Heat Sinks, they work as amunition.