397 réponses à ce sujet

[vader da slayer]

Raxxman wrote...

tobynator89 wrote...

The heatsink is battery sized so you can carry them by the dozens easily. that trained reload time saves you a few seconds at tactically critical moments when you need your gun to be up and firing.

You'd think but no.

I can't carry dozens around I can carry about 4 (it feels like).

Also why can't weapons carry multiple heat sinks? or maybe they do because you never actually load a heat sink, you just pop one out. Why don't weapons cool down when they're not used? does the heatsink perish each shot? Is that really better?

The concept that it's better trust me, doesn't wash with me, case point I run out of ammunition all the time. How are clips doing me a favour?

The system is irritating, I'm lugging around a machine pistol, when I really just want a machine pistols weight of ammo clips for my AR/Sniper rifle.

The TC wouldn't cool down while just sitting in the weapon for the sole fact that the TC isn't designed like the heat sinks in ME1. Those heat sinks would have vented into the air around the gun while the TC wont have that due to the change in how the TC is installed and the other hardware used to lock it in place / eject it at overheat.

The system is blatantly better because it enables you to put more rounds down range in the same time span. By that I mean in a one minute time frame an ME2 weapon will put more rounds down range (ie at the enemy) than an ME1 weapon can. If you go to fire an ME1 weapon in a "no overheat" scenario (and you don't set up the weapon in game to break the overheat mechanic, ie just the stock weapon) you have to fire let it cool fire let it cool fire let it cool and so forth. where as with an ME2 system you fire, eject/reload, fire etc and that eject/reload happens faster than letting the weapon cool down. this is also assuming you let the weapon cool enough so that the succession of burst dont build up heat which would evenutally lead to an overload (and making the numbers of rounds/minute even more supportive of an ME2 system).

The best real world analogy I can give is this. A car runs on gas (bullets/rounds) and has to have air brought into the car to be mixed/compressed for the engine to run. there are 2 types of aspiration, normal and charged. a charged engine uses a supercharger or turbocharge (note charged isn't the techincle term keeping simple for the sake of arguement). both super and turbo chargers do teh same thing (increase air pressure at the intake manifold) but do it differently so to keep it as simple as possible we'll use a supercharger (increases intake air pressure before the manifold). now to the analogy.

A normally aspirated vehicle will get better mpg (ie has more rounds/bullets similar to an ME1 system, obviously not infinate but stay with me for now) while the supercharged vehicle will get less mpg but goes faster (better rounds/minute). these two vehicles go to race a half mile drag and you get to bet on which one is going to win. If I were to use your logic of how weapons were to work and apply it here I would come to the conclusion that the normally aspirated vehicle will win because it has endurance when the race is only a half mile drag (ie neither car will run out of gas) but I should bet on the normally aspirated car for the simple fact it has the ability to last longer (fire more quantity of rounds) as opposed to the car that will accelerate/go faster (fire more rounds/minute).

The point of the analogy is this, the unlimited ammo of ME1 is what makes the ME1 system terrible. A firefight will be so quick (you arent doing open field combat in which you may not know where all the enemy is and you are having to lay down cover fire in order to move) that on the wide and whole the amount of ammo doesn't matter. The fact that the weapons had the "unlimited ammo" (which lore wise it isn't unlimited but just a ton of ammo) gimped the weapons ability to match geth weaponries fire rates. And if you are constantly finding yourself runing out of ammo in ME2 you are doing something wrong that isn't a fault of the games system of implimenting new lore into the game world.

[netfrik]

Everybody can say their opinion. But we all know that Thermal clips are way better.

[Eurhetemec]

PureMethodActor wrote...

@marshalleck- its mostly the lack of Thermal Clips available on the battlefield in each level. Some had it ok, while other levels not even a pro shooter player could utilize without being forced to use an unfavorable weapon. Also, this quote is another huge part of it:

This is entirely BioWare's fault and it's totally fixable. Whilst I don't have the problem myself any more (I think past a certain point you get good enough at the game that it's not an issue - but I'm about to finish my 3rd Insanity playthrough and most people never get there), it's true that on my first couple of play-throughs (even on Veteran), it was obvious that the TCs were sometimes plentiful, and sometimes rare.

The problem is partly because enemies *randomly* drop TCs, rather than enemy X always drops a TC, and some levels seem to have TCs lying around, and others the designers seem to have simply forgotten it.

If they were more consistent with the level-design and amount of TCs vs. amount of enemies, and if they removed the randomised TC dropping, and made it either fixed - i.e. certain enemies always drop TCs or made enemies drop them if you had less than X TCs left, it would make more sense.

[TheMightySamael]

I would suggest a compromise have ammo lets say 500 rounds (no reload) for base AR and reintroduce thermal management. Decreasing and increasing heat generation and ammo were need be for different weapons types/derivatives.

Modifié par TheMightySamael, 22 juin 2011 - 10:55 .

[Lumikki]

TheMightySamael wrote...

I would suggest a compromise have ammo lets say 500 rounds (no reload) for base AR and reintroduce thermal management. Decreasing and increasing heat generation and ammo were need be for different weapons types/derivatives.

Not much to say, you have missed the hole point why ammos are limited in first place.

[AngelicMachinery]

No please, I like limited ammo... and more importantly I really hate the cooling time. Everything but the sniper rifle seemed like it took 10-15 seconds to cool down.

[The Spamming Troll]

dreman9999 wrote...

....Has anyone just read the lore?
Word from word from Codex...

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.
......
Also, does any one remember that the Geth is a pure tech race?
And does anyone remember Sabotage from ME1 and it being a Tech power?

what i see....

"hey guys, remember those unique and cool modable overheating weapons from the first game you spent 100s of hours playing? well, we totally got rid of them becaus we care more about new players enjoyment, then yours. so instead of using that old fasioned, completely moddable, limitless ammo weapon, were giving you something your great great great grandpa used to use. AMMO, baby! so deal with it. bye bye."

[MonkeyKaboom]

I think it should be super realistic and do both. We should have to manage ammo. And we should have to worry about overheating. If you fire for more than 2-3 second bursts your gun starts heating up and accuracy diminishes and remains lowered til returning to Normandy for repairs. Furthermore, do it too much and your barrel will randomly explode causing self damage or your firing block will melt and fuse. Either way, rendering the weapon unusable until repaired. Additionally, we should have to worry about water and sand infiltrating the weapon. Also throw in random gun jams due to double feeds, etc. Damage should also impair accuracy. Lastly, fatigue should increase throughout the mission decreasing accuracy.

[dreman9999]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

....Has anyone just read the lore?
Word from word from Codex...

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.
......
Also, does any one remember that the Geth is a pure tech race?
And does anyone remember Sabotage from ME1 and it being a Tech power?

what i see....

"hey guys, remember those unique and cool modable overheating weapons from the first game you spent 100s of hours playing? well, we totally got rid of them becaus we care more about new players enjoyment, then yours. so instead of using that old fasioned, completely moddable, limitless ammo weapon, were giving you something your great great great grandpa used to use. AMMO, baby! so deal with it. bye bye."

"Also, since you've been great guys.....We're going to let guys mod you weapons in the next game. You can increase your fire rate, accuracy, damage in a blink of an eye, but with the new ammo system. So it will be better then ME1."=]

[konfeta]

well, we totally got rid of them becaus we care more about new players enjoyment, then yours.

So, what, old players aren't allowed to enjoy ammo system more than the overheat system?

[The Spamming Troll]

ProRyker wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i wish weapons functioned like they did in ME2, but i had a overheat mechanic in stead of an ammo count. just make the weapons exactly the same, but make the weapon overheat in as many shots as it takes to "run out of ammo." wouldnt that be easy enough?

in ME1, i adore never having to reload. literally there wasnt anything better then never having to reload my weapon, my gun did that for me. i didnt have to waste the B button for reloading either, i could use it for an ability. one less thing to worry about. autoreloading means i could put more bullets down range faster too.

i always see people say they likeed ammo instead of overheating, but ive never seen a reason why one is better then the other. i just apreciated the feeling to combat ME1s overheating mechanic gave, and i surely miss it. i dont miss thermal clips.

Overheating vs Clips are pretty simular except for the overheating is a lazy man's shooter mechanic, where they don't have to search for clips (Ruins tactical approach) or reload and never have to worry about ammo.  Thermal clips makes the game more tactical because you have to be aware of how much ammo you have, and can't go around Godmoding like an idiot.  I am a fan of both RPG and shooters, and although I see your argument as a preferrence of yours, I don't see overheating as the best approach to combat in ME3.  Again it's lazy thinking that people don't want to spend time looking for ammo, or thinking about I have 25 shots left in this gun, and 6 enemies left I gotta play smart, get in close and use my shotty, which I have 10 rounds of which are one hit one kill.  However, you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree to it.

were not comparing gameplay in ME1 provided by dual frictionless materials tho. somehow over time and unfortunately, people have turned ME1s weapons into something as simple as simple as "stupid, because i could fire forever." even tho that arguments meaning is directly the opposite of what those people think.

i dont see how running out of ammo(have you ever actually run out of ammo, or are you just using this as an excuse?) is better for tactics. if you made a shooter and it contained a class that specialized in sniping, would you give that character a limit of 12 total shots?

also, reloading is not a tactical advantage. really? i appreciated the hell out of my weapon reloading for me in ME1. i loved never having to hit a button to fire more bullets. take a 6 shooter pistol for example. youd rather pop out of cover, shoot 4 bullets, and be stuck with 2 bullets until you reloaded, OR have your weapon put those bullets back in automatically?

i like my opinion better.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 22 juin 2011 - 11:53 .

[Guitar-Hero]

I liked overheating due to the fact that it was different than what most shooters offer, considering shooters are becoming more and more alike trying something different should be positive.

[The Spamming Troll]

konfeta wrote...

well, we totally got rid of them becaus we care more about new players enjoyment, then yours.

So, what, old players aren't allowed to enjoy ammo system more than the overheat system?

no, and im not saying new players wouldnt enjoy overheating instead of ammo either.

[Admoniter]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bocks wrote...

Just make a synthesis of the two systems. It's not that hard, Bioware.



Tell me why this would not be the best possible system for ME3.

They already made one, and they scrapped it, because it sucked.

And after playing with the ME2 "hybrid" system for any amount of time you realize why it sucked, i.e. they took the TC system as it was and just said "your ammo now regenerates, brah." Ofcourse it sucked, why wouldn't it suck? It was handled in such a way that no matter how they dressed it up it would have sucked. That is not a strike against a hybrid system its just a strike against the way they tried to implement it in ME2.

Modifié par Admoniter, 23 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[The Baconer]

netfrik wrote...

Everybody can say their opinion. But we all know that Thermal clips are way better.

I actually don't mind the thermal clips in practice. If they had just straight-up, blatantly retconned them in I wouldn't even care. My problem stems from how they're handled in where gameplay and lore meet.

Lore: See? We're not just making an excuse to put a conventional ammo system in our game. It's completely different.

Game: Okay, we lied. It's just regular ammo.

[MonkeyKaboom]

The Baconer wrote...

netfrik wrote...

Everybody can say their opinion. But we all know that Thermal clips are way better.

I actually don't mind the thermal clips in practice. If they had just straight-up, blatantly retconned them in I wouldn't even care. My problem stems from how they're handled in where gameplay and lore meet.

Lore: See? We're not just making an excuse to put a conventional ammo system in our game. It's completely different.

Game: Okay, we lied. It's just regular ammo.

According to codex, all it should have been called is regular ammo...

[McAwesum]

Steffen wrote...

I liked overheating due to the fact that it was different than what most shooters offer, considering shooters are becoming more and more alike trying something different should be positive.

I agree. It was different and I enjoyed that. If anything the overheat encouraged you to use more tactics than just "sit and shoot" If you keep shooting until your gun overheats than you arr shooting too much. Shoot sparingly; just shoot until you get within one or two shots from overheating then wait a second to start shooting and you're good. Or if it does overheat then you can switch weapons or start using your powers or use melee attacks. I thought it was very strategic; ME2's guns are more traditional. Just like every other gun in every other game. Which doesn't make them bad, they're just not as unique as ME1's guns.

I also had lot's of fun with the weapon mods in ME1. Putting increased Weapon's Force on my shotgun to knock enemies over. Or putting Plutonium Rounds that erode the enemies away. And who can forget Explosive Rounds. I had many a laugh watching Garrus blow up Geth with a shot from his Sniper Rifle with Explosive Rounds.

[Tony Gunslinger]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i dont see how running out of ammo(have you ever actually run out of ammo, or are you just using this as an excuse?) is better for tactics.

You've just answered that point with your next rhetorical question:

if you made a shooter and it contained a class that specialized in sniping, would you give that character a limit of 12 total shots?

Gee, if limited ammo doesn't make you think tactically, then why in the world would you be aware that there are 12 shots?

The Point <------------------------------------------------------------------> You

also, reloading is not a tactical advantage. really? i appreciated the hell out of my weapon reloading for me in ME1. i loved never having to hit a button to fire more bullets. take a 6 shooter pistol for example. youd rather pop out of cover, shoot 4 bullets, and be stuck with 2 bullets until you reloaded, OR have your weapon put those bullets back in automatically?

Weapon cooldown is dynamic. After shooting 4 bullets, I have no idea when I can get 6 another shots. If I shot again too soon, maybe I'm going to have less than 6, maybe not, and risk overheat fot 5-7 secs. So now I'm glancing at the cooldown bar instead of focusing all of my concentration on the fight. You are already juggling: enemies positions, enemy damage, health status, power cooldowns, and squadmates status in your head. Managing weapons cooldown is a distraction -- it is not a tactic that HELPS you, it's a mechanism to GIMP you. It will always keep you from performing at your best.

Reloading a new clip is a fixed, manually controlled constant. It will guarantee me 6 shots after 1.5 seconds by my choice. I will never need to look at any interface elements to know that I will 6 get shots when I need it.

In racing, to order to achieve your max performance, you never look at the speedo or tach, you listen to the gear shifts and rev sounds. After a long stretch and going into a turn, downshift 2-3 times, listen to the rev, shift up. If you're still looking at the meter, you're not performing at your best. It's the same thing in combat. You count your shots, you time your power cooldowns, you coordinate with squadmates, and you keep your eyes on your targets 99.9% of the time.

[Tony Gunslinger]

McAwesum wrote...

I agree. It was different and I enjoyed that. If anything the overheat encouraged you to use more tactics than just "sit and shoot" If you keep shooting until your gun overheats than you arr shooting too much. Shoot sparingly; just shoot until you get within one or two shots from overheating then wait a second to start shooting and you're good. Or if it does overheat then you can switch weapons or start using your powers or use melee attacks. I thought it was very strategic; ME2's guns are more traditional. Just like every other gun in every other game. Which doesn't make them bad, they're just not as unique as ME1's guns.

That's not tactics. That's a minigame your playing with your gun that has nothing to do with what's happening on the battlefield. If I want to land 6 shots on my enemy, I want it NOW.

These are tactical decisions: storm to another cover, use power, use squadmates, and then put 6 bullets into the enemy's head, and quickly plan it in advance. I know I can do it because I'm guaranteed 6 shots by pressing a button at my will, and not be dictated by a meter.

[MonkeyKaboom]

McAwesum wrote...
I agree. It was different and I enjoyed that. If anything the overheat encouraged you to use more tactics than just "sit and shoot" If you keep shooting until your gun overheats than you arr shooting too much. Shoot sparingly; just shoot until you get within one or two shots from overheating then wait a second to start shooting and you're good. Or if it does overheat then you can switch weapons or start using your powers or use melee attacks. I thought it was very strategic; ME2's guns are more traditional. Just like every other gun in every other game. Which doesn't make them bad, they're just not as unique as ME1's guns.

I also had lot's of fun with the weapon mods in ME1. Putting increased Weapon's Force on my shotgun to knock enemies over. Or putting Plutonium Rounds that erode the enemies away. And who can forget Explosive Rounds. I had many a laugh watching Garrus blow up Geth with a shot from his Sniper Rifle with Explosive Rounds.

LOL what?  How is that any different than ME2?  You start to run out of ammo, you change weapons.  Or better yet, use the appropriate weapon/abilities for the situation and you never have ammo trouble to begin with.

[slimgrin]

Steffen wrote...

I liked overheating due to the fact that it was different than what most shooters offer, considering shooters are becoming more and more alike trying something different should be positive.

That's what I thought. Overheating was a valid gameplay element to be tweaked, improved, expanded on. Instead they just threw it out.

Modifié par slimgrin, 23 juin 2011 - 01:43 .

[JayhartRIC]

 I hope they put a overheating weapon in ME3 and it does absolutely no damage and then Shepard says, "Now I remember why we switched to thermal clips.":devil:

[Praetor Knight]

slimgrin wrote...

Steffen wrote...

I liked overheating due to the fact that it was different than what most shooters offer, considering shooters are becoming more and more alike trying something different should be positive.

That's what I thought. Overheating was a valid gameplay element to be tweaked, improved, expanded on. Instead they just threw it out.

There is still overheating in ME2, but that is followed by ejecting that glowing orange thing and then resetting / "reloading" the weapon to keep firing.



Would having the weapons refill after a fight (Post-Combat) be a reasonable compromise?

I mean, using Purgatory again, instead of finding a Power Cell in the little Hallways between the larger rooms; what if the weapons simply refilled without needing to use Power Cells? (And you could have another Jacob style LM in ME3 without the controversies there of finding Thermal Clips lying about...)

[The Spamming Troll]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i
dont see how running out of ammo(have you ever actually run out of
ammo, or are you just using this as an excuse?) is better for tactics.

You've just answered that point with your next rhetorical question:

if
you made a shooter and it contained a class that specialized in
sniping, would you give that character a limit of 12 total shots?

Gee, if limited ammo doesn't make you think tactically, then why in the world would you be aware that there are 12 shots?

The Point <------------------------------------------------------------------> You

thats the argument your trying to offer me? im wrong because i know the widow holds 12 shots? (i just looked and the widow holds 13 total shots. isnt it annoying when people get that critical?)

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

also,
reloading is not a tactical advantage. really? i appreciated the hell
out of my weapon reloading for me in ME1. i loved never having to hit a
button to fire more bullets. take a 6 shooter pistol for example. youd
rather pop out of cover, shoot 4 bullets, and be stuck with 2 bullets
until you reloaded, OR have your weapon put those bullets back in
automatically?

Weapon cooldown is dynamic. After
shooting 4 bullets, I have no idea when I can get 6 another shots. If I
shot again too soon, maybe I'm going to have less than 6, maybe not, and
risk overheat fot 5-7 secs. So now I'm glancing at the cooldown bar
instead of focusing all of my concentration on the fight. You are
already juggling: enemies positions, enemy damage, health status, power
cooldowns, and squadmates status in your head. Managing weapons cooldown
is a distraction -- it is not a tactic that HELPS you, it's a mechanism
to GIMP you. It will always keep you from performing at your best.

Reloading a new clip is a fixed, manually controlled constant. It will guarantee me 6 shots after 1.5 seconds by my choice. I will never need to look at any interface elements to know that I will 6 get shots when I need it.

In
racing, to order to achieve your max performance, you never look at the
speedo or tach, you listen to the gear shifts and rev sounds. After a
long stretch and going into a turn, downshift 2-3 times, listen to the
rev, shift up. If you're still looking at the meter, you're not
performing at your best. It's the same thing in combat. You count your
shots, you time your power cooldowns, you coordinate with squadmates, and you keep your eyes on your targets 99.9% of the time.

how can you say managing cooldowns is a distraction, when everything in ME is on a cooldown? i suppsoe following ONE MORE bar on a screen filled with floating health bars, ammo counts, squadmates status, wahtever....but holy cow, that stinking overheat bar distracts the dickens out of you? youve played ME1 right? you can easily grasp your weapons potential in terms of overheating. following a overheat bar can be as easy as following an ammo count, anyways.

a cooled down weapon would equal 6 shots, just like a reloaded TC would equal 6 shots. although after you fire 1 shot with TCs, youll always have 5 shots left, while i wait like a millisecond and im back to 6. your looking at your ammo count because you have to reload, while im rarely looking at my overheat bar. lets also assume overheating weapons have the option to be reloaded with a new ammo block once the weapon overheats. if you want to get into the fight, put a new block in, if your out of block, fire at a slower pace, or wait for the cooldown. im not sure why an overheating mechanic needs to be explained so thoroughly.

i just dont see any benefit to have brought in the weapons that use TCs instead of making overheating "work." thats why im argueing so much for overheating weapons. bioware gave up far too easily.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 23 juin 2011 - 03:29 .