397 réponses à ce sujet

[FERMi27]

I say, bring back weapon overload, but leave thermal clips in place. That's where non-Soldiers will feel the lack of argument in a fight.

[ThemFlashlight-headedThings]

How many times is this going to be brought up? There should be a limit on the number of times a thread can be created on the same topic

[Bluko]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Paulinius wrote...
However, the retcon doesn't make sense story-wise.

Neither does ME1. In ME1 you have infinite ammo. Believe it or not those metal blocks are supposed to run out.

That's true.

I still prefer overheat mechanics though. (If for no other reason it's a break from continous and constant reloading present in most shooters nowadays.) It also encourages burst fire, etc. ME1 gets a bit messy since the end game sort of encourages "spraying" due to the sheer number of enemies and Krogan. Although it's not as if using more damage based mods isn't effective. (Scram Rail, Inferno Ammo, etc. will kill enemies much faster.)

Although I don't feel ME2 is much of an improvement since you usually end up putting close to a full clip of bullets into enemies anyways to kill them. I don't find burst fire being put into practice much in ME2 except if you're trying to hit enemies at a distance. Essentially ME2 still encourages spraying to take down enemies. There's too much emphasis on speed and not enough on making shots count to make Thermal Clips seem like a valid gameplay mechanic. (This is why ammo works well in Surivival Horror games like Dead Space and Resident Evil. In games like CoD's campaign ammo is just about pointless other then for the purposes of authenticity.)

My biggest dislike of Thermal Clips is I feel scrounging for ammo is completely pointless. Does anyone really like looking for ammo? What's fun about walking to locations where dead bodies were to pick up a glowing stick? Looking for new or different weapons is one thing, but mindlessly collecting ammo or "coins" serves no purpose other then being a time-sink.

[Saberchic]

When ME2 first came out, I missed the overheating and hated the clips. Now that I've got a handle on ME2, I actually prefer the clips to the overheating.

I'm not the best at shooting, so in ME1 I basically just sprayed everyone. In ME2, I had to stop and think about strategy a little more, not just open fire and watch my heat meter to make sure I didn't overheat.

[Veex]

Bluko wrote...

I still prefer overheat mechanics though. (If for no other reason it's a break from continous and constant reloading present in most shooters nowadays.) It also encourages burst fire, etc. ME1 gets a bit messy since the end game sort of encourages "spraying" due to the sheer number of enemies and Krogan. Although it's not as if using more damage based mods isn't effective. (Scram Rail, Inferno Ammo, etc. will kill enemies much faster.)

Although I don't feel ME2 is much of an improvement since you usually end up putting close to a full clip of bullets into enemies anyways to kill them. I don't find burst fire being put into practice much in ME2 except if you're trying to hit enemies at a distance. Essentially ME2 still encourages spraying to take down enemies. There's too much emphasis on speed and not enough on making shots count to make Thermal Clips seem like a valid gameplay mechanic.

I'm in the complete opposite camp. Not only is spraying detrimental due to limited ammo in ME2, it also now has damage modifiers for shot placement. If you aren't working on "making shots count" and you're just spraying with an AR or SMG you're not taking advantage of the system.

Mass Effect was the epitome of a spray and pray, no aim required scenario with heat sinks and no bonuses to limb or head damage. Mass Effect 2's combat changes reflect those issues directly.

[Durgon Ironfist]

lol You people thinking you can cry back overheat mechanics. IT'S DEAD AND NEVER COMING BACK STOP WASTING TIME AND ENERGY.

Signed,



The rest of the bioware fanbase.

[goofyomnivore]

I'll never understand why this debate has gotten so much attention. You can't change it. The differences are trivial. It is a retcon, but hardly "lore breaking" when you compare it to the other retcons.

It is honestly preference, but imo thermal clips make better balanced game play on higher difficulties.

[imadipp]

The problem is that those if favor of the heat system are advocating adding parts the system that is already in place to the old system to rebuild it, all the while they can just take the system that mass effect 2 uses with minimal upgrades simply because it's a new game. Even if there is a tie of people who want the new system proposed and those in favor of keeping the clip, one is already in place.

The heat system may add to mass effects difference as a shooter, but they seem to want to match the storytelling bioware is famous for with gameplay rivaling that of a well designed shooter. Clip/magazines are the norm for shooters, so bioware decided to take the route more people would be familar with.

[Lunatic LK47]

Pretty convenient that the ME1 combat defenders forgot about Sabotage and Damping FUBARing our weapons and powers which puts us out of the action for TWO ****ING MINUTES. Automatic death sentence if that were to happen, not to mention the caster classes only have access to training with a pistol.

[Whatever42]

Didn't like the overload system. Liked clips.

But we're arguing over whether chocolate is better than butterscotch - its completely subjective.

Fortunately for me, they're going with clips.

[crimzontearz]

sadly the thermal clips make NO sense..at all..especially given the way high end weapons were portrayed in ME1.

and even more sadly over heating is not coming back

[clopin]

I prefer having clips, but am I the only one that thinks that having a weapon mod that makes your gun overheat like ME1 would be cool if it was well implemented?

[Praetor Knight]

I'm fine with Thermal Clips, and at least IMHO, they make sense with what is known about the sort of friction and heat produced from firing projectiles at such velocities, from contemporary prototypes and with the visual evidence in ME2 (that thing Zaeed ejected from his weapon in his LM going the renegade route, was used as an igniter after all).

And I've seen videos on youtube where prototype rail guns produce plasma! (I've got a few youtube links in a blog that I have linked in my Signature, that shows what I mean about plasma.) So I guess ME1 and ME2 weapons likely are doing something similar IMHO.


Also, contemporary weapons have to watch for overheating, where if a barrel is too hot , it could expand to a point where the bullet can no long pass through the barrel, with some potentially nasty consequences for the user.


But I say there is always room for improvement, and I've thought of one way to make a change that does not need to really modify the weapons or deal with weapon mods.

What I mean is, to have the capacity to use my omni-tool to make more Thermal Clips, without being required to make Clip pickups, or find an Armory or Power Cells to restore my Thermal Clip capacity. The idea would only supplement the equipped weapon a small %, and function as a power with a cooldown as any other power using the omni-tool. At least it's an idea to think about.

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i always see people say they likeed ammo instead of overheating, but ive never seen a reason why one is better then the other. i just apreciated the feeling to combat ME1s overheating mechanic gave, and i surely miss it. i dont miss thermal clips.

Read my first post, there's the reason. Of course there is more, but that's the main point. Overheat is simple and promotes passive shooting combat.

this?

Lumikki wrote...

This has taked many times, but as opinion.

I consider termal clips better in gameplay perspective.

Overheat:
- Shoot untill overheat, a few second break, shoot until overheat. (This continues forever)
- When player comes out of cover? Only if no enemies to shoot. (You could stay there forever)

Termal clips:
- Shoot until reload clips (short break), shoot until reload clip. (This does not continue forever, because..).
- Weapon can run out of "ammos". What cause choise to player, run for more "ammos" or switch to other weapon.
- When player comes out of cover? When no enemies to shoot or when out of "ammos" and need to get more.

my problem is bioware did a 540 with its weapons. I(notice how i capitalized the "i" to emphasize myself) would have went a direction that followed ME1s. how would i have done that you ask???

-imagine ME1s overheating weapons WITHOUT mods
-add in ME2s standard/iconic weapon variety, along with whats being implied in ME3s mods
-implement a reload option, that when a player inserts a new ammo block, the weapon instantly is refreshed
-allow each class to carry a certain amount of replacement thermal blocks(like carrying medigel), soldiers carrying more so they are in the fight longer, casters carrying less
-done

....is it that easy?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 21 juin 2011 - 12:42 .

[Lumikki]

Yep, that's the one.

You system would be fine, expect it allows unlimited ammos. Meaning in middle of combat you never run out of ammos. I'm not sure how to explain this issue, but i try.

ME1 has active combat even if overheat it self support passive combat. Why? Because high armor system. Combat is allways balance between offense and defence. In ME1 player had high defence because armor and high offence because ability shoot forever. This creates rush like combat, where player can just rush directly agaist enemies and keep shooting a lot. Meaning actually taking cover is minimal. Player can stay in open areas a lot.

Now in ME2 they removed the high defence and made so that combat requires also defence as taking cover. It's balance between how long you can be in open and how much you need to be in cover. In ME2 case meaning very little in open and a lot in cover. It's defensive gameplay. Now if you how ever add for this unlited shooting, then player doesn't ever have to come out of cover and it is actually forcing player to be in cover, because lower defence. That cause passive gameplay too. So, only thing what force players out of cover middle of combat is players needs or wanting to get more ammos to some weapon. This can only be arrived by making sure that player runs out of ammos with some more powerfull weapons.

You may not need to run for ammos with submachine gun, but with sniple rifle you will. In ME1 case this never happens. It's totally two diffrent kind of combat style. Meaning ME2 combat is more defensive, while ME1 combat is offensive.

Point been: Unlimited ammos is the issue what cause passive gameplay, if defence of character is too low. If other hand characters defense is too high, then it will destroy all defensive gameplay and cause combat to be mostly offensive.

So, how about good balance in character defence? Problem is that in RPG progression it's allmost impossible to do, because characters and enemies change because progression, defined by players customation.

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 juin 2011 - 01:24 .

[The Spamming Troll]

...thats why i said ME1 weapons WITHOUT mods. admitting firing forever is a bad idea is the start so lets forget your gun ever being able to fire forever.

i was actually stuck on how to regulate ammo, but whats the point in regulating ammo? i always have enough ammo anyways, it doesnt even need to be discussed. theres alot of pros and cons about the amount of gross ammo, but regardless your gun is going to need to cooldown at some point, becasue of the limit of replacement ammo blocks. also, if i moded my AR to cover alot of different ranges, then ill want to use it at alot of different ranges. running out of ammo is a rareity, only heavy weapons need to be regulated. limiltess ammo also negates the need for flashing red cylinders. i just pick up ammo blocks when i pick up medigel.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 21 juin 2011 - 01:41 .

[Admoniter]

I can deal with the concept of TCs I just do not like the execution of them in ME2. There are two big things for me that make me hate them. One being how you either have so many that reloading isn't really an issue and you mine as well have infinite ammo and on the other end of the spectrum there is so little that you would make a survival horror game jealous. There is either no pressure and no need to make your shots count or so much that no matter what you do you will run out, just seems sloppy to me.

The other being the ability to conserve the left over shots from ejected thermal clips. Which naturally results in the ability to combine capacities, loading half empty clips, all this even though these are supposedly disposable heat sinks, so being able to do this makes no sense. And there is a fix that does not adversely affect gameplay in the slightest. Do what Doom 3 did when you reload the magazine is dropped and any additional rounds in it are left there. And bam just like that I will be alright with TCs.

That said I still prefer the overheat it was different and if refined and polished I'm sure it could have been great. In lieu of that I was actually hoping to see a proper hybrid system but oh well, disappointing but I can deal.

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

...thats why i said ME1 weapons WITHOUT mods. admitting firing forever is a bad idea is the start so lets forget your gun ever being able to fire forever.

Yeah, I notice, forever was without mod. Limiting the time of shooting with overheat break, just cause do player need to go cover because unable to shoot. So, you aren't just cover to avoid been hit, but because you aren't able to do anything else. In ME2 you go cover because avoiding been hit, in ME1 you go cover because unable to shoot.

Sorry, edited, text was mess..

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 juin 2011 - 02:03 .

[The Spamming Troll]

what?

[imadipp]

The ammo system of "pooling" ammo and simply taking a full clip from the pool is standard for the industry. Call of duty, Halo, Gears of war, they all follow the same pattern. It's an easier pattern for players to get used to and even if it's not realistic, it does well enough to not merit changing simply to be changed.

Ammo conservation is relative to the player, there is no golden number they can default to. A person running around spamming their assasult rifle will run out, while another who's placing shots better, using melee effectively and so forth, will conserve more ammo. the difficulty also plays a part in this.

@ the Spamming Troll;

ME3 is going to have mods once again, most likely integrating them with the clip style of ammo. At least from what i'm seeing so far from the E3 demons, which clearly shows the Mattock being reloaded via the clip system.

[Mann42]

I prefer Thermal Clips. You have to be a little smarter with your shots, because you can run out. The general flow of combat, through reloading, becomes more rhythmic. It is infinitely less frustrating than being forced into 5+ seconds of downtime. 

Early in ME1, you'd overheat after firing the equivalent of an ME2 clip. You'd then be out of the fight for 2 to 5 times longer than it takes to reload in ME2. To not overheat you had to constantly check that bar in the bottom corner (which isn't fun when you're also aiming), but even then you'd wait at least as long or longer than an ME2 reload to get back to 0 heat. It was dumb and the antithesis of fun.

Then by the end of ME1 you could just exploit the system with mods to fire near-infinitely. Fail. 

ME1 overheating is bad. Using it as an example of quality is bad.  Liking it means you either enjoy punishingly long downtime (which is a textbook definition of bad design), or you enjoy exploiting the mechanic to fire infinitely (which is a textbook definition of bad implementation). I reject both.

clopin wrote...

I prefer having clips, but am I the only one that thinks that having a weapon mod that makes your gun overheat like ME1 would be cool if it was well implemented?

I'm totally in support of special, unique weapons or unique uber-mods that have special effects or mechanics. That would just make the game feel more complete. 

Modifié par nexworks, 21 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[Malanek]

Good post nexworks, you nailed the issue.

[Lunatic LK47]

nexworks wrote...

I prefer Thermal Clips. You have to be a little smarter with your shots, because you can run out. The general flow of combat, through reloading, becomes more rhythmic. It is infinitely less frustrating than being forced into 5+ seconds of downtime. 

Early in ME1, you'd overheat after firing the equivalent of an ME2 clip. You'd then be out of the fight for 2 to 5 times longer than it takes to reload in ME2. To not overheat you had to constantly check that bar in the bottom corner (which isn't fun when you're also aiming), but even then you'd wait at least as long or longer than an ME2 reload to get back to 0 heat. It was dumb and the antithesis of fun.

Then by the end of ME1 you could just exploit the system with mods to fire near-infinitely. Fail. 

ME1 overheating is bad. Using it as an example of quality is bad.  Liking it means you either enjoy punishingly long downtime (which is a textbook definition of bad design), or you enjoy exploiting the mechanic to fire infinitely (which is a textbook definition of bad implementation). I reject both.

clopin wrote...

I prefer having clips, but am I the only one that thinks that having a weapon mod that makes your gun overheat like ME1 would be cool if it was well implemented?

I'm totally in support of special, unique weapons or unique uber-mods that have special effects or mechanics. That would just make the game feel more complete. 

Wish I had a ****ton of money and beer to give you. Said everything for me right here.