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Overheating VS Clips


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#51
Bluko

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Veex wrote...

I'm in the complete opposite camp. Not only is spraying detrimental due to limited ammo in ME2, it also now has damage modifiers for shot placement. If you aren't working on "making shots count" and you're just spraying with an AR or SMG you're not taking advantage of the system.

Mass Effect was the epitome of a spray and pray, no aim required scenario with heat sinks and no bonuses to limb or head damage. Mass Effect 2's combat changes reflect those issues directly.


The locational damage in ME2 is good. And certainly one of the better things about ME2's combat.

However locational damage is not reliant on Thermal Clips. Locational damage could just as easily have been implemented with the Overheat System. 

I am not advocating for the return of ME1 Combat. Many here seem to get confused when I suggest that specific elements return from ME1, that I'm actually asking for the whole game to come back. I'm not okay.

Only the Overheat System. Why? Because the addition of ammo only serves as a limitation and is otherwise a useless addition. A "cooldown" can be made to behave exactly the same as a "reload". Instead of using the appropriate weapon for encounters, you use the weapons with the most ammo capacity. Switching to a Sniper Rifle instead of an Assault Rifle rarely serves any purpose other then the conservation of ammo.

Some will argue that this good because it forces the player to change "styles". But that totally goes against the idea of choosing a class to begin with. I choose a Vanguard because I want to use Shotguns, not SMGs. I choose an Inflitrator because I wanted to use Sniper Rifles. If you want to use one weapon during an engagement that's what you should be able to do. And it shouldn't involve you getting needlessly shot to pick up more clips in some obscure location.

Seriously it's dumb. Say Shepard is facing an actual Sniper, but has run out of clips for his weapon of choice. The only Thermal Clips available are lying in the middle of battlefield. If Shepard runs out to pick them up they will most likely get sniped and killed. And is this exactly what people hated about ME1? That there gun would Overheat for 5 seconds and be useless and that they'd get killed?

Adding ammo may have been interesting if enemies actually used it themselves (but they don't). It's moronic that Shepard runs around the battlefield to pick up ammunition, but apparently no else is constrained that way. Do you really think the game would be broken or worse with essentially unlimited ammo, even though squadmates and enemies already work that way?

The challenge comes purely from the downtime mechanic, be it "reloading" or "cooldown". Is a Vanguard with the Claymore challenged due to the ammo capacity? No. It's entirely about the reload and whether they hit or miss in the first place. (ME2's downtimes are better, but adding ammo was not necessary for this.)

Think about it: In both ME1 and ME2 you have a Krogan charging at you. Let's say you're blindly firing off into the sky. In which game are you actually going to be better off by doing this? Niether. You'll either die or your squadmates might kill the Krogan for you. Only difference is in ME2 if you survive you must find clips after the Krogan is dead. It doesn't make the game any better. It just punishes making mistakes slightly, which typically get you killed anyways. And I hardly consider ammo scrounging a good way to enforce players make their shots count.

Modifié par Bluko, 21 juin 2011 - 02:44 .


#52
Davie McG

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The overheating system never really sat well with me in me1.

The fact you can just walk through the whole game like superman with a mini gun isn't fun, well it is quite fun for 10 mins when you first upgrade but then it get's dull.

In fact it entirely defeats the purpose of even having enemy's to shoot at all, might as well walk in and shoot up some boxes, in fact it it got to the stage where my HMWA X was better than the cannon on the mako... better than a CANNON! I know the word immersion gets thrown about a lot in these forums but overheating sh*ts all over immersion more than loading screens any day.

#53
Malanek

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Perhaps they can include a weapon mod that slowly regenerates ammo so that the people who like the old system can be appeased while those that don't can blissfully ignore it.

#54
Lumikki

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Malanek999 wrote...

Perhaps they can include a weapon mod that slowly regenerates ammo so that the people who like the old system can be appeased while those that don't can blissfully ignore it.

It would not work well, because sniper rifle. How slow you want that one ammo?
What's more benefit, run to pick clip or wait time amount of ?

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 juin 2011 - 02:57 .


#55
Lumikki

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Bluko wrote...

The challenge comes purely from the downtime mechanic, be it "reloading" or "cooldown". Is a Vanguard with the Claymore challenged due to the ammo capacity? No. It's entirely about the reload and whether they hit or miss in the first place. (ME2's downtimes are better, but adding ammo was not necessary for this.)

This one I don't get. What challenge has to do with waiting able to shoot?

I think bigger challenge comes when you have to take risk and run open middle of enemy fire to pick up clips, if you haven't manage you ability shoot with different weapons well enough.

Think about it: In both ME1 and ME2 you have a Krogan charging at you.

In ME1 I also charged agaist Krogans same time when they charged agaist me and I killed them with my pistol before they reached me. So, I just run over them like nothing at all. (This in vetaran difficulty, could work in hardcore too, but I don't think it's working in insanity)

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 juin 2011 - 03:11 .


#56
The Spamming Troll

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nexworks wrote...

I prefer Thermal Clips. You have to be a little smarter with your shots, because you can run out. The general flow of combat, through reloading, becomes more rhythmic. It is infinitely less frustrating than being forced into 5+ seconds of downtime. 

Early in ME1, you'd overheat after firing the equivalent of an ME2 clip. You'd then be out of the fight for 2 to 5 times longer than it takes to reload in ME2. To not overheat you had to constantly check that bar in the bottom corner (which isn't fun when you're also aiming), but even then you'd wait at least as long or longer than an ME2 reload to get back to 0 heat. It was dumb and the antithesis of fun.

Then by the end of ME1 you could just exploit the system with mods to fire near-infinitely. Fail. 

ME1 overheating is bad. Using it as an example of quality is bad.  Liking it means you either enjoy punishingly long downtime (which is a textbook definition of bad design), or you enjoy exploiting the mechanic to fire infinitely (which is a textbook definition of bad implementation). I reject both.

clopin wrote...

I prefer having clips, but am I the only one that thinks that having a weapon mod that makes your gun overheat like ME1 would be cool if it was well implemented?

I'm totally in support of special, unique weapons or unique uber-mods that have special effects or mechanics. That would just make the game feel more complete. 


i understand you COULD mod your weapon to fire forever, but lets pretend in ME3 you CANT.

whats the diference in reloading a weapon every time you croutched into cover, compared to letting the gun cooloff while you croutch into cover?  overheating guns means i can at the very least have sdecent burst steam of bullets(which would promote advancement into the overdone melee system), without needing a reload. TCs also means i have to run around outside of cover to accomplish a game mechanic that says my sniper rifle toting infiltrator carries a measly 11 shots.

my person favorite thing to happen to ME3 would be to implement a ME1 type pistol. not even mods, just an unmodded, underpowered, overheating pistol i can use when i run out of stupid ammo in ME3.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 21 juin 2011 - 03:16 .


#57
Malanek

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The Spamming Troll wrote...
my person favorite thing to happen to ME3 would be to implement a ME1 type pistol. not even mods, just an unmodded, underpowered, overheating pistol i can use when i run out of stupid ammo in ME3.

Even though I think the overheating system didn't play very well I support this idea for those who liked it. I can see people complaining about it being underpowered though.

#58
Lumikki

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

whats the diference in reloading a weapon every time you croutched into cover, compared to letting the gun cooloff while you croutch into cover? 

Difference as this situation is very small, even if I favor reload because it feels better than just wait. How ever, both cause just small time lost, nothing else.

overheating guns means i can at the very least have sdecent burst steam of bullets(which would promote advancement into the overdone melee system), without needing a reload. TCs also means i have to run around outside of cover to accomplish a game mechanic that says my sniper rifle toting infiltrator carries a measly 11 shots.

And here comes the difference between them, with TC you can't just keep shooting forever, you need to run for TC or change weapon, because out of ammos. That is the hole point. It creates tactical management of you weapons. With overheat system you can just sit in the cover and wait and use same weapon forever.

#59
Lumikki

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Malanek999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
my person favorite thing to happen to ME3 would be to implement a ME1 type pistol. not even mods, just an unmodded, underpowered, overheating pistol i can use when i run out of stupid ammo in ME3.

Even though I think the overheating system didn't play very well I support this idea for those who liked it. I can see people complaining about it being underpowered though.

You mean create game option what change how it works?

#60
Bluko

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Malanek999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
my person favorite thing to happen to ME3 would be to implement a ME1 type pistol. not even mods, just an unmodded, underpowered, overheating pistol i can use when i run out of stupid ammo in ME3.

Even though I think the overheating system didn't play very well I support this idea for those who liked it. I can see people complaining about it being underpowered though.


Many games do this already. While it's a bit cheeky, it would actually make sense in Mass Effect for the implementation of such a weapon.

They should call the pistol:

The Screamin' Fanboy Eagle

I don't expect the Devs will change Thermal Clip system, much less remove them. It's kind of pointless in retrospect of the damage done in ME2. But until I know that for certain it is to be, advocate away I shall.

Modifié par Bluko, 21 juin 2011 - 03:39 .


#61
clerkenwell

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I like thermal clips in terms of how they influence the rhythm of combat, but I don't like hunting around for clips in the middle of a firefight. Granted, that didn't happen very often, but it happened enough to be a noticeable nuisance. I'd like to see thermal clips actually become weapon agnostic. That's how they are in lore, one thermal clip fits all, but in game each weapon has its own reserve of thermal clips. My Sentinel carries 4 extra clips each for her Mattock, Locust, and Phalanx, but if I run through my Mattock clips I should be able to use one of the ones I have for my Locust or Phalanx. I say just give us 12 thermal clips total which can be used in all of our guns.

#62
Notanything

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Never liked thermal clips, I wasn't even a fan of the whole 'infinite ammo' combination of mods while playing, the damage output wasn't good enough compared to other more useful combos.

#63
Mr. MannlyMan

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clerkenwell wrote...

I like thermal clips in terms of how they influence the rhythm of combat, but I don't like hunting around for clips in the middle of a firefight. Granted, that didn't happen very often, but it happened enough to be a noticeable nuisance.


Especially when thermal clips end up influencing your tactical decisions. In a lot of fights, instead of moving to a strategically superior vantage point to snipe or issue commands, I actually had to stick around enemy spawn points or allow enemies to get near to me so that I would have a steady supply of ammo. It reminds me of camping near weapon spawns in Halo or Gears of War, not because I'm focused on the battle or on gaining strategic ground, but because I'm focused on collecting "resources" to keep the battle going.

It sucks. It's distracting. It doesn't offer any exclusive benefit to tactical depth that can't be achieved through tweaking enemy AI or good level design. And I even ended up changing positions and moving around more in ME1 than I did in ME2. Why? Because of the existence of crouch and not being forced to stay in cover to be able to fight effectively.

#64
Bogsnot1

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I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.

#65
Mr. MannlyMan

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Notanything wrote...

Never liked thermal clips, I wasn't even a fan of the whole 'infinite ammo' combination of mods while playing, the damage output wasn't good enough compared to other more useful combos.


Exactly. It might have been cool on the Casual or Veteran difficulties, but it turned into a very tedious and ineffective combo on Hardcore and Insanity. Especially when you're up against charging krogan; in those cases, you need high DPS, not unlimited clips. Heck, try fighting the krogan officer on Therum with the infinity-ammo mod combo on Insanity. Pretty damn frustrating.

#66
Mr. MannlyMan

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Bogsnot1 wrote...

I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.


Which is probably why Immunity was removed, brainiac.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 21 juin 2011 - 04:06 .


#67
konfeta

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It sucks. It's distracting. It doesn't offer any exclusive benefit to tactical depth that can't be achieved through tweaking enemy AI or good level design. And I even ended up changing positions and moving around more in ME1 than I did in ME2. Why? Because of the existence of crouch and not being forced to stay in cover to be able to fight effectively.

So your entire argument against thermal clips is essentially that you can't hoard a lot of ammo, hang back, and snipe your way through combat without effort or tactics..

#68
Malanek

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Lumikki wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
my person favorite thing to happen to ME3 would be to implement a ME1 type pistol. not even mods, just an unmodded, underpowered, overheating pistol i can use when i run out of stupid ammo in ME3.

Even though I think the overheating system didn't play very well I support this idea for those who liked it. I can see people complaining about it being underpowered though.

You mean create game option what change how it works?

No, I certainly don't mean having a game option. Just have a single weapon (or a small number of them) that work with the overheating system instead of thermal clips. Purely to cater to those who don't like thermal clips.

#69
raikwolf

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To me both have their pros and cons....
In ME1 if you have the best weapons mods you can shoot everything like a crazy berserker and your weapon will overheat after a LOOOOOONG shootout, if you're playing Hardcore the overheat can be your best option...because you won't lose precious seconds recharging or looking for thermal clips....BUT! this option makes the battle less interesting...:pinched:

Now in ME2 we have thermal clips. If you play in easy you won't notice anything, but in Hardcore and Insanity having thermal clips will make use squad powers, different weapons and of course you will have to be very accurate when shooting a target, just imagine how could it be if you have overheating and weapon mods.......You will take you Assault Rifle all the way and probably change it from time to time just because you're bored of using the same weapon...

I prefer thermal clips because the game is even more interesting specially when you have to watch you ammo in combat...but again overheating may come in handy in some scenarios B)

Modifié par raikwolf, 21 juin 2011 - 04:19 .


#70
imadipp

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Instead of clips, they could actually work with "Blocks" as the ammo, like the guns are supposed to use. More ammo, but a finite supply unable to be restocked besides finishing the mission and collecting a new one from the Normandy, or on long missions, a supply drop similar to the weapon boxes in ME2 that magically had all of your gear already stationed there.
Compromise?

#71
Praetor Knight

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imadipp wrote...

Instead of clips, they could actually work with "Blocks" as the ammo, like the guns are supposed to use. More ammo, but a finite supply unable to be restocked besides finishing the mission and collecting a new one from the Normandy, or on long missions, a supply drop similar to the weapon boxes in ME2 that magically had all of your gear already stationed there.
Compromise?


But ammo blocks and thermal clips are separate parts of the weapons in ME2.

And according to at least one of the books and the codex, a single ammo block can supply thousands of projectiles, (and I guess ammo powers have a hand in modifying this aspect of the weapons, since the three combat classes can swap the ammo in their weapons with only a ~1.5 second delay).


So the thing with Thermal Clips is that instead of having the gun heat up as in ME1, the Thermal Clip is supposed to absorb that heat for the weapon.

But the problem that many gamers seem to have about ME2, is how to replenish the supply for the carried weapons without only being able to take from the battlefield during a mission or an assignment, which is more of a gameplay issue than a lore issue, IMHO.

#72
Bogsnot1

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Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.


Which is probably why Immunity was removed, brainiac.


You obviously lack the required mental capacity to realise that the same tactic could have been used with AR instead if they didnt also incorporate an ammo system.

#73
imadipp

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I like the clip system but many people think having to switch weapons. They want a particular weapon either because it's their favorite, or they've upgraded it the most, and switching ot another weapon is inconvientent. Being an infiltrator and having to downgrade from the widow to a pistol or sub-machine gun because they're out of ammo is what they dislike, where as in ME1 they could fine whatever weapon they want basically forever, with small sections of time they had to weight for their heat to go down.

The problem is simply they didn't have enough ammo for their purposes.

#74
Eduadinho

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Replace the word jobs with overheating


#75
The Spamming Troll

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Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

overheating guns means i can at the very least have sdecent burst steam of bullets(which would promote advancement into the overdone melee system), without needing a reload. TCs also means i have to run around outside of cover to accomplish a game mechanic that says my sniper rifle toting infiltrator carries a measly 11 shots.

And here comes the difference between them, with TC you can't just keep shooting forever, you need to run for TC or change weapon, because out of ammos. That is the hole point. It creates tactical management of you weapons. With overheat system you can just sit in the cover and wait and use same weapon forever.



why do you keep bringing up firing forever? the overheating guns would overheat if you fired to long.

whats wrong with using my favorite gun forever instead of using running through my ammo ppols of my assault rifle, followed then my SMG, then my pistol? insteading of running out of my arbitrary number of bullets, im playing a game that allows me the freedom to choose what weapon i want to use and when. i just see way too many pros to a weapon that overheats compared to ME2s simplistic ammo system. i expect more brain activity out of a bioware game.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 21 juin 2011 - 04:49 .