397 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. MannlyMan]

konfeta wrote...

It sucks. It's distracting. It doesn't offer any exclusive benefit to tactical depth that can't be achieved through tweaking enemy AI or good level design. And I even ended up changing positions and moving around more in ME1 than I did in ME2. Why? Because of the existence of crouch and not being forced to stay in cover to be able to fight effectively.

So your entire argument against thermal clips is essentially that you can't hoard a lot of ammo, hang back, and snipe your way through combat without effort or tactics..

Well, let me throw that back at you; is your entire argument essentially saying that ammo clips force the player to employ military tactics, and that the absence of finite ammo would make said tactics unnecessaary?
I wouldn't say so. That would imply that close quarters combat is essential for having a fun and challenging experience. If you introduce a system where combatants are more likely to issue suppressing fire at snipers, then I think the issue of being able to blow through combat with a sniper would be partially solved. Besides, that argument doesn't discredit the overheat system. If anything, it discredits player choice and implies that every player must be forced to play a certain way.

What would be wrong with allowing players to hang back and snipe while they direct their teammates, exactly? If the levels are well-designed, then snipers will be forced to change position relative to enemy placement. As has been said numerous times, thermal clips are an artificial way of putting pressure on players to move around the battlefield when level design and AI aren't up-to-snuff.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.

Which is probably why Immunity was removed, brainiac.

You obviously lack the required mental capacity to realise that the same tactic could have been used with AR instead if they didnt also incorporate an ammo system.

your wrong, but im sure explaining why wouldnt be worth it.

[Massadonious1]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
 i expect more brain activity out of a bioware game.

You say that as if BioWare games and RPG's in general require a significant amount of "brain activity" in the first place.

"Oh look, a weapon that has a + bonus against Darkspawn. I wonder what creatures I should use that against. Spiders, maybe?"

Modifié par Massadonious1, 21 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.

Which is probably why Immunity was removed, brainiac.

You obviously lack the required mental capacity to realise that the same tactic could have been used with AR instead if they didnt also incorporate an ammo system.

Except that the issue you brought up is related more to balance, not the question of ammo/no ammo.

If Immunity had been as overpowered in ME2, you would have only needed to activate it, run out to grab some ammo, run back, and that would've been that. No very interesting. In ME1, if you had some God armor and mods equipped, you could run around sprayiny bullets with impunity. If the game had been more balanced, this would not have been the case.

[Praetor Knight]

imadipp wrote...

I like the clip system but many people think having to switch weapons. They want a particular weapon either because it's their favorite, or they've upgraded it the most, and switching ot another weapon is inconvientent. Being an infiltrator and having to downgrade from the widow to a pistol or sub-machine gun because they're out of ammo is what they dislike, where as in ME1 they could fine whatever weapon they want basically forever, with small sections of time they had to weight for their heat to go down.

The problem is simply they didn't have enough ammo for their purposes.

If that is the case then maybe one solution is to have armor mods that can provide a significant boost to the total spare number of rounds that could be fired.

And I don't mean like the Off-Hand Ammo Pack in ME2 that gave a 10% boost, I mean something that can really add to the number of rounds that can be fired by Shepard.

So for example, I've assumed that the Mantis stores inside of it, a limited amount of heat sink material, which equals a total of ten shots with that rifle. (And I guess the same holds true for other ME2 weapons, the Widow 13 the Phalanx 30 and so on, and for me at least that helps explain why the spare number of shots in weapons is not "universal")

And the Mantis can be resupplied from the Thermal Clips, Power Cells and from Armories to keep firing without overheating the weapon itself. I ask why not carry spares on the Armor?

So, for the Mantis, if a Thermal Clip refill provides one to two shots a Thermal Clip pickup in ME2, then having an armor mod that can store five thermal clips on the armor would then give an extra 10 shots for the Mantis.

So for the Infiltrator that should allow greater use out of that weapon. And depending on how that could work in the game engine, provide a universal source that the weapons carried can draw from.



And another alternative that I raised earlier, since Shepard does have an omni-tool, why not simply manufacture more Thermal Clips in the field? Just add a power that is a part of the global cooldown?

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 21 juin 2011 - 04:59 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Massadonious1 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
 i expect more brain activity out of a bioware game.

You say that as if BioWare games and RPG's in general require a significant amount of "brain activity" in the first place.

"Oh look, a weapon that has a + bonus against Darkspawn. I wonder what creatures I should use that against. Spiders, maybe?"

That's a pretty shallow explanation of RPGs, my friend. The main difference between hardcore RPGs and hardcore shooters is that shooters are more intuitive, while complex RPGs tend to have a steep learning curve. Much like hardcore RTS games.

[imadipp]

What would be wrong with allowing players to hang back and snipe while they direct their teammates, exactly? If the levels are well-designed, then snipers will be forced to change position relative to enemy placement. As has been said numerous times, thermal clips are an artificial way of putting pressure on players to move around the battlefield when level design and AI aren't up-to-snuff.

Thermal clips are a way to integrate the skills most FPS players already have and know how to deal with, ammo pools and reloading. I have -never- run out of ammo in the middle of a firefight to the extent that I'd have to solely rely on my powers. I have other weapons that have full ammo on my person, and having to use them is a part of playing the game. I've run out of sniper ammo before, sure, but all that does is force me to change my tactics, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Forcing a character to made decisions and change tactics is part of the game being a Third person shooter, inherent in it's design and implimentation.  Can the game be designed differerent to operate the way you want. Yes. Will it be? In this stage of development, I doubt it.

But what do we know? We have a while to argue.

[Massadonious1]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
 i expect more brain activity out of a bioware game.

You say that as if BioWare games and RPG's in general require a significant amount of "brain activity" in the first place.

"Oh look, a weapon that has a + bonus against Darkspawn. I wonder what creatures I should use that against. Spiders, maybe?"

That's a pretty shallow explanation of RPGs, my friend. The main difference between hardcore RPGs and hardcore shooters is that shooters are more intuitive, while complex RPGs tend to have a steep learning curve. Much like hardcore RTS games.

You never claimed that it wasn't factual.

And steep learning cuve my backside. It requires more micromanagement, maybe, but not an higher IQ. It was even prevalent back in the BG days.

A wizard just cast protection from normal weapons. You either 

1) Strip it
2) Not use normal weapons.

I fail to see how that is any different than switching to a heavy weapon, like a rocket launcher or the like, to take out....heavy targets that are generally immune to small arms fire.

[Bogsnot1]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.

Which is probably why Immunity was removed, brainiac.

You obviously lack the required mental capacity to realise that the same tactic could have been used with AR instead if they didnt also incorporate an ammo system.

your wrong, but im sure explaining why wouldnt be worth it.

I am more than willing to be proven wrong through rational, logical arguments. Thus far, it has happened very rarely. The fact that you have given up so easily seems to indicate that you dont have the rationality to stand behind your claims.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

I swear this thread is only ever bought up by brainless idiots whose idea of tactics in ME1 was to spam Immunity, stand in the open and shoot endlessly.

Which is probably why Immunity was removed, brainiac.

You obviously lack the required mental capacity to realise that the same tactic could have been used with AR instead if they didnt also incorporate an ammo system.

your wrong, but im sure explaining why wouldnt be worth it.

I am more than willing to be proven wrong through rational, logical arguments. Thus far, it has happened very rarely. The fact that you have given up so easily seems to indicate that you dont have the rationality to stand behind your claims.

*chortle* As if the your original quote was anything but irrational.

[Xerxes52]

In combat, I would keep the thermal clips. But once you're out of combat, your guns should bleed off heat (i.e. regenerate ammo), that way you're not going into the next combat encounter with low ammo because the previous group decided to be stingy.

[imadipp]

Nice idea. Basically limiting how many clips you have, as ammo, but having a sort of heat number for ammo. Let's say you have a machine gun with 100 ammo. Every shop takes one ammo. You can shoot until the gun overheats (when the number reaches zero) and then you have to eject the thermal clip to endure the gun doesn't destroy itself. While out of combat, the number steadily rises.

100 ammo isn't a relative number, just the purpose of the demonstration.

[Bogsnot1]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
*chortle* As if the your original quote was anything but irrational.

Go through the history of these threads, and you will see what I mean.

[Vit246]

Ah, how this issue may never die. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bioware should've went with the acceptable "hybrid" system they had actually developed earlier for ME2, but scrapped for the thermal clip system. The system where each gun had a overheating and a set number of clips, lets say.... 5 clips. If you overheated, you have to eject one clip. But if you controlled the overheating, you would never have to "reload". It would still be "tactical" and all those buzzwords people keep using.

Modifié par Vit246, 21 juin 2011 - 05:22 .

[Malanek]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
I am more than willing to be proven wrong through rational, logical arguments. Thus far, it has happened very rarely

In matters of opinion you are never going to be "proven" wrong. You can be "convinced" through a logical argument but of course that also depends on how open you are to differing ideas, not just the strength of the argument.

[Praetor Knight]

There are many threads on Thermal Clips, and there have been many ideas on how to make improvements, I guess we're around thirty threads devoted to Thermal Clips.


Here's two: http://social.biowar...3/index/5002527

http://social.biowar...2912/13#5690913



I wonder if someone at Bioware could give us a tid bit if there has been anything done with this for ME3, I know that I'd like to learn something new



And a fun quote: “Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.”

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 21 juin 2011 - 05:38 .

[Iwantobelieve]

Overheating was better. kthxbye.

[chester013]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Guns wrote...

Thermal clips suck.

No you suck. 
Thermal clips were the best thing to happen to the ME universe.

word yo.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
 i expect more brain activity out of a bioware game.

You say that as if BioWare games and RPG's in general require a significant amount of "brain activity" in the first place.

"Oh look, a weapon that has a + bonus against Darkspawn. I wonder what creatures I should use that against. Spiders, maybe?"

That's
a pretty shallow explanation of RPGs, my friend. The main difference
between hardcore RPGs and hardcore shooters is that shooters are more
intuitive, while complex RPGs tend to have a steep learning curve. Much
like hardcore RTS games.

You never claimed that it wasn't factual.

And
steep learning cuve my backside. It requires more micromanagement,
maybe, but not an higher IQ. It was even prevalent back in the BG days.

A wizard just cast protection from normal weapons. You either 

1) Strip it
2) Not use normal weapons.

I
fail to see how that is any different than switching to a heavy weapon,
like a rocket launcher or the like, to take out....heavy targets that
are generally immune to small arms fire.

Oh, so you're trying to show how RPGs are only as deep as their weapon weaknesses? Okay.

In that case I won't mention skill progression, economies, character equipment ("Who needs this heavy palamantium armor the most?") or player freedom ("Am I prepared to tackle that main quest, or should I level up before it?"). You're welcome.

[Maderek]

Why can't we have both clips and weapon overheats?

[Iwantobelieve]

Imagine Overheating in ME2 gameplay. What difference...?

[Bogsnot1]

Malanek999 wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
I am more than willing to be proven wrong through rational, logical arguments. Thus far, it has happened very rarely

In matters of opinion you are never going to be "proven" wrong. You can be "convinced" through a logical argument but of course that also depends on how open you are to differing ideas, not just the strength of the argument.

I'm always open to new ideas. Its the very basis for learning.
On this topic, I didnt mind either system. I never really used the "never overheat" mod system in ME1, as I was never a spray and pray style player, even when playing a soldier. Short, sharp, controlled bursts, immunity only ever used when sprinting from cover to cover.
Some will say my lack of concern over ME2's ammo "retcon" is because Im easily pleased, or a shooter fan. Neither is true. The whole point of any game, with the exception of relaxation and entertainment, is adapting yourself to work within the games limitations. I can adapt to most situations quicklyu and effectively, possibly because Ive been a gamer for longer than I care to imagine. Being a long time RPG player only helps to strengthen that adaptability.

[imadipp]

Exactly, the difference is minimal, I don't see why people consider it worth investing so much effort to change such a small part of the experience. My opinion I suppose.

[Massadonious1]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
Oh, so you're trying to show how RPGs are only as deep as their weapon weaknesses? Okay.

In that case I won't mention skill progression, economies, character equipment ("Who needs this heavy palamantium armor the most?") or player freedom ("Am I prepared to tackle that main quest, or should I level up before it?"). You're welcome.

To tackle the "character equipment" issue, you obviously give it to the person who needs the overall statistical upgrade the most. If it has stats like Block and Parry, then you give it to your tanking character. If you have two tanks, then the previous rules apply.

Common sense.

Look, I enjoy all types of games, but I'm not about to pretend that playing games within my chosen genre makes me more sophisticated or somehow more intelligent than everyone that doesn't, because that is factually incorrect. At the end of the day, all we're doing is pressing buttons.

[HTTP 404]

there's a lot chest puffing here. Doesnt really matter what any of us thinks in terms of overheating vs thermal clips. Its going to be thermal clips in Me3.

The best that could happen for those of us wanting just overheating is an underpowered gun that doesn't use thermal clips.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 21 juin 2011 - 05:52 .