I liked the extra care overheating provided, until I got Frictionless Materials IX and could just spam the Spectre Assault rifle X for days and days and days and days and days.... Even the Shotgun I could just spam non-stop. The thermal clips make me a lot more cautious and think a lot more about what I'm going to shoot first, what gun am I going to use for what situation, etc... For example if fighting a YMIR Mech surrounded by 5-7 Eclipse Mercs, I'm not gonna just unload my assault rifle for days onto everything because I have limited ammo, so I use my SMG to take down shields, then AR to take out armor then biotics to disable it so it can't shoot me while I shoot it (I usually play Vanguard on Insanity). Thermal Clips get rid of the invincible-i-win-way-to-easy gun, which I approve of.
Overheating VS Clips
Débuté par
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
, juin 20 2011 10:05
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#127
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 10:31
tjzsf
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Do not see why it's such a good thing that clips force you out of cover. One would think that would be another reason why military organizations would not adopt them, on top of the whole "your soldiers now need to reload again" thing. This is on top of how a gun without clips is now a stick, while a gun that overheated can still be a gun after a minute. As well as how it forces your troops to switch from the guns they're good at using (like non-Viper sniper rifles or non-Carnifex pistols) to sidearms. Also do not see why it's such a bad thing that it makes combat "simple". It's the future, one would presume shooting an advanced futuregun is simpler than shooting a modern gun, just like shooting a modern gun is simpler than shooting one of those flintlock rifles.
Clips would have been a good idea only if they were an actual improvement to your guns. Like, if they were an optional mod that let you skip being overheated for a certain number of times, and you fell back to the old overheat system once you ran out of clips, instead of your gun turning into a club.
*edit*: in addition, main gripe of "can just tape down fire button" is false with the Overheat system. This is only the case if you have multiple Frictionless mods strapped on. This is fixable by editing the stacking/percentage heat decrease of the frictionless mods, not by getting rid of the overheat system all together.
Clips would have been a good idea only if they were an actual improvement to your guns. Like, if they were an optional mod that let you skip being overheated for a certain number of times, and you fell back to the old overheat system once you ran out of clips, instead of your gun turning into a club.
*edit*: in addition, main gripe of "can just tape down fire button" is false with the Overheat system. This is only the case if you have multiple Frictionless mods strapped on. This is fixable by editing the stacking/percentage heat decrease of the frictionless mods, not by getting rid of the overheat system all together.
Modifié par tjzsf, 21 juin 2011 - 10:38 .
#128
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:17
Fhaileas
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tjzsf wrote...
*edit*: in addition, main gripe of "can just tape down fire button" is false with the Overheat system. This is only the case if you have multiple Frictionless mods strapped on. This is fixable by editing the stacking/percentage heat decrease of the frictionless mods, not by getting rid of the overheat system all together.
EXACTLY!!!
#129
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:26
Heimdall
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From a lore perspective, I have to say I prefer the overheat system. From a gameplay perspective however, I vastly prefer thermal clips.
At the end of the day, Thermal clips made combat a lot more enjoyable for me. So I approve of them in ME3
At the end of the day, Thermal clips made combat a lot more enjoyable for me. So I approve of them in ME3
#130
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:27
Someone With Mass
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Lord Aesir wrote...
From a lore perspective, I have to say I prefer the overheat system. From a gameplay perspective however, I vastly prefer thermal clips.
At the end of the day, Thermal clips made combat a lot more enjoyable for me. So I approve of them in ME3
Yep. Same here.
#132
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:35
fchopin
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There is no way i will be getting down on all fours to pick up silly clips, if Bioware want to use clips then make sure i can carry a few thousand on my person.
Only amateurs go in to a fight not prepared.
Only amateurs go in to a fight not prepared.
#133
Guest_Calinstel_*
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:40
Guest_Calinstel_*
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Of course Overheat sucked. It actually meant the player had to be careful with shooting instead of just pulling the trigger. Yes, the frictionless material mods 'broke' the game but how is that any different than finding thermal clips lying all around?
Just how DO you pick up a thermal clip and insert just enough to fill your weapon when you were only down 1 round? How do you 'reload' the weapon after firing 1 round and NOT lose a full thermal clip worth of shots?
Neither system is believable but in the SciFi setting of ME, thermal clips make less sense that overheating. That is, at least to myself they do. Then again, I may just like continuity in a game or story and not nonsensical changes.
Just how DO you pick up a thermal clip and insert just enough to fill your weapon when you were only down 1 round? How do you 'reload' the weapon after firing 1 round and NOT lose a full thermal clip worth of shots?
Neither system is believable but in the SciFi setting of ME, thermal clips make less sense that overheating. That is, at least to myself they do. Then again, I may just like continuity in a game or story and not nonsensical changes.
#134
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:41
Lumikki
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Because I'm not talking that you have to take small break from shooting because overheat. I'm talking that after the small wait you can continue shooting again with same weapon. Meaning you don't have to do anything else than small wait while sitting safe and you do same action again forever.The Spamming Troll wrote...
Lumikki wrote...
The Spamming Troll wrote...And here comes the difference between them, with TC you can't just keep shooting forever, you need to run for TC or change weapon, because out of ammos. That is the hole point. It creates tactical management of you weapons. With overheat system you can just sit in the cover and wait and use same weapon forever.overheating guns means i can at the very least have sdecent burst steam of bullets(which would promote advancement into the overdone melee system), without needing a reload. TCs also means i have to run around outside of cover to accomplish a game mechanic that says my sniper rifle toting infiltrator carries a measly 11 shots.
why do you keep bringing up firing forever? the overheating guns would overheat if you fired to long.
Shoot- wait- shoot-wait-shoot-wait-shoot-wait
In overheat it's like this forever, it doesn't change ever. Unless you have nothing to shoot.
This isn't same with termal clips. You have first same kind of action as overheat, but when you run out of ammo, situation change, you have to do something else. What you do is players choises. But you cant' keep doing same action with same gun forever.
So, the small wait (overheat) or reload (clip) isn't the issue. It's the never ending ammos what's the problem..
Exactly, you are looking RPG combat. The God gun combat as having you own best favor weapon to fix it all. Without ever have to do any effort for that cause. Like run to pick clips and risk you life because of it. No, you want to sit in safe and wait. Actually I'm sure you also want higher armors as better defence, because you don't want to be forced behind that cover in that passive combat style. What is again one step to closer RPG combat. God armor too. What means we are back to ME1 combat style.whats wrong with using my favorite gun forever instead of using running through my ammo ppols of my assault rifle, followed then my SMG, then my pistol? insteading of running out of my arbitrary number of bullets, im playing a game that allows me the freedom to choose what weapon i want to use and when. i just see way too many pros to a weapon that overheats compared to ME2s simplistic ammo system. i expect more brain activity out of a bioware game.
Modifié par Lumikki, 21 juin 2011 - 12:04 .
#135
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:49
HTTP 404
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Let's put it to a poll!
http://social.biowar...56/polls/21391/
vote for yer thermal clips or yer overheating!
http://social.biowar...56/polls/21391/
vote for yer thermal clips or yer overheating!
#136
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:58
Bogsnot1
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fchopin wrote...
There is no way i will be getting down on all fours to pick up silly clips, if Bioware want to use clips then make sure i can carry a few thousand on my person.
Only amateurs go in to a fight not prepared.
Im sure Bioware/EA will do a complete redesign because you not buying ME3 due to thermal clips will send them broke.
#137
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 12:15
BetaCarotene
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Well, to keep both camps happy,
why don't we give Shepard a power that allows the gun to be cooled? something like:
class Power: Heat Drain
"Shepard temporarily configures the Omni tool to drain heat from his/her weapon, allowing the weapon to fire without the need to expend Thermal Clips. The gun is also able to achieve higher power output with the aid of the Omni tool, rounds deal +X% damage. Thermal Clip counter changes to an 'overheat bar'. Heat drain lasts 20 seconds (example)"
Players can then choose whether to invest in this talent, albeit at the cost of other talents.
I, for one prefer Thermal Clips, I just wish they didn't pick them up automatically for you...
why don't we give Shepard a power that allows the gun to be cooled? something like:
class Power: Heat Drain
"Shepard temporarily configures the Omni tool to drain heat from his/her weapon, allowing the weapon to fire without the need to expend Thermal Clips. The gun is also able to achieve higher power output with the aid of the Omni tool, rounds deal +X% damage. Thermal Clip counter changes to an 'overheat bar'. Heat drain lasts 20 seconds (example)"
Players can then choose whether to invest in this talent, albeit at the cost of other talents.
I, for one prefer Thermal Clips, I just wish they didn't pick them up automatically for you...
Modifié par BetaCarotene, 21 juin 2011 - 12:17 .
#138
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 12:44
Eyerock
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Lore-wise, the idea of thermal clips isn't that much of a retcon as people think:
With the revolutionizing technology in the Mass Effect universe, weapon manufacturers would try to construct weapons with more power and increased effectiveness in combat. The first idea being guns with no need for ammunition. In theory: brilliant! No longer having to lug around ammo or reload during a fight, just keep firing.
However, after the first prototype is completed the manufacturers realize that there is a small flaw in the weapon. If one fires too many shots too quickly the weapon to overload, rendering it useless for a short period of time. Seemingly a minor issue, but in a fight every second counts. What if a single alliance soldier (without the special training and powers people like Shepard and his crew have) is up against a pack of varren, husks, vorcha or an armor clad krogan slowly working it's way towards him. He needs to be able to keep firing without his weapon suddenly stopping.
Some upgrades and mods to the gun lessens the handicap, but not everyone have that possibility.
So while this first version of the weapon is out (futuristic_sci-figun#1 if you will) the manufacturers start the plans for the new weapon.
Looking at ancient designs of human weapons that used ammunition they came up with another idea: Overheating ammunition, or as it is now called; The Thermal Clips.
With the first design the weapon could fire an unlimited number of shots, but it is in danger of overheating. Now all the technology that went into futuristic_sci-figun#1 is ported over to a teeny tiny vessel (or clip) that is placed into the gun before battle. Now, not unlike the previous gun design, the thermal clips overheat and are rendered useless after a number of shots are fired, However this overheating destroys the thermal clip and renders it useless forever.
Though, with only a quick tap on the side of the new and improved futuristic_sci-figun#2, the weapon "ejects" the destroyed clip which is instantly replaced by a new one. Every gun can hold quite a number of clips, so the danger of running out is very small as long as the soldier knows how to make every shot count.
Research have confirmed that the guns#2 are vastly more effective than guns#1 and can deal twice as much damage twice the time.
The Alliance have such good experience with this weapon system that you will find no human soldier without one, and some the most skilled gunmen in the whole galaxy have praised these amazing firearms:
"I love this rifle" - Garrus Vakarian
With the revolutionizing technology in the Mass Effect universe, weapon manufacturers would try to construct weapons with more power and increased effectiveness in combat. The first idea being guns with no need for ammunition. In theory: brilliant! No longer having to lug around ammo or reload during a fight, just keep firing.
However, after the first prototype is completed the manufacturers realize that there is a small flaw in the weapon. If one fires too many shots too quickly the weapon to overload, rendering it useless for a short period of time. Seemingly a minor issue, but in a fight every second counts. What if a single alliance soldier (without the special training and powers people like Shepard and his crew have) is up against a pack of varren, husks, vorcha or an armor clad krogan slowly working it's way towards him. He needs to be able to keep firing without his weapon suddenly stopping.
Some upgrades and mods to the gun lessens the handicap, but not everyone have that possibility.
So while this first version of the weapon is out (futuristic_sci-figun#1 if you will) the manufacturers start the plans for the new weapon.
Looking at ancient designs of human weapons that used ammunition they came up with another idea: Overheating ammunition, or as it is now called; The Thermal Clips.
With the first design the weapon could fire an unlimited number of shots, but it is in danger of overheating. Now all the technology that went into futuristic_sci-figun#1 is ported over to a teeny tiny vessel (or clip) that is placed into the gun before battle. Now, not unlike the previous gun design, the thermal clips overheat and are rendered useless after a number of shots are fired, However this overheating destroys the thermal clip and renders it useless forever.
Though, with only a quick tap on the side of the new and improved futuristic_sci-figun#2, the weapon "ejects" the destroyed clip which is instantly replaced by a new one. Every gun can hold quite a number of clips, so the danger of running out is very small as long as the soldier knows how to make every shot count.
Research have confirmed that the guns#2 are vastly more effective than guns#1 and can deal twice as much damage twice the time.
The Alliance have such good experience with this weapon system that you will find no human soldier without one, and some the most skilled gunmen in the whole galaxy have praised these amazing firearms:
"I love this rifle" - Garrus Vakarian
Modifié par Eyerock, 21 juin 2011 - 12:45 .
#139
Guest_Calinstel_*
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 01:02
Guest_Calinstel_*
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Nice write-up. Backwards but nice.Eyerock wrote...
Lore-wise, the idea of thermal clips isn't that much of a retcon as people think:
With the revolutionizing technology in the Mass Effect universe, weapon manufacturers would try to construct weapons with more power and increased effectiveness in combat. The first idea being guns with no need for ammunition. In theory: brilliant! No longer having to lug around ammo or reload during a fight, just keep firing.
However, after the first prototype is completed the manufacturers realize that there is a small flaw in the weapon. If one fires too many shots too quickly the weapon to overload, rendering it useless for a short period of time. Seemingly a minor issue, but in a fight every second counts. What if a single alliance soldier (without the special training and powers people like Shepard and his crew have) is up against a pack of varren, husks, vorcha or an armor clad krogan slowly working it's way towards him. He needs to be able to keep firing without his weapon suddenly stopping.
Some upgrades and mods to the gun lessens the handicap, but not everyone have that possibility.
So while this first version of the weapon is out (futuristic_sci-figun#1 if you will) the manufacturers start the plans for the new weapon.
Looking at ancient designs of human weapons that used ammunition they came up with another idea: Overheating ammunition, or as it is now called; The Thermal Clips.
With the first design the weapon could fire an unlimited number of shots, but it is in danger of overheating. Now all the technology that went into futuristic_sci-figun#1 is ported over to a teeny tiny vessel (or clip) that is placed into the gun before battle. Now, not unlike the previous gun design, the thermal clips overheat and are rendered useless after a number of shots are fired, However this overheating destroys the thermal clip and renders it useless forever.
Though, with only a quick tap on the side of the new and improved futuristic_sci-figun#2, the weapon "ejects" the destroyed clip which is instantly replaced by a new one. Every gun can hold quite a number of clips, so the danger of running out is very small as long as the soldier knows how to make every shot count.
Research have confirmed that the guns#2 are vastly more effective than guns#1 and can deal twice as much damage twice the time.
The Alliance have such good experience with this weapon system that you will find no human soldier without one, and some the most skilled gunmen in the whole galaxy have praised these amazing firearms:
"I love this rifle" - Garrus Vakarian
Going from not needing to constantly reload to actually running out of ammo, making the gun useless, is a backwards step in weapons evolution. Enemy groups could easily change the type of clip needed, rendering all their clips useless in your weapon. And all that would take is keying the clip with a slot. Just like you can't slap a AK47 mag into a M16.
Thermal clips are pointless in any contexted except to make ME more of a shooter. That is all. A modern day, not futuristic, one at that.
#140
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 01:23
Someone With Mass
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I like how everyone for the overheat system assumes that the kind of heatsinks Shepard used in the guns in ME1 to achieve such high cooldown is available everywhere and everyone can afford them, like if it's standard issue.
Modifié par Someone With Mass, 21 juin 2011 - 01:24 .
#141
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 01:25
sponge56
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were people seriously this pissed off about clips when they first played me2?! For me it was simply an 'oh, this is different' and then I finally realised that it made the gameplay far more fun than it was in me1. Of all the things people are nostalgic for in me1, combat should not be one of them
#142
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 01:36
Kaesh
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TexasToast712 wrote...
Neither does ME1. In ME1 you have infinite ammo. Believe it or not those metal blocks are supposed to run out.Paulinius wrote...
However, the retcon doesn't make sense story-wise.
True, but in the codex it says that ammo is a "non-issue", and considering that the missions you do aren't prolonged fire fights but more run and gun, and that each gun can hold the equivalent of several thousand rounds, it sticks lore wise.
#143
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 01:40
Someone With Mass
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sponge56 wrote...
were people seriously this pissed off about clips when they first played me2?! For me it was simply an 'oh, this is different' and then I finally realised that it made the gameplay far more fun than it was in me1. Of all the things people are nostalgic for in me1, combat should not be one of them
I too thought it was a breath of freash air to not have to deal with the overheat BS anymore.
Not to mention that the stats affected guns were gone, which was also a big bonus for me. Just picked up whatever gun I liked and used it without shooting myself in the foot.
#144
Guest_Calinstel_*
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 01:56
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Personally, I don't believe they are that common. They are, as you said, expensive as hell and only the elite soldiers might actually have them. Hell, if heatsink III had been the highest available that would have been fine. Look at our current day cooling systems. Peltier devices, heat tubes and such. With the heat coming off any of the ME guns, ceramic armors make sense just in keeping the heat away from the soldiers bodies the same way the space shuttle uses them.Someone With Mass wrote...
I like how everyone for the overheat system assumes that the kind of heatsinks Shepard used in the guns in ME1 to achieve such high cooldown is available everywhere and everyone can afford them, like if it's standard issue.
The blocks of ammo material are not infinite. They may only hold enough material for 1000 rounds, but in the battles in ME, that never really came into play. Thermal clips insert an artifical limit on weapons where ME1 already had limits.
The say and spray some reference was also negated by the fact that ME2 shields were one hit wonders. No where could Shepard stand and fire, having to take cover quickly. The introduction of clips was unneeded, IMO of course.
#145
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 02:12
Lumikki
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In lore point sure, but in gameplay perspective there is huge difference for players fun. Of course not all people find they fun same way. How ever question is, do we players really want ME1 type of combat back? I hell don't.Calinstel wrote...
That is all. A modern day, not futuristic, one at that.
#147
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 02:28
JRCHOharry
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Hmm, I like the lore of overheating but I've become unusually fond of the "schklink-ink" noise whenever I pick up some thermal clips...
#148
Guest_Calinstel_*
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 02:51
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I actually never understood the 'game play' issues.Lumikki wrote...
In lore point sure, but in gameplay perspective there is huge difference for players fun. Of course not all people find they fun same way. How ever question is, do we players really want ME1 type of combat back? I hell don't.Calinstel wrote...
That is all. A modern day, not futuristic, one at that.
If you are referring to needing to learn, in game, how to aim a weapon, I agree. That was a silly system but, that had nothing to do with the weapons themselves.
In ME1, shields actually worked, negating the steady stream of rounds until the higher levels were reached. In ME2, shields didn't, negating the need to change the weapons.
#149
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 03:09
Raxxman
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What I never understood was how Shepard always ejected clips, but never loaded a single one into any gun.
#150
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 03:20
Someone With Mass
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Calinstel wrote...
I actually never understood the 'game play' issues.
If you are referring to needing to learn, in game, how to aim a weapon, I agree. That was a silly system but, that had nothing to do with the weapons themselves.
In ME1, shields actually worked, negating the steady stream of rounds until the higher levels were reached. In ME2, shields didn't, negating the need to change the weapons.
The funny thing is that the shields in ME2 are more true to the lore than the ones in ME1.
Personal shields in Mass Effect weren't made to absorb dozens and dozens of bullets. They were more designed to buy the wearer time to get to cover.
