175 réponses à ce sujet

[CannonO]

Skip to the last paragraph for a briefing on what I'd love to hear you all discuss about the morality. The body of this post is my experience, which while I enjoyed both games, I felt an imbalance in the morality. Tell me what you all thought in your playthroughs.

So this has been mentioned in articles and probably on these forums, but ME2 Paragons were more like ME1 neutrals. My ME1 Shephard was that best, last, hope for humanity that represented the shining force people prayed for in the galaxy. He sounded kind, even when he had to shut down his enemies and the foolish. He was so clearly being a good, incorruptible officer that was here to defend the galaxy.

ME2 arrives and paragon has slipped lower. I get that it is darker and I even planned on picking more of a mix between neutral and paragon with a rare Renegade choice in the mix too. I start to play and to my surprise, the Paragon options aren't setting me off on the good curve I hoped for. I wanted Shephard to be the good man he was in my ME1 playthorugh with some distress over the new situation, but he wasn't showing up. His positive responses were no longer full force in the Paragon direction. He lacked that convinced nature of a determined Paragon and instead was feeling out his situations more like a neutral character. He had several leanings toward a more approachable guy, but not a clear right hero. I was caught off guard by some situations where it felt like the game got rough without my decision really counting. It was like the game forced Shephard to be a darker guy, whether you shone light on his path or not.

It basically could be summed up as Paragons in ME2 become the human decency option that neutral already had in ME1. Renegades got the big stuff and interrupts while my goodness was small and felt so minimalized. I realize now that my post makes it sound huge, but really it was too big for me. I felt too bad for my ME1 Shepard.

IGN had a mention of this in their ME3 wishlist (which I mostly agree with, save a few exceptions). xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1138506p1.html

What is everyone's stance on the controllable morality across the series? Do you feel like it has been consistent. Are there adjustments you need for the system to improve? Is Paragon/Renegade too weak/strong feeling when you select those options? Unload.

[King Zeel]

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED!

Modifié par King Zeel, 20 juin 2011 - 11:31 .

[LGTX]

I think it comes from the story. Paragon defines actions "by the book", and in ME1, Shepard was on the Alliance's payroll and a poster boy for the Council, righting wrongs across the Traverse and kicking Saren's butt and generally came off as an intergalactic hero in the end. In ME2, he is forced to run errands for a splinter group, and has almost every former ally turn their backs on him. He is going against everything that was "Paragon" in ME1 in order to do what's right, working against his past definitions of "good". So I'd say it makes sense that his "Paragon" demeanor has shifted currents.

[Guns]

I would like them to make decisions more realistic and grey - like in Dragon Age - than black and white.

Modifié par Guns, 20 juin 2011 - 11:10 .

[Hathur]

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

I thought the reward for being Renegade was that you get to be a douchebag that has a lot of funny lines / actions?

Paragon is decisively lacking in comedic moments compared to renegade... so there's your reward.. comedy.

[Lumikki]

Eh? First time I hear someone saying they can't play "good" enough. *grins*

Yeah, I had no problems between ME1 and ME2 with my character. I made same kind of choises and ended to be allmost fully paragon in both. I did make also neutral choises in both games, but most of my choises seem to go more direction of paragon. I also did choose few renegade choises too.

[LGTX]

King Zeel wrote...

If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

Real choices don't have equal outcomes. Your point backfires.

[nhsk]

The problem with the renegade / paragon is the meter that tells us that we are good or evil.

Gameplay wise, well, the choices are perhaps not that obvious in the end, who is to say that the Reapers are now not actually already souring the songs of their mothers yet again?

But "big choices" doesn't usually affect the gameplay in BW games, they affect the epiloque and reading on how the galaxy fares out from the decisions you made.

In Dragonage Origins (not the ****ty sequel) we had no "good - evil" meter, some choices were obviously more evil than others but then again some of the good choices bit you very hard in the ass when you read the epilogue thinking you had done everything right.

Like putting the "good guy" on the throne in the Orzammar, convincing the dwarves to allow that brother to preach about the maker and having that dwarven girl study magic, they didn't exactly give the grandest results for the dwarves.

Anyway, even though its a "paragon" choice BW can very well take that and reverse engineer it to give you a very bad result.

Like reprogramming the Geth... What happens if you can't stop the quarians from going to war with them, especially since they have no idea if you kept the data from Talis fathers research from being revealed. (the paragon'ish choice even though you could renegade that as well)

But in the end, don't expect your choices to matter before the epiloque, as having big choices affect the gameplay in the way people expect, would effectively require 2 separate games to be developed (and that is only if you did "pure paragon" and "pure renegade"), the choices in ME is nothing but problems with with 2 or perhaps 3 solutions giving a slightly different epilogue text.

[King Zeel]

Hathur wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

I thought the reward for being Renegade was that you get to be a douchebag that has a lot of funny lines / actions?

Paragon is decisively lacking in comedic moments compared to renegade... so there's your reward.. comedy.

That's not enough. I don't want to have a bad ending, where like Ashley is upset that I cheated on her, Wrex is still dead and the world is slowly exploding or something. Why can't we just have a badass spin to being a paragon?

[King Zeel]

LGTX wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

Real choices don't have equal outcomes. Your point backfires.

Oh yeah, and like all "real choices" theres always just a GOOD and a Evil. Your point backfires, this is a game, if they want to give me the illusion of choice, then atleast give me a pratical one.

[CannonO]

I think I would love a BioWare game with choices like ME's, but no meter. I won't have to feel bad for being tough on someone. No making me feel soft for giving a dose of medicine. Just let me handle the moment as I should

[D.Sharrah]

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

In the terms of pure gaming...renegade decisions typically do have rewards; more money, more expierence, etc.  They just tend to be of the immediate gratification kind...and to me that makes sense.  My typical renegade playthroughs I always approach it with the attitude of "get the job done now and to hell with the consequences" - which I think blends well with the concept of immediate reward, not necessarily long term reward.

Secondly, I feel like most people on the forum that bring this topic up...more want to see paragon choices punished rather than see long term rewards for renegade decisions.  And ME 2 proved that you can go wrong with paragon choices - the best example is during Samara's recruitment mission the eclipse sister that you can either gun down or let go, then later learn that she was the killer.  So, I would take this as a sign that they are moving towards the direction that the community is looking for - which is more morally gray choices with a mixed outcome.

[Saberchic]

I would say that both attitudes for the paragons and renegades have shifted. However, that could be because of the situation Shep is in. Shep is now linked to Cerberus, and the player now has a chance to be more pro-human than before. Certainly, most of my renegade Sheps aren't pro-human. They work very well with and get along with aliens just fine, but there were lots of renegade conversations where if I picked the renegade option, my Shep would be considered xenophobic.

[Saaziel]

I never did pay much attention to the "Bars".

I ended up my original ME1 run with a mostly Renegade Sheppard , though i did save the queen and the council. My ME2 run was more Paragon than Renegade. I don't see this as a problem unless you identify your character with Red/Blue prior to to making a decision or if you value the points gained over the game play. Both of which i find ludicrous.

Could it use some improvement? Of course , but people really go overboard with these bars let me tell you.

Heck , if i were a Reaper ,Indoctrination wouldn't be my weapon of choice . I'd hack all the Omnitool and add a "Purple Or Green" Reaper-bar-app . Then give out "points" to whom ever brings the most humans to the "Goo factories" . Then watch humanity tear it self apart ... Or waste their time arguing over which is better on the extra-net (by the way , Reapers favours Purples , its obviously the better bar), distracting them from taking counter measures to our invasion.

King Zeel wrote...

if they want to give me the illusion of choice, then atleast give me a pratical one.

How does this make any sense ? You do realize what Illusion of choice means, yes?

Modifié par Saaziel, 20 juin 2011 - 11:57 .

[DCopeland]

Quite frankly if you're going full one or the other than you're digging yourselves a bigger ditch.
It shouldn't be about playing either Paragon OR renegade, it should be about preparing yourself in the best way possible.

I can't remember how many times i've gone Paragon because it'll suit me in the long run.
Nor can i remember how many Renegade choices i've done that [i hope] will benefit me in the long run aswell.

Paragade master race.

[LGTX]

King Zeel, I HAD no point, I stated a fact. Please don't argue for argument's sake and understand what I meant. You want a practical illusion of choice which feels like an actual one? You already have it. Go back to ME 2 and *roleplay*, and stop being renegade on principle. It's not wrong to go paragon ONCE if you think that better suits future alliances or whatever it is that gets stalled by renegade choices. Et cetera. It will help diminish the surprise when cheated love interests behave like cheated love interests, and when killed squad members stay dead.

[King Zeel]

LGTX wrote...
Wah, wah. wah.


We paragons get everything we want and more,
why do these Renegades complain when their characters get shafted. Why
don't they just IGNORE the consquences, huh, huh? paragons blah, renegades blah.

I'm sorry, it seems only true renegades understand. If you disagree with my opinion there's no need to attack it. I didn't attack Paragons, so I expect the same respect.

[Repzik]

I kind of wish they'd just scrap the moral system, but I doubt they can/will do that for ME3.

I'd really like to see more hard choices, as in choices where neither decision is 'good', it just is. The Witcher had quite a few examples of this, and I'd like to see them in ME.

Renegades should get things done more 'efficiently', a la make more money/get objectives done easier, while paragons have to go through more trouble, get less monetary rewards/objectives, but have more allies/resources for some situations.

[onelifecrisis]

CannonLars wrote...

Skip to the last paragraph for a briefing on what I'd love to hear you all discuss about the morality. The body of this post is my experience, which while I enjoyed both games, I felt an imbalance in the morality. Tell me what you all thought in your playthroughs.

So this has been mentioned in articles and probably on these forums, but ME2 Paragons were more like ME1 neutrals. My ME1 Shephard was that best, last, hope for humanity that represented the shining force people prayed for in the galaxy. He sounded kind, even when he had to shut down his enemies and the foolish. He was so clearly being a good, incorruptible officer that was here to defend the galaxy.

ME2 arrives and paragon has slipped lower. I get that it is darker and I even planned on picking more of a mix between neutral and paragon with a rare Renegade choice in the mix too. I start to play and to my surprise, the Paragon options aren't setting me off on the good curve I hoped for. I wanted Shephard to be the good man he was in my ME1 playthorugh with some distress over the new situation, but he wasn't showing up. His positive responses were no longer full force in the Paragon direction. He lacked that convinced nature of a determined Paragon and instead was feeling out his situations more like a neutral character. He had several leanings toward a more approachable guy, but not a clear right hero. I was caught off guard by some situations where it felt like the game got rough without my decision really counting. It was like the game forced Shephard to be a darker guy, whether you shone light on his path or not.

It basically could be summed up as Paragons in ME2 become the human decency option that neutral already had in ME1. Renegades got the big stuff and interrupts while my goodness was small and felt so minimalized. I realize now that my post makes it sound huge, but really it was too big for me. I felt too bad for my ME1 Shepard.

IGN had a mention of this in their ME3 wishlist (which I mostly agree with, save a few exceptions). xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1138506p1.html

What is everyone's stance on the controllable morality across the series? Do you feel like it has been consistent. Are there adjustments you need for the system to improve? Is Paragon/Renegade too weak/strong feeling when you select those options? Unload.

I had the same feeling when I first started ME2. Perhaps the worst example is Harrot. I picked the Paragon "Charm" dialogue option, and Shepard promptly threatened to break Harrot's legs. I was more than a little shocked. I thought I must have accidentally slipped and clicked the wrong option, so I reloaded and did it again (no I'm not joking; I really had that much trouble believing what had just happened).

Then we went to get Jack and Shepard opened up every cell on a ship full of the worst kind of criminals. Not even an option. The game just railroads you straight down (what I can only see as) the Renegade path.

So did Bioware listen to the people who were upset about this and adjust accordingly? Nope (proof: Arrival).

I really doubt this will change in ME3. Shepard is now Renegade or Paragade; there's no Paragon option.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 21 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[CannonO]

onelifecrisis wrote...

CannonLars wrote...

Skip to the last paragraph for a briefing on what I'd love to hear you all discuss about the morality. The body of this post is my experience, which while I enjoyed both games, I felt an imbalance in the morality. Tell me what you all thought in your playthroughs.


What is everyone's stance on the controllable morality across the series? Do you feel like it has been consistent. Are there adjustments you need for the system to improve? Is Paragon/Renegade too weak/strong feeling when you select those options? Unload.

I had the same feeling when I first started ME2. Perhaps the worst example is Harrot. I picked the Paragon "Charm" dialogue option, and Shepard promptly threatened to break Harrot's legs. I was more than a little shocked. I thought I must have accidentally slipped and clicked the wrong option, so I reloaded and did it again (no I'm not joking; I really had that much trouble believing what had just happened).

Then we went to get Jack and Shepard opened up every cell on a ship full of the worst kind of criminals. Not even an option. The game just railroads you straight down (what I can only see as) the Renegade path.

So did Bioware listen to the people who were upset about this and adjust accordingly? Nope (proof: Arrival).

I really doubt this will change in ME3. Shepard is now Renegade or Paragade; there's no Paragon option.

Exactly what I am referring to. It all had a rough twist that made Shepard no longer fit the role I had laid out.

[darklordpocky-san]

I think people have this backwards. . .

usually playing by the rules is the harder of both roads. Renegade decisions tend to be the quick way out, usually killing off some enemies before the fight, easing the difficulty, or intimidating them off. Paragons usually have to fight their battles (unless they can convince the enemy otherwise).

In the long run, I think both sides share their own negatives. Paragon is the kind of truce-making soldier, trying to right wrongs and do the right thing, Renegade is the one trying to get the job done, and solve the immediate threats, with little to no concern for others of the what the repercussions of their actions can be.

When you ask for rewards for your renegade playthroughs, you are getting them. . . most of the rewards are immediate. You shoot before asking, you get the satisfaction of killing someone smaller than you, and you accumulate power through shadier means (Overlord anyone?). Those are your rewards.

In reality, no one can be completely "Paragon", and a whole lot of people can be near completely "Renegade".
A Paragon's rewards will come later, and aren't even their own, usually it's just the sanctification of knowing that you helped make something a little less war-prone, sometimes it's not punching the person who jumps you out of fear.

[CannonO]

Would the elimination of these morality systems with set right/wrong options be best across the board, or does it work well in some cases?

[onelifecrisis]

CannonLars wrote...

Would the elimination of these morality systems with set right/wrong options be best across the board, or does it work well in some cases?

Personally I'm strongly in favour of the complete elimination of the morality system. We should have moral choices (with consequences and divergence) but no silly points system attached. The Paragon/Renegade system limits what the writers can do with the story and limits what the player can do with their character.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 21 juin 2011 - 01:06 .

[nitrog100]

I prefer Paragon. Renegade was a lot easier in ME2. Pretty much every Renegade interrupt took out half of the enemies you needed to fight. Some of them were pretty cool though like headbutting Gatatog Uvenk, blowing up the pipeline under the Weyrloc speaker, and pretty much any of the "I'm done listening to this ****hole, blow them up" interrupts.