175 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

I'd like consequences & rewards for both sides (Renegade & Paragon) and cameos for the Renegade instead of the nothing we've had in ME2. Right now, it seems more like we're choosing between "Good ending" and "Bad ending".

[Tachai03]

I prefer being a Paragade.

Get all the rewards of being a Paragon, and all the explosions, interrupts and killing of being a Renegade.

Neutrality FTW.

[Aimi]

ITT: BSN members complain about Paragon/Renegade system for the bazillionth time

[CannonO]

daqs wrote...

ITT: BSN members complain about Paragon/Renegade system for the bazillionth time

You could share an opinion, your experience, or your suggestions instead. That would be cool, as opposed to /\\

[Teknor]

CannonLars wrote...

daqs wrote...

ITT: BSN members complain about Paragon/Renegade system for the bazillionth time

You could share an opinion, your experience, or your suggestions instead. That would be cool, as opposed to /

He just did, he said he's sick of this discussion.

[CannonO]

Teknor wrote...

CannonLars wrote...

daqs wrote...

ITT: BSN members complain about Paragon/Renegade system for the bazillionth time

You could share an opinion, your experience, or your suggestions instead. That would be cool, as opposed to /

He just did, he said he's sick of this discussion.

He shared an opinion about a different topic and other people's complaints. He said nothing to contribute to the purpose of the topic.

[LGTX]

And you guys are doing much better? When someone breaks the rules, either report them, or ignore.

As for the topic at hand, I stand by my opinion. The difference between the ME1 paragon and the ME2 one was story-consistent, shifting the pointing hand of the morality compass from the image of shiny hero and adjusting it to Shepard's hopeless quest to stop the collectors. He simply did not have a "book" to uphold to in ME2, except for the essential "do what's right". 

King Zeel wrote...

I'm sorry, it seems only true renegades understand. If you disagree with my opinion there's no need to attack it. I didn't attack Paragons, so I expect the same respect.

Ah, I get it now. 7/10.
 

[Kadzin]

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED!

To be honest you either play a Hero (paragon) or an **** (Renegade)
Heroes get rewarded, ****s get screwed over. That is solely my oppinion however.
I think ME2 catered to Renegades too much, with like a whole 2 minutes sitting through a renegade interrupt on Mordin's loyalty mission.

[Skirata129]

why does everyone act like renegades are supposed to be aholes in every situation? I fail to see how a "get the job done at all costs" mentality means I want to take bribes, insult my crewmembers and hate on aliens. I think the bioware devs themselves are confused as to what renegade means and mess up the choices a lot.

for example, Mordin and legion's loyalty missions. How is keeping the research as a bargaining chip or rewriting geth to get more allies paragon instead of renegade? it makes no sense. they are neither. one is just a bigger risk taker mentality than the other.

[Kadzin]

Skirata129 wrote...

why does everyone act like renegades are supposed to be aholes in every situation? I fail to see how a "get the job done at all costs" mentality means I want to take bribes, insult my crewmembers and hate on aliens. I think the bioware devs themselves are confused as to what renegade means and mess up the choices a lot.

for example, Mordin and legion's loyalty missions. How is keeping the research as a bargaining chip or rewriting geth to get more allies paragon instead of renegade? it makes no sense. they are neither. one is just a bigger risk taker mentality than the other.

Bioware may state otherwise but I am pretty sure they always assumed that paragon was good choices and Renegade were bad choices.

Lets see the description of Renegade

1. One who rejects a religion, cause, allegiance, or group for another; a deserter.2. An outlaw; a rebel.
There are tonns of interpretations. I personally think that if you want to play the "get the job done" guy, that would be a Paragade, who uses both paragon and renegade choices, but if you go full renegade, you're a just a-hole to everyone for the sake of being an a-hole to everyone.

[CannonO]

I think Kadzin is right. If you want to play good cop, you pick Paragon, bad cop is Renegade. It is how it seems to be interpreted in almost all cases. It also seems to be how it was intended.

[Ieldra]

Kadzin wrote...
I personally think that if you want to play the "get the job done" guy, that would be a Paragade, who uses both paragon and renegade choices.

I agree with this - theoretically it should work that way. The "get the job done" attitude would put practicality before ideology and result in a mix of Paragon and Renegade decisions. The problem is that so far the Paragon decisions have almost *always* resulted in the better outcome, making Paragon the "I win" button as well as the "I can feel good" button, while Renegades got a few admittedly nice interrupts and a negligible amount of money - totally inconsequential rewards. What we need is one or two big storyline decisions where the Renegade decision pays off in a big way and the Paragon decision backfires badly. It's OK if we need to wait for the epilogue for it to materialize. We need decisions like choosing Bhelen in DAO. Obviously a choice of dubious morality, but in the end without any doubt the better one for the big picture.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juin 2011 - 01:54 .

[Kadzin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Kadzin wrote...
I personally think that if you want to play the "get the job done" guy, that would be a Paragade, who uses both paragon and renegade choices.

I agree with this - theoretically it should work that way. The "get the job done" attitude would put practicality before ideology and result in a mix of Paragon and Renegade decisions. The problem is that so far the Paragon decisions have almost *always* resulted in the better outcome, making Paragon the "I win" button as well as the "I can feel good" button, while Renegades got a few admittedly nice interrupts and a negligible amount of money - totally inconsequential rewards. What we need is one or two big storyline decisions where the Renegade decision pays off in a big way and the Paragon decision backfires badly. It's OK if we need to wait for the epilogue for it to materialize. We need decisions like choosing Bhelen in DAO. Obviously a choice of dubious morality, but in the end without any doubt the better one for the big picture.

There wasn't a BIG backfire on Paragon in ME2 but there was a small one in Samara Dosier mission. If you let the young asari merc go, you later find out that she in fact was the killer.
Personally I wouldn't mind too much about a big paragon decision backfiring on me, as long as I don't get any Renegade for it or lose squadmates/their loyalty over it. Basicly as long as the problem is fixable.
As far as Renegade paying off? Well that depends in which way. If it's money? Sure if it affects game mechanics, like helping you fight a boss or something, sure, but if it affects the story line in some way, I am not sure, I guess it all depends on how it is executed.

[Skirata129]

I can only think of one time that a renegade decision pays off and that's only if you don't have full paragon to talk yourself out of it. Zaeed's loyalty mission. if you save the workers at the facility you let zaeed's target get away and lose his loyalty, but if you're full paragon you can talk yourself out of it, so it's a moot point.

[CannonO]

Skirata129 wrote...

I can only think of one time that a renegade decision pays off and that's only if you don't have full paragon to talk yourself out of it. Zaeed's loyalty mission. if you save the workers at the facility you let zaeed's target get away and lose his loyalty, but if you're full paragon you can talk yourself out of it, so it's a moot point.

You get his loyalty still don't you? I played that Paragon and I am pretty sure he was loyal after some discussion on that mission.

[Medhia Nox]

I'd get rid of Paragon/Renegade completely and have every action judged silently in game. Bioware develops a scenario and gives you options - then, designs outcomes to those options based on their view of the actions.

I'd also either 1) Get rid of special dialogue. 2) Make a separate series of leveling points to put into social skills so people don't cry about exchanging roleplaying skills with pew pew skills.

====

But if we were to keep them...

And if Renegades really do suffer in game (I've no interest in playing a douchebag) - then they designed it wrong. I imagine Paragon players would be more comfortable with hard work and self-sacrifice. So Paragons should have a harder time in the game - being Renegade should always be easier, because taking those roots in real life are always easier in the short term.

====

And people 'claim' they don't want black and white - but that's all people really are. It's either "my perspective" or "your perspective" - and while you might tolerant a perspective you disagree with, you certainly still think it is wrong.

These positive/negative moral meters will likely always exist in RP games in some form (in DA it's judged on a individual NPC basis - which might be better, but it's still the same "like" "dislike" meter)

Unless we're talking about completely apathetic, indecisive people - but, I'd hardly consider them the type of person to ever be a hero.

[Goneaviking]

It's a system that could do with some more thinking, but I think that the coloured bar system is an improvement over the skill points investment system. In theory consistent actions would strengthen certain tendencies in a character as it does in reality, hence if you've been playing the negotiator all game you should get some benefit to negotiating problems; but if you've been playing an "in your face" character all game then that should be reflected as well.

The benefit to playing solidly one way is reflected in being able to either talk down rival team members, or cower them with aggression. Playing a wishy washy sometimes tough guy means that you can't muster the conviction to convince your subordinates to put aside their grievances at a critical juncture. I like that system.

I also agree with the idea that the shifting ethics of Shepherd makes sense in context of the story. In the ME1 he was a public figure in the military, and the first human in an elite intergalactic paramilitary force. His behaviour would have ramifications for how the Alliance, and humanity, would be perceived by aliens. So it makes sense that he'd be a much nicer and more pleasant person.

In ME2 he's been conscripted into a known terrorist organisation, he's believed to be dead by virtually everyone and he's forced by circumstances to associate with the kind of rabble he would have shot in the face in the previous game. It makes sense for him to behave differently.

The big problem, from my perspective, is that we can see the coloured bar and identify the options that they open up. So there's a temptation to play the colour scheme instead of playing an interesting character.

[Dean_the_Young]

LGTX wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

Real choices don't have equal outcomes. Your point backfires.

Real choices also have sensible outcomes. Like, say, career criminals not going to a life of social service after a pep talk. And unwaranted faith and optimism coming to bite you in the ass.

[LGTX]

Real choices have sensible outcomes about as often as they do NOT. And why did this 'choices should be like in real life' discussion start up anyway? Anything even remotely resembling a real-life conversation dynamic will ruin the immersion in any game, except maybe something like Heavy Rain.

[CaptainZaysh]

Uh...dude, you brought it up.

[quote]LGTX wrote...

Real choices don't have equal outcomes. Your point backfires.

[In Exile]

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED!

Why should being violent and confrontational have social rewards? Serious question, btw. And technically, renegade interrupts are rewards for renegades.

[nhsk]

It's mentioned in the news for dead council renegades that the Batarians and Turians afaik, are expanding their fleets, guess that is a reward?

Modifié par nhsk, 21 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[CannonO]

In Exile wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED!

Why should being violent and confrontational have social rewards? Serious question, btw. And technically, renegade interrupts are rewards for renegades.

Exactly. The renegades have a ton of badass interrupts. Paragon is a calm and decency based route.

[CaptainZaysh]

In Exile wrote...

Why should being violent and confrontational have social rewards? Serious question, btw.

Um, because it's a war?

[D.Sharrah]

D.Sharrah wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

Renegade needs to start getting rewards. I think I speak for all renegades when I say that we are tired of Renegades being the "bad decision". Paragons are basically the Novice playthrough, you can't go wrong with Paragon. I'm sick of it. If you're going to give us a morality choice make it feel like a choice and less like DO THIS IF U WANT TO BE PUNISHED.

In the terms of pure gaming...renegade decisions typically do have rewards; more money, more expierence, etc.  They just tend to be of the immediate gratification kind...and to me that makes sense.  My typical renegade playthroughs I always approach it with the attitude of "get the job done now and to hell with the consequences" - which I think blends well with the concept of immediate reward, not necessarily long term reward.

Secondly, I feel like most people on the forum that bring this topic up...more want to see paragon choices punished rather than see long term rewards for renegade decisions.  And ME 2 proved that you can go wrong with paragon choices - the best example is during Samara's recruitment mission the eclipse sister that you can either gun down or let go, then later learn that she was the killer.  So, I would take this as a sign that they are moving towards the direction that the community is looking for - which is more morally gray choices with a mixed outcome.

I stand by what I said in this post...it's not a matter of haves vs. have nots, its a matter of short term (or immediate) rewards vs. long term rewards...as intelligent as most of the community seems to be, it still surprises me that there is as much debate about this as there is...