175 réponses à ce sujet

[Undertone]

RolandX9 wrote...

 and the Renegades can have all the diabolic success they want.

Again...renegade is not evil.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Luckily you have Dean here to explain and argue reasonably. I really don't have such temper.

I have it on Paragon Authority that I am, in fact, highly unreasonable. And a bit of an ass at times.

That's really funny actually. Considering you are one of the most reasonable people on this forum. I simply don't have the temper to fight retardness, self-righousness or ignorance. I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

Not because I hate paragon on principle but because they argue their logic in such a way it makes me want to restort to physical violence or because some (not all) paragon decisions make no sense or the results from such choices seems magical.

[Skirata129]

^ agreed. I honestly think the devs have multiple people writing the lines and designing the choices, without making sure the paragon and renegade options show consistency. they probably have one person that thinks renegade is evil, one who thinks renegades should be pricks to everyone and another who believes renegades get the job done no matter the cost.

[Vilio1]

Undertone wrote...

I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

That's one of the dumbest things I have read on these boards.

[Markinator_123]

jbblue05 wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Douchebaggery is its own reward. :innocent:

Paragons are sefl-tighteous douchebags

It's funny how some paragons can act like douchebags on these forums. Seriously, some of you paragon players should get your head out of your behinds and stop acting like idiots by saying things like "playing renegade is its own reward (or something along those lines)". Seriously? Are some of you that stupid?

Modifié par Markinator_123, 21 juin 2011 - 07:55 .

[Sebby]

Skirata129 wrote...

^ agreed. I honestly think the devs have multiple people writing the lines and designing the choices, without making sure the paragon and renegade options show consistency. they probably have one person that thinks renegade is evil, one who thinks renegades should be pricks to everyone and another who believes renegades get the job done no matter the cost.

The two paths sure as hell aren't consistant. Paragon can be about being compassioante one moment and then about threatening to break an Elcor merchant's legs the next,likewise Renegade can be about gunning down criminals one moment and then making shady deals with them the next.

[Undertone]

Skirata129 wrote...

^ agreed. I honestly think the devs have multiple people writing the lines and designing the choices, without making sure the paragon and renegade options show consistency. they probably have one person that thinks renegade is evil, one who thinks renegades should be pricks to everyone and another who believes renegades get the job done no matter the cost.

Well you have to understand that on this forums being renegade means you are either absolute **** or you are pro-human, pro-Cerberus and anti-alien. You should get all the bad results because that's what you deserve. You should also not get extra content because you kill people (that's usually said with the famous line "Wow I'm so smart - dead people can't come for cameos".


/sarcasm.

Modifié par Undertone, 21 juin 2011 - 07:56 .

[Undertone]

Vilio1 wrote...

Undertone wrote...

I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

That's one of the dumbest things I have read on these boards.

Correct me if I'm wrong then. Sorry but most of your like-minded "bretheren" show exactly that mentality. Just look at some of the replies in this thread.

Modifié par Undertone, 21 juin 2011 - 07:57 .

[Sebby]

Markinator_123 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Douchebaggery is its own reward. :innocent:

Paragons are sefl-tighteous douchebags

It's funny how some paragons can act like douchebags on these forums. Seriously, some of you paragon players should get your head out of behinds and stop acting like idiots by saying things like "playing renegade is its own reward (or something along those lines)". Seriously? Are some of you that stupid?

I tend to ignore the Paragon blowhards that like to troll Renegade/gon players and Cerberus fans.

[Smeelia]

Skirata129 wrote...

^ agreed. I honestly think the devs have multiple people writing the lines and designing the choices, without making sure the paragon and renegade options show consistency.

I agree with this, consistency is definately one of the major issues (infact I think that was pretty much the original point of the thread, though mostly from a Paragon point of view).

I quite like some of the Paragon options in ME2 and prefer Shepard being more willing to call out someone on their behaviour (such as with the credit chit incident on the Citadel).  That said, there are definately times when potential options just don't seem to make sense and don't seem consistent with the character.

Saaziel wrote...

Heck , if i were a Reaper ,Indoctrination wouldn't be my weapon of choice . I'd hack all the Omnitool and add a "Purple Or Green" Reaper-bar-app . Then give out "points" to whom ever brings the most humans to the "Goo factories" . Then watch humanity tear it self apart ... Or waste their time arguing over which is better on the extra-net (by the way , Reapers favours Purples , its obviously the better bar), distracting them from taking counter measures to our invasion.

"What's the reason for the conflict?"
"Green."
"Purple!"

I tend to agree that the bars aren't really necessary.  They sort of enforced them in ME2 by making the only way to use persuasion rely on staying heavily with one alignment and that just doesn't feel right (even if it's not impossible to deal with).

Undertone wrote...

Plus I'm sorry I find it ridicilous how hardcore criminals are simly talk-jutsu-ed by Shepard into becoming proper citizens.

I don't think that actually happens that often, there's Helena Blake but she wasn't a "hardcore" criminal (she was only into crimes she saw as "harmless" in the first place and you only get her mission because she doesn't like the slavery and drug dealing that has infested her organisation).  Helena is also able to be talked down by both Paragon and Renegade.

More often, they're talked into not dying and that doesn't seem as unreasonable.  Maybe I'm just forgetting lots of examples, I haven't done a Paragon playthrough for a while.

[The Baconer]

Undertone wrote...

I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

It's funny how some paragons can act
like douchebags on these forums. Seriously, some of you paragon players
should get your head out of your behinds and stop acting like idiots by
saying things like "playing renegade is its own reward (or something
along those lines)". Seriously? Are some of you that stupid?

I tend to ignore the Paragon blowhards that like to troll Renegade/gon players and Cerberus fans.

Honestly. This whole forum is just pathetic.

Modifié par The Baconer, 21 juin 2011 - 08:19 .

[Ieldra]

CannonLars wrote...
Renegade always seemed, as others have said, like a path to short term reward. It gives a small satisfaction when you defeat someone before you even fight, or confiscate something for yourself, but in the end, you get a hero's story with Paragon and it feels like an add up to goodness.

Actually it is the reverse in many situations. For instance: you sacrifice hostages for the long-term goal of preventing a terrorist's future activities (ME1 Balak). You kill the Rachi queen to prevent her from becoming a danger down the road.

As for "playing bad boy" - what those who complain about "Renegades wanting to get a hero's rewards for playing bad boy" don't get is that Renegades don't do these things just for no reason than to be bad. They do them because they think they're necessary for getting the best results. Now they may be sometimes wrong, but they shouldn't be always wrong in that.

To me, the main difference was always this:

(1) Paragons tend to value principles over results
(2) Renegades tend to value results over principles.

Which again, is not an absolute. Faced with the near-certainty of extinction, any Paragon who's not a complete idiot would use a Renegade option instead of running the risk of extinction. Thus: Arrival. And in a situation where there's nothing to be gained by killing someone or being cruel and everything to be gained by being nice, any Renegade who's not a complete idiot would choose the Paragon option. There are a few situations in ME2 where Renegades can be idiots, but that's not mainly what being Renegade is about.

What Paragon players often don't get: In the real world, anyone with any kind of real power will not get away without making the occasional Renegade-like decision, will not get away with never having to sacrifice a principle for a result, either to stay in power or to get *anything* done that's worth doing in the first place. Again: thus: Arrival. It removes the delusion that you can always get things done without having to make a really hard decision. Only it's not the player's decision because Bioware didn't want to present those Paragons who'd choose to ignore all this with a game over screen for making an idiotic choice.

In the real world, the Renegade-like philosophy is a valid one for the *sole* reason that it gets results, and usually gets them faster and more decisively than the Paragon-like. The only question is whether the result is worth the bad side effects. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it is. Sometimes people think it is but it isn't, sometimes people think it isn't but it would be. That's what I'd like the games to reflect.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juin 2011 - 08:22 .

[DaringMoosejaw]

The Baconer wrote...

Undertone wrote...

I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

It's funny how some paragons can act
like douchebags on these forums. Seriously, some of you paragon players
should get your head out of your behinds and stop acting like idiots by
saying things like "playing renegade is its own reward (or something
along those lines)". Seriously? Are some of you that stupid?

I tend to ignore the Paragon blowhards that like to troll Renegade/gon players and Cerberus fans.

Honestly. This whole forum is just pathetic.

Tribalism. We have created an environment where there are two sides - 'Paragon' and 'Renegade'. People have identified with those sides and when someone identifies with a side, that means they need to reinforce their choice as the superior one and trash the other side as the inferior one. Even though, logically, these sides don't matter - it's a single-player game and you can play however you'd like - but as we need to reinforce our 'side' as the right one, we must glorify the one we picked and ensure anyone that picks other sides is mocked, ridiculed and sabotaged.

[Skirata129]

lol, we have our Mass Effect MMO right here. instead of horde and alliance, we have paragon and rengade! Warsong gulch anyone? (I don't play WoW anymore by the way)

[JamieCOTC]

I recall in ME1 when my renegade Shep yelled at Ashely for clumsily getting in the pull of the beacon, she took a shot at him later on. I thought that was great. There was a push and pull of the characters going on. If that's getting punished, then ...

Renegade: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Markinator_123]

The Baconer wrote...

Undertone wrote...

I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

It's funny how some paragons can act
like douchebags on these forums. Seriously, some of you paragon players
should get your head out of your behinds and stop acting like idiots by
saying things like "playing renegade is its own reward (or something
along those lines)". Seriously? Are some of you that stupid?

I tend to ignore the Paragon blowhards that like to troll Renegade/gon players and Cerberus fans.

Honestly. This whole forum is just pathetic.

No offense but please get off your high horse. My response was mainly a retort to an idiotic post who tends to not understand why some people make some of the choices that they do.

[Undertone]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thank you for the well-thought out answer.

[Hathur]

Wait.. wait wait... lemme get this straight... some of you are actually offended about my earlier comment? (Douchebaggery being its own reward).

While it was part tongue-in-cheek it was also part genuine. Are you folks telling me you didn't choose to play as a renegade shep for the simple fact that it's fun / amusing to be the big tough, mean, wise-cracking space cowboy? I thought that was the whole appeal of playing renegade (at least it is  for me) ... to be the big jerk who does things her own way however, whenever she wants with nary a care for what others think of it.

That kind of person is pretty douchey to me (not the kind of person you would like in real life)... hence why I referred to it as douchebaggery.... but that by no means was me saying I don't like renegade playthroughs... I thoroughly enjoy them... I may prefer paragon playthroughs, but renegade is certainly appealing for the comedic, tough and  "Go to hell, I'll send you there myself!" moments.
BSN people can be so uptight..... one might say.......................... douchey, even. 

Modifié par Hathur, 21 juin 2011 - 08:45 .

[Smeelia]

Ieldra2 wrote...

In the real world, the Renegade-like philosophy is a valid one for the *sole* reason that it gets results, and usually gets them faster and more decisively than the Paragon-like. The only question is whether the result is worth the bad side effects. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it is. Sometimes people think it is but it isn't, sometimes people think it isn't but it would be. That's what I'd like the games to reflect.

The thing with philosophy is that it doesn't always give us certain answers.  A Renegade-like philosophy is no more valid than a Paragon-like philosophy in a factual sense, it's just a matter of which one you identify with more.

As for results, they're not always what you expect even if you think you've done all the planning.  Real-life isn't reliable either way, sometimes you get way luckier than most people would expect and other times you're incredibly unlucky going against apparent probability.

ME is a story, it's picking a direction and none of the directions are purely "right".

[Skirata129]

this could be fixed easily if they stopped applying paragon/renegade to conversation and applied it only to decisions.

[Ieldra]

Hathur wrote...
Are you folks telling me you didn't choose to play as a renegade shep for the simple fact that it's fun / amusing to be the big tough, mean, wise-cracking space cowboy? I thought that was the whole appeal of playing renegade (at least it is  for me) ... to be the big jerk who does things her own way however, whenever she wants with nary a care for what others think of it.

Exactly, that's what I'm telling you. I may have a few minor Renegade decisions for that reason, but whenever I took a Renegade option in one of the big decisions, it was because I thought it would have the best outcome, or at least my Shepard thought that, sometimes mistakenly. In fact, anything else but "concentrate on the Sovereign" in ME1 struck me as utterly idiotic - you do not risk galaxy-wide extinction for 10000 people and three importannt politicians. That the Paragon choice worked out is such a ridiculous piece of luck that it's almost unbelievable.

My two Renegades also aren't complete Renegades. They think in results. If being nice can be recognized in advance as being the best option, they will be nice. They also weren't jerks to the Council in ME1. Thats just idiotic. You don't ****** off your superiors just for the lulz. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juin 2011 - 09:03 .

[Vilio1]

Undertone wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

Undertone wrote...

I have this thesis that about 90% of the paragons on this forum (save exceptions of course, they know who they are) are some naive spoiled kids who have never known any hardship in their entire life.

That's one of the dumbest things I have read on these boards.

Correct me if I'm wrong then. Sorry but most of your like-minded "bretheren" show exactly that mentality. Just look at some of the replies in this thread.

Because only an idiot would draw such conclusions based on forum posts.

Some of the renegade stuff is really disturbing, that doesn't mean 90% of the renegade players are sociopathic racists.

[Legbiter]

Executive summary?

[Dean_the_Young]

Legbiter wrote...

Executive summary?

Rapidly turning into flame war.

[Ieldra]

Smeelia wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

In the real world, the Renegade-like philosophy is a valid one for the *sole* reason that it gets results, and usually gets them faster and more decisively than the Paragon-like. The only question is whether the result is worth the bad side effects. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it is. Sometimes people think it is but it isn't, sometimes people think it isn't but it would be. That's what I'd like the games to reflect.

The thing with philosophy is that it doesn't always give us certain answers.  A Renegade-like philosophy is no more valid than a Paragon-like philosophy in a factual sense, it's just a matter of which one you identify with more.

As for results, they're not always what you expect even if you think you've done all the planning.  Real-life isn't reliable either way, sometimes you get way luckier than most people would expect and other times you're incredibly unlucky going against apparent probability.

ME is a story, it's picking a direction and none of the directions are purely "right".

Didn't I say exactly that? Sometimes your philosophy - be it Paragon-like or Renegade-like - works out, sometimes it doesn't. But the Renegade-like philosophy's raison d'etre is results, ONLY results. That's always what the Renegade will judge his decisions by. It if gets results, then it is valid. If it never got results, with all the bad side effects it usually has, nobody but a jerk would ever want to make such decisions.

Thus, if Renegade is to be perceived as a valid philosophy in the ME games, it absolutely MUST sometimes get the best results in a big decision. The same is not true of the Paragon, because the Paragon-like philosophy is not mainly about results but about adhering to principles. The only advantage a Paragon can always expect to have over the Renegade is a good reputation. Sometimes that advantage is decisive, sometimes it just isn't worth sacrificing results for. That's what I'd like the games to reflect.     

[The Baconer]

Markinator_123 wrote...
No offense but please get off your high horse. My response was mainly a retort to an idiotic post who tends to not understand why some people make some of the choices that they do.

What high horse? For not participating in this ridiculous schism caused by something as ridiculous as morality choices in a video game? I'm not pinning this only on the Renegade side but seriously, this is just stupid.