261 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
This is ridiculous. All you have to do is say no to someone who hits on you if you're not interested in him/her. For the love of...

See, this has abosolutely nothing to do with the problem. 0% nothing, nada, zilch.

The problem is going "wait a minute, wtf is Kaiden trying to make out with Shep? Kaiden was totally after female Shep in ME1!

Suddenly the consistency is gone. Because it draws my attention right to the change and screams "HEY LOOK WE CHANGED SOMETHING." And that is absolutely freaking horrifying.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 juin 2011 - 06:34 .

[shepskisaac]

King Zeel wrote...
Can't you guys just be satisfied with the plethora of fanfics. some of them are good (I think?)

Can't you guys just get satisfied with plethora of fan art so we can remove these Asari strippers form rpg shooter?

the_one_54321 wrote...
The problem is going "wait a minute, wtf is Kaiden trying to make out with Shep? Kaiden was totally after female Shep in ME1!

Kaidan won't try to make out with Shepard because he thinks Shepard's straight, it's part of the story already so you will have to first tell him "I'm gay! :D" in order to make him even consider trying to kiss your ManShep.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 juin 2011 - 06:35 .

[elearon1]

King Zeel wrote...

Sure, that logic is fine. Hell, use it-oh wait, her sexuality is broadcasted in me2 for all to see. Shame about that, huh? 

Actually, a lot of people have read Tali's behavior with Femshep to suggest she is interested but is uncertain how to approach it. (considering she was originally written as a S/S option in ME2, then that was taken out, but the dialog is the same up until that point)  

Once you are willing to have sex with an individual from an alien species, I suspect that creature's sex becomes less of an obstacle: considering the very likely physical differences in genitalia, actually defining male or female by human (or Quarian) standards may become very iffy.  It is much more likely that Gender, (which is not the same as sex) would be an obstacle - if and only if gender is an obstacle in that alien race's culture to begin with. 

Modifié par elearon1, 21 juin 2011 - 06:33 .

[KawaiiKatie]

King Zeel wrote...

Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a shtty ass show with awful characters, a silly ass plot and redundant action scenes

Wow, you're so on-message it actually hurts.

No, seriously, I love your commitment to this bit. Cracking up over here.

[Darthnemesis2]

King Zeel wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...
So? People assume someone is straight perfectly well.

Well that's the way the math works.

Except where it doesn't. Just because you assume someone to be straight doesn't make him (or her) so. I really don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp...

Honestly, these arguments are foolish and it just goes to show how far these fans will go to defend their silly s/s fantasies.
Yes, the math does work that way. I heard somewhere that only 10% of people are gay. I'm not much of a statistics guy but I'm willing to put a little faith in data collection here.
 
Third, it's not an assumption, OBVIOUSLY ashley is straight, she only screwed male shepard.

I paraphrase myself here: I am gay. Most people I know (those who I haven't explicitly told that I am gay) assume that I am straight because I don't talk about having sex with guys. They would be wrong. Some thing applies to the game.

So you've brought up an exception and think thats dissaproves anything? Couldn't i just say, well, I'm straight and people assume I'm straight so all is well? Doesn't that make your argument completely flawed?

not that you could even make the same comparison. If your friends saw you making out with guys would they still assume you were straight? Ashley sleeps with Shepard. It's not an assumption anymore when we have proof.

Correction: Ashley *might have* slept with Shep. Or She could have died on Virmire. Or Shep could have slept with no one. 

And no. The point I was making, which you seemed to have convieniently ignored, is that just because you assume someone is straight does not make them so. A bisexual person, or character, (let's use Ashely since you decided to bring her up) who is in a monogamous hetero relationship (with say, manshep) would appear to be straight to those observing their relationship. However, where she to break up with shep and start dating someone new (a woman in this case) has she betrayed her character? I would put forth that she hasn't. Again, just because you assume something does not make it true.

[the_one_54321]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Do I really have to trot out the example of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, again?

...I do? ....great.

If they actually went with a running plot where a character goes through this presumed process of changing sexuality, then your example would hold water. As the game stands, your example does not apply.

You want to actively prevent new plot developments? But I don't want to kill Saren in every Mass Effect game 

So happy it didn't repeat itself in ME2.

Not at all. If they actually created a story arc where one of the characters struggles with changing sexuality, I wouldn't complain in the slightest. I wouldn't play it out because I don't play gay/bi characters. But it would be really really neat for those that do.

[King Zeel]

IsaacShep wrote...

King Zeel wrote...
Can't you guys just be satisfied with the plethora of fanfics. some of them are good (I think?)

Can't you guys just get satisfied with plethora of fan art so we can remove these Asari strippers form rpg shooter?

I guess you're assuming that is something I want. I don't, but since you've brought it up, I'll argue it. The Asari strippers DONT CHANGE THE ENTIRE CANON OF THE TRILOGY. A small corner where some asari strips has the smallest impact possible. How dare you complain about that then want huge plot changes in the trilogy. Go away, you hypocrite.

[AtreiyaN7]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
This is ridiculous. All you have to do is say no to someone who hits on you if you're not interested in him/her. For the love of...

See, this has abosolutely nothing to do with the problem. 0% nothing, nada, zilch.

The problem is going "wait a minute, wtf is Kaiden trying to make out with Shep? Kaiden was totally after female Shep in ME1!

Suddenly the consistency is gone. And that is absolutely freaking horrifying.

And that is equally ridiculous. The "consistency" of what? The fact that you thought he wasn't bi/gay? Why is this even an issue? It shouldn't affect any hypothetical bromance if there is one between a male shepard and Kaidan. This kind of looks like a post by yet another person who is apparently so horrified by the existence of gay people that he feels a need to pretend they don't exist.

[AngelicMachinery]

King Zeel wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

King Zeel wrote...
Can't you guys just be satisfied with the plethora of fanfics. some of them are good (I think?)

Can't you guys just get satisfied with plethora of fan art so we can remove these Asari strippers form rpg shooter?

I guess you're assuming that is something I want. I don't, but since you've brought it up, I'll argue it. The Asari strippers DONT CHANGE THE ENTIRE CANON OF THE TRILOGY. A small corner where some asari strips has the smallest impact possible. How dare you complain about that then want huge plot changes in the trilogy. Go away, you hypocrite.

Assertion,  this one believes that both corners are particularly small.  If a meatbag is insulted about the fleshy fumblings of water based organisms they should not instigate courtship rituals.

[the_one_54321]

IsaacShep wrote...
Kaidan won't try to make out with Shepard because he thinks Shepard's straight, it's part of the story already so you will have to first tell him "I'm gay! :D" in order to make him even consider trying to kiss your ManShep.

Ok, let me rephrase that as "wtf is there a 'Heart' option in the dialog??"

Fiddles_stix wrote...
So you don't have a problem so long as s/s content is well written and developed appropriately?

Exactly.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 juin 2011 - 06:37 .

[ipgd]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The only evidence that exists is evidence that the change is not accurate. The only story elements that are actually presented by the writers suggest that the change is indeed a change. That qualifies a retcon.

No. It does not. Retcon is a specific descriptor of a specific kind of change which involves the retroactive alteration of an established fact. If there is no established fact to change, it is not a retcon. If it does not retroactively erase and replace that fact, it is not a retcon. A subversion of an assumption is a subversion of an assumption. A metagame driven character change is a metagame driven character change.

Even if you claim a lack of explicit strict evidence of a retcon, it can still be argued that to approach a story element in such a way opens all kinds of doors to potential plot problems and hamfisted story structures which will ultimately detract from the believability/consistency of the game.

Then argue that, if that is your prime concern. Leave the poor word retcon out of this. It is a useful word that refers to something that should have a word to describe it but when it is used carelessly and loaded with negative connotations it stops having any meaning at all.

[shepskisaac]

King Zeel wrote...
I guess you're assuming that is something I want. I don't, but since you've brought it up, I'll argue it. The Asari strippers DONT CHANGE THE ENTIRE CANON OF THE TRILOGY. A small corner where some asari strips has the smallest impact possible. How dare you complain about that then want huge plot changes in the trilogy. Go away, you hypocrite.

What. Huge. Changes. In. The. Trilogy? Having a character be available as a s/s option that was never ruled out in the first place is a huge change to the trilogy's plot???

[King Zeel]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...
So? People assume someone is straight perfectly well.

Well that's the way the math works.

Except where it doesn't. Just because you assume someone to be straight doesn't make him (or her) so. I really don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp...

Honestly, these arguments are foolish and it just goes to show how far these fans will go to defend their silly s/s fantasies.
Yes, the math does work that way. I heard somewhere that only 10% of people are gay. I'm not much of a statistics guy but I'm willing to put a little faith in data collection here.
 
Third, it's not an assumption, OBVIOUSLY ashley is straight, she only screwed male shepard.

I paraphrase myself here: I am gay. Most people I know (those who I haven't explicitly told that I am gay) assume that I am straight because I don't talk about having sex with guys. They would be wrong. Some thing applies to the game.

So you've brought up an exception and think thats dissaproves anything? Couldn't i just say, well, I'm straight and people assume I'm straight so all is well? Doesn't that make your argument completely flawed?

not that you could even make the same comparison. If your friends saw you making out with guys would they still assume you were straight? Ashley sleeps with Shepard. It's not an assumption anymore when we have proof.

Correction: Ashley *might have* slept with Shep. Or She could have died on Virmire. Or Shep could have slept with no one. 

And no. The point I was making, which you seemed to have convieniently ignored, is that just because you assume someone is straight does not make them so. A bisexual person, or character, (let's use Ashely since you decided to bring her up) who is in a monogamous hetero relationship (with say, manshep) would appear to be straight to those observing their relationship. However, where she to break up with shep and start dating someone new (a woman in this case) has she betrayed her character? I would put forth that she hasn't. Again, just because you assume something does not make it true.

What is going on here? Are my posts invisible? Seriously, did I not answer this argument already? no one cares about what "can" happen. What we care about is what "did" happen. Ashley shagged Shepard. Done. Your sexuality doesn't just switch on and off like a bloody light switch. 

GO AWAY FANGIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KawaiiKatie]

the_one_54321 wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Do I really have to trot out the example of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, again?

...I do? ....great.

If they actually went with a running plot where a character goes through this presumed process of changing sexuality, then your example would hold water. As the game stands, your example does not apply.

Have they yet? No, because they haven't needed to. But if Bioware wanted to "change" or "evolve" the sexuality of an existing character, would they reflect it in the plot? Absolutely!

But if they would they do so to your satisfaction is another matter entirely. I would be satisfied if Kaidan simply said, "I didn't know how much you meant to me until I lost you," but to others this would seem like a handwave. I would be satisfied if Kaidan went into great depth about how "confused" he was during his interactions with manShep, but others would see this as tripe. But I think that the Bioware writers have provided us with enough excellent material that, at this point, we owe them a little faith. If they say that Kaidan will be bisexual in ME3, I choose to believe that they will execute it with great care, and that there will be an entire plot-point about why Kaidan never showed an interest in manShep until ME3. Until this is proven otherwise, I will continue to fight the notion that bisexuality from any existing character has to mean that he or she will be "retconned."

[Warheadz]

King Zeel wrote...

What is going on here? Are my posts invisible? Seriously, did I not answer this argument already? no one cares about what "can" happen. What we care about is what "did" happen. Ashley shagged Shepard. Done. Your sexuality doesn't just switch on and off like a bloody light switch. 

GO AWAY FANGIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darthnemesis2]

King Zeel wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

Correction: Ashley *might have* slept with Shep. Or She could have died on Virmire. Or Shep could have slept with no one. 

And no. The point I was making, which you seemed to have convieniently ignored, is that just because you assume someone is straight does not make them so. A bisexual person, or character, (let's use Ashely since you decided to bring her up) who is in a monogamous hetero relationship (with say, manshep) would appear to be straight to those observing their relationship. However, where she to break up with shep and start dating someone new (a woman in this case) has she betrayed her character? I would put forth that she hasn't. Again, just because you assume something does not make it true.

What is going on here? Are my posts invisible? Seriously, did I not answer this argument already? no one cares about what "can" happen. What we care about is what "did" happen. Ashley shagged Shepard. Done. Your sexuality doesn't just switch on and off like a bloody light switch. 

GO AWAY FANGIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If now one cares what "can" happen, then why are we assuming Ash shagged anyone? Because I can tell you right now, even just from polls on this forum, not everyone shagged Ash. Not by a long shot. 

Oh... I'm sorry... didn't mean to burst your bubble there, bro. :innocent:

[King Zeel]

Ugh. Fanism strikes again. Where have you guys not touched? Honestly, does someone want to try and answer that?

I don't understand how being hurt or torn up means Kaidan jumps ship. The problem is that by changing Kaidan's character to flirt with male shepards you'll have to jump through hoops to do it. Make stretches where they don't belong and basically ruin a game to please fans.

What's new?

[elearon1]

At this point I think all evidence supports the assertion that King Zeel is a Troll. (you can check his other two troll threads for more evidence, if you like) I recommend you stop responding to him and let him die of starvation.

[shepskisaac]

the_one_54321 wrote...

IsaacShep...
Kaidan won't try to make out with Shepard because he thinks Shepard's straight, it's part of the story already so you will have to first tell him "I'm gay! :D" in order to make him even consider trying to kiss your ManShep.

Ok, let me rephrase that as "wtf is there a 'Heart' option in the dialog??"

That you don't have to click! Also, a presence of the heart option doesn't mean can bed the character or that he/she will replicate the feelings at all, as Samara tought us already (with the invincible heart option of course in her case )
And here's a suberb fitting comic to your post

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[the_one_54321]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
And that is equally ridiculous. The "consistency" of what? The fact that you thought he wasn't bi/gay? Why is this even an issue? It shouldn't affect any hypothetical bromance if there is one between a male shepard and Kaidan. This kind of looks like a post by yet another person who is apparently so horrified by the existence of gay people that he feels a need to pretend they don't exist.

You're projecting. I didn't "think" anything. The characters were presented and the existing story stands. It doesn't just go away when you want it to for the sake of convenience. Maybe it can for you, but as you can see your own side of the issue, try and see the other as well. I can claim to have done that much at least. I am completely on board with the idea of including gay/bi romances in these games. I think it's an awesome idea. Just the same way that I think these games should portray men as sex objects just as much as thry portray women as sex objects.

More fun for everyone. All options out there.

Just don't make the story unbelievable while you do it. Under no circumstances. Because in the end these games are 100% [cow patties]. Everything is fake. Everything is make believe. The only leg they have to stand on to make these things fun and acceptable and fantastic and believable is that they stick to some kind of consistency. They stick to their own story. They believe their own lie so thoroughly that you end up believing it too. Take that away, make the game sidestep its own lie and put its foot in its mouth and suddenly it really is just a bunch of fan-fic looking light novel trash.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 juin 2011 - 06:46 .