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Destructoid says Mass Effect 3 has the most potential of all AAA titles


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#51
Knal1991

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Gatt9 wrote...

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

www.destructoid.com/what-game-at-e3-2011-has-the-most-potential-at-retail--204189.phtml

"The industry analysts at EEDAR have looked into their crystal ball and
have determined that the game with the most promising retail title out
of E3 2011 is… Mass Effect 3. "

Coming from me too I believe ME3 is my most anticipated game as well.


They're right,  but that one was kinda simple to predict.  I mean seriously,  everything at E3 was a shooter,  or a sequel,  or both,  even if it didn't make sense (X-Com!),  it doesn't take alot of vision to see that it's going to be a brutal year.  All there is,  is ME3,  Diablo 3,  and maybe Starcraft's Xpack.  The dark horse of the year will probably be Dead State.

Skyrim's going to bomb as bad as DA2 did.  Bethseda doesn't know how to make games anymore,  and they're just removing more features making it a hollow shell compared to Daggerfall or Morrowind.  Seriously,  it's only a matter of time when your fanbase's mantra is "Wait till the modders get it,  they'll fix all the bugs and bad design!".  I'd put $20 on Bethseda bombing out this time around.


For someone who never played Elder scrolls becuase he didn't find it interesting, and is now eager to wait for skyrim.... I think it's going to do very well... if not gameplay wise then financially...

I like the freedom to customise your skills, which is actual freedom unlike that Dragon Age 2 which forced you to take stuff despite the new system... it seems neat, and not to mention a nordic warrior... that sold it to me aswell I admit...

#52
Warkupo

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I found the Elder Scrolls game boring *until* I modded it. By the time I was done, I didn't really feel right claiming that I enjoyed the game. The vanilla game honestly and truly sucked. The combat was boring, the story was medicore, and not a single character in the game was worth caring about. I'm willing to be SURPRISED by Skyrim, but I've yet to see anything that would make me deviate from knowledge already gathered from past experience with the franchise.

Mass Effect 3, on the other hand has been a rocky gameplay experience with a good story, to a fun gameplay experience with a great story. I have little concern that it will fail to impress me yet again.

#53
gunswordfist

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They have a PHD in stating the obvious.

But seriously, what did you expect. Mass Effect 3 could be unexplainably great based off of what has been set up

#54
Gatt9

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Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Skyrim's going to bomb as bad as DA2 did.  Bethseda doesn't know how to make games anymore,  and they're just removing more features making it a hollow shell compared to Daggerfall or Morrowind.  Seriously,  it's only a matter of time when your fanbase's mantra is "Wait till the modders get it,  they'll fix all the bugs and bad design!".  I'd put $20 on Bethseda bombing out this time around.


I have to disagree with this, I'm afraid. With Oblivion, Bethesda's idea was to remove skills and fix this by adding more realistic npcs. Unfortunately, this didn't work when they removed half the work they did on RAI, deeming it 'too unpreditable'.

With Skyrim, they are continually removing skills (which they've been doing since Daggerfall), but they are also adding  more in terms of the new perk system, dragon shouts, and dual-wielding. I actually approve that they also removed the emphasis on your class. Instead of your character (for some odd reason) starting out with some skills better than others, you simply use what you want your character to use. It's a much more organic system, imo.


I'm going to have to disagree with your disagree!

Radiant AI was a marketing ploy,  it's a scheduling system,  it's not really complex.  I know the classes those guys took,  since I know the school many of them went to,  this was not something difficult for them.  Assign each NPC a path in nodes,  and a probability of moving from one node to any of the next ones,  it's really lower level CS work,  it's a weighted graph with the weights representing probability.  A second year could implement it in code pretty reliably.  I'm 100% certain the Bethseda team could handle it.

As far as Skyrim goes...

...The Perks system isn't a replacement for the lost skills and stats,  especially since it demonstrates they don't understand what the purpose of the stats were in the first place.  "Do 25% more damage to dogs on Sunday" isn't really a big deal.  It works best in parallel with a fully developed Stats/Skills system,  on it's own,  it's much less effective.  It's a supplementary system meant to augment the other systems in user chosen ways that adapts to their playstyle more fully than the stats/skills systems alone can,  essentially it's a renamed implementation of D&D's feat system,  except truth is Fallout did it earlier.  I'm pretty convinced the system will not work as a standalone as I think my way through it.

Dragonshouts and Dual Wielding aren't improving the game either.  Dragonshouts is a universal magic system,  one that everyone uses,  which I would expect will make the actual magic system redundant.  Why play a Mage if the fighter gets spells and the benefits of being a fighter?  class distinctions exist for a reason,  because when you give someone the best of both worlds,  being just a part of the best isn't worth doing.  It's essentially moving towards a Universal Character,  where you're the best at everything,  and at that point what we have is Tomb Raider.  Because now everyone is everything.  It's just bad design in an RPG.

#55
Legbiter

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Good.

I know you "fans" here will tear the game to shreds when it comes out in the most angst-ridden unentitled semi-suicidal way because it didn't fulfill some trifle of yours, but for yours truly, I'm cautiously optimistic and that's all that matters.

#56
KotorEffect3

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Legbiter wrote...

Good.

I know you "fans" here will tear the game to shreds when it comes out in the most angst-ridden unentitled semi-suicidal way because it didn't fulfill some trifle of yours, but for yours truly, I'm cautiously optimistic and that's all that matters.




Well that is many gamers on many gaming forums.  Funny how people that claim to be a fan of a particular series will do nothing but complain about it and it happens everywhere whether it is the bioware, bethesda, or bungie forums.

#57
Knal1991

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[quote]Gatt9 wrote...

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

[quote]Gatt9 wrote...

something[/quote]


As far as Skyrim goes...

...The Perks system isn't a replacement for the lost skills and stats,  especially since it demonstrates they don't understand what the purpose of the stats were in the first place.  "Do 25% more damage to dogs on Sunday" isn't really a big deal.  It works best in parallel with a fully developed Stats/Skills system,  on it's own,  it's much less effective.  It's a supplementary system meant to augment the other systems in user chosen ways that adapts to their playstyle more fully than the stats/skills systems alone can,  essentially it's a renamed implementation of D&D's feat system,  except truth is Fallout did it earlier.  I'm pretty convinced the system will not work as a standalone as I think my way through it.

Dragonshouts and Dual Wielding aren't improving the game either.  Dragonshouts is a universal magic system,  one that everyone uses,  which I would expect will make the actual magic system redundant.  Why play a Mage if the fighter gets spells and the benefits of being a fighter?  class distinctions exist for a reason,  because when you give someone the best of both worlds,  being just a part of the best isn't worth doing.  It's essentially moving towards a Universal Character,  where you're the best at everything,  and at that point what we have is Tomb Raider.  Because now everyone is everything.  It's just bad design in an RPG.[/quote]

got to agree on the magic thing though, that's the first thing I thought...

But considering the game revolves around you, there is no real need for cllass distinction... especially considering magic still gives you more spells... and that we don't really know what's going to happen with the dragonshouts, how often will it be usable and how easy can we get it...? 
If this game would involve a party around you, I'd understand... but alone there is no real worry regarding differences in class, you can play however you want to... roleplay the game how you want to... which still makes it a good rpg....

#58
Morroian

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Gatt9 wrote...

Dragonshouts and Dual Wielding aren't improving the game either.  Dragonshouts is a universal magic system,  one that everyone uses,  which I would expect will make the actual magic system redundant.  Why play a Mage if the fighter gets spells and the benefits of being a fighter?  

For role playing purposes.

#59
Guest_Guest12345_*

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Oh, I just figured it out. Most promising retail title of 2012. I was really scratching my head trying to figure out how professional sales analysts could make a statement like this in the face of Call of Duty.

Makes much more sense when you think about it from a 2012 schedule, despite knowing there will be another Call of Duty in Nov. 2012.

#60
BloodyTalon

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eep wrong forum

Modifié par Talosred, 21 juin 2011 - 11:09 .


#61
Aggie Punbot

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XX55XX wrote...

Analysts are always wrong. ME3 has a lot of buzz, but as a single-player game, people are likely to buy only one copy per household. The game's price will drop like a rock once people complete the game and sell it to others. 

Which is why EA probably wants multiplayer in ME3. 


You're absolutely right*; the poor sales of Mass Effect 2 can confirm that single player games are death to a developer.

* And by 'right' I mean 'absolutely wrong'.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 21 juin 2011 - 11:28 .


#62
Fatex3

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Multiplayer wedged into Singleplayer games never cause them to sell more copies. Just take a look at Dead Space 2, I myself played maybe 6 hours of multiplayer and hardly found many severs, and that was right after release.

#63
Il Divo

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Gatt9 wrote...

Radiant AI was a marketing ploy,  it's a scheduling system,  it's not really complex.  I know the classes those guys took,  since I know the school many of them went to,  this was not something difficult for them.  Assign each NPC a path in nodes,  and a probability of moving from one node to any of the next ones,  it's really lower level CS work,  it's a weighted graph with the weights representing probability.  A second year could implement it in code pretty reliably.  I'm 100% certain the Bethseda team could handle it.


As released, I agree. While it improved Morrowind's static AI, it was hardly game-changing. However, what RAI had originally been commissioned to do is more impressive. Originally, RAI's programming was alot more expansive than what was actually released. It was pretty hyped at the time. Unfortunately, Bethesda deemed the system 'too unpredictable' so they confined it to basic scheduling commands.

As far as Skyrim goes...

...The Perks system isn't a replacement for the lost skills and stats,  especially since it demonstrates they don't understand what the purpose of the stats were in the first place.  "Do 25% more damage to dogs on Sunday" isn't really a big deal.  It works best in parallel with a fully developed Stats/Skills system,  on it's own,  it's much less effective. 

 It's a supplementary system meant to augment the other systems in user chosen ways that adapts to their playstyle more fully than the stats/skills systems alone can,  essentially it's a renamed implementation of D&D's feat system,  except truth is Fallout did it earlier.  I'm pretty convinced the system will not work as a standalone as I think my way through it.


In any role-playing system, players are always choosing abilities that augment their particular playstyle, but it always begins with the choice: what character concept am I trying to make? And from their, the perk system becomes more interesting. It's also not quite as random as fallout's system; in Skyrim, perks are actively tied to your skills. In terms of design, it's seems like they took Oblivion's limited perk-system and expanded it into something worthwhile.

And while I enjoyed the attribute system, I'm actually not upset about the lost skills in Skyrim (Hand-to-Hand, Mysticism, Athletics, Acrobatics). Especially with regards to the last two, which had been notorious for being spammable. Mysticism I might have missed, if it still had mark/recall and levitation. Unfortunately, those went out a while ago.

Dragonshouts and Dual Wielding aren't improving the game either.  Dragonshouts is a universal magic system,  one that everyone uses,  which I would expect will make the actual magic system redundant.  Why play a Mage if the fighter gets spells and the benefits of being a fighter?  class distinctions exist for a reason,  because when you give someone the best of both worlds,  being just a part of the best isn't worth doing. 


While this is true on the surface-level, it doesn't quite take into account the details of the new Dragonshout system. For one, there are limited number of Dragonshouts available (~20) and their effects, from what I've seen, have not really been reproducible with spells. Ex: slow down time/summon storm. Some, like Dragon's Breath, are more basic. But we also haven't seen what limitations each ability has (Ex: cooldowns). If, like greater powers, they are useable once per day, I hardly think that breaks the system.
 
You could also argue that the new Storm shout makes Wizard lightning superfluous, but I'd say no more than it makes swinging a sword useless, especially when you consider that in Morrowind enchantments could be designed allowing warriors to cast insanely powerful spells. For many reasons, casting from enchantments was always preferred to actual spell-casting because the player didn't have to deal with spell failure.  

 

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 juin 2011 - 12:25 .


#64
this isnt my name

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http://t3.gstatic.co...Q8I55WpTzFUSkMQ

Skyrim will beat ME3, it would have been much better if they released at roughly the same time, like they were going to originally, I would like to see Skyrim mop the floor with mass effect.

#65
Bad King

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Bethesda have confirmed that the effects of Dragon shouts will be different to spell effects. While Dragon shouts will be powerful, they will still be different to spellcasting. So I highly doubt that they will make spellcasting redundant- in fact in the recent demo done at E3 they demonstrated how strong the magic is when combined with dragon shouts- the slow down time shout was used in conjunction with a dual wield lightning spell and it worked really well.

And the perk system looks good, definitely better than the broken class system off Oblivion/Morrowind. All the class system did in them was make certain skills level up slightly. In Skyrim a warrior can properly be a warrior through picking perks like shield charge while a thief might pick the perk that allows them to zoom in and hold their breath while drawing a bowstring. So IMO these perks work far better than a class system which had little effect on how I played.

#66
CannotCompute

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Skyrim's animations still look kind of crappy though. It's Bethesda's curse, I guess. They just can't get it right.

Anyway, I've tried every Elder Scrolls title, but never really liked any of them, so I think I'll let the new one pass and just stick with playing Fallout 3 / New Vegas whenever I'm in the mood for a Bethesda game.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 22 juin 2011 - 01:01 .


#67
Guitar-Hero

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Doubtfull, but one can hope, i imagine CoD will do best.. Unfortunately.

#68
Walker White

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Gatt9 wrote...

Radiant AI was a marketing ploy,  it's a scheduling system,  it's not really complex.  I know the classes those guys took,  since I know the school many of them went to,  this was not something difficult for them.  Assign each NPC a path in nodes,  and a probability of moving from one node to any of the next ones,  it's really lower level CS work,  it's a weighted graph with the weights representing probability.  A second year could implement it in code pretty reliably.  I'm 100% certain the Bethseda team could handle it.


Given this claim, I do not believe you have ever taken a real course in artificial intelligence.

The Radiant system was a goal-programming system.  Like PROLOG or just about any standard AI programming framework that you would learn in a standard undergraduate AI course.  You use these because you cannot manifest the full weighted graph of NPC interactions like you suggest.  The combinatorial explosion makes it prohibitive to materialize in memory.  Furthermore, AI programmers cannot meaningfully program graphs that large.  

So you create a programming environment where the programmer specifies very little: the end goals, and some weight metrics that discourage (but do not prevent) certain undesirable paths.  This creates a very large implicit (not explicit) graph that the system searches over on the fly.  These search algorithms are very slow, and this is why this is still an active area of research at the graduate level.  Furthermore, while it is just a "scheduling system", because the graph is implicit, you are not aware of the possible NPC paths until you run it; this is why NPC behavior is unpredictable and hard to tune in a gameplay setting.

More and more game studios are transitioning from this approach to complex event systems for their AI (which are not always easy to design because event negation is an open problem).  These are extremely fast and provide robust but predictable behavior.

#69
HTTP 404

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um...no matter how bad MW3 is as a game. I am almost confident it will have a billion dollar in sales in the first month it comes out. Being a realist here, I doubt Mass Effect 3 will sell that much....

#70
CroGamer002

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^I hope it will at least have less sales then MW2.

#71
Mister Mida

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I don't believe a word of that research. IMO, ME3 has at least Skyrim, MW3, maybe BF3 in front of them when it comes down to most succesful or selling rates.

#72
this isnt my name

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Mesina2 wrote...

^I hope it will at least have less sales then MW2.

It will, I think BF3 will convert alot of MW3 folks. Unless tehy like quickscoping, tac knifing and other cheap stuff.

#73
In Exile

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Walker White wrote...
More and more game studios are transitioning from this approach to complex event systems for their AI (which are not always easy to design because event negation is an open problem).  These are extremely fast and provide robust but predictable behavior.


So is radiant AI based on a learning algorithm? Can it alter weights through back prop?

#74
habitat 67

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Walker White wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Radiant AI was a marketing ploy,  it's a scheduling system,  it's not really complex.  I know the classes those guys took,  since I know the school many of them went to,  this was not something difficult for them.  Assign each NPC a path in nodes,  and a probability of moving from one node to any of the next ones,  it's really lower level CS work,  it's a weighted graph with the weights representing probability.  A second year could implement it in code pretty reliably.  I'm 100% certain the Bethseda team could handle it.


Given this claim, I do not believe you have ever taken a real course in artificial intelligence.

The Radiant system was a goal-programming system.  Like PROLOG or just about any standard AI programming framework that you would learn in a standard undergraduate AI course.  You use these because you cannot manifest the full weighted graph of NPC interactions like you suggest.  The combinatorial explosion makes it prohibitive to materialize in memory.  Furthermore, AI programmers cannot meaningfully program graphs that large.  

So you create a programming environment where the programmer specifies very little: the end goals, and some weight metrics that discourage (but do not prevent) certain undesirable paths.  This creates a very large implicit (not explicit) graph that the system searches over on the fly.  These search algorithms are very slow, and this is why this is still an active area of research at the graduate level.  Furthermore, while it is just a "scheduling system", because the graph is implicit, you are not aware of the possible NPC paths until you run it; this is why NPC behavior is unpredictable and hard to tune in a gameplay setting.

More and more game studios are transitioning from this approach to complex event systems for their AI (which are not always easy to design because event negation is an open problem).  These are extremely fast and provide robust but predictable behavior.


Ha, your victorious owning provides much entertainment.