99 réponses à ce sujet

[Badpie]

RhiPanda wrote...

What kinda bugs me, is that Shep was chosen to be a Spectre because Shep did something really noteworthy in his/her past. Shep either survived impossible odds or saved a lot of people and then continued to rise through the ranks. Then saved Eden Prime and proved that Saren was a traitor. What did the VS do that was so special to make them a Spectre?

Well there was that whole helping take down Saren and Sovereign thing...

And who knows what they've done in the two years since Shepard's death?

Modifié par Badpie, 24 juin 2011 - 03:10 .

[jeweledleah]

Ashley, despite the black mark against her, due to her family name, excelled at all assignments and was promoted multiple times. was the last of her unit on Eden prime - survived against impossible odds. sole survivor.
Kaidan is one of the rare stable L2 biotics.. and one of the strongest ones. highly decorated officer with ton of commendations to his name, personally selected by Anderson, never lost a marine under his command - war hero.

and then, yeah there's the whole hunting for Saren deal.

[shepskisaac]

InviolateNK wrote...
Slept with a Spectre. Always works, honey

I lol'd xD Brilliant!

[The Twilight God]

jeweledleah wrote...

Ashley, despite the black mark against her, due to her family name, excelled at all assignments and was promoted multiple times. was the last of her unit on Eden prime - survived against impossible odds. sole survivor.
Kaidan is one of the rare stable L2 biotics.. and one of the strongest ones. highly decorated officer with ton of commendations to his name, personally selected by Anderson, never lost a marine under his command - war hero.

and then, yeah there's the whole hunting for Saren deal.

Running away from a couple of geth vs surviving an encounter with multiple thresher maws on foot... please.

We have no clue what Kaidan did in the past. We know he has medals, just not what for.  Garrus on Omega - war hero.

Neither VS has anything KNOWN that is comparable to Shepard. Neither Saren or Tela Vasir have anything known that is comparable to Shepard.

[VegasVance]

jeweledleah wrote...

Ashley, despite the black mark against her, due to her family name, excelled at all assignments and was promoted multiple times. was the last of her unit on Eden prime - survived against impossible odds. sole survivor.
Kaidan is one of the rare stable L2 biotics.. and one of the strongest ones. highly decorated officer with ton of commendations to his name, personally selected by Anderson, never lost a marine under his command - war hero.

and then, yeah there's the whole hunting for Saren deal.

Following this then I'd really like to see James Vega have a ruthless backround. 

Back on topic: They hunted Saren, could be manipulated by the Alliance and are human.  Honestly if you ever needed a human Specter to fill in, the VS is it. 

Modifié par VegasVance, 24 juin 2011 - 05:24 .

[Ezzzzz]

 

[1136342t54_]

The Twilight God wrote...

Running away from a couple of geth vs surviving an encounter with multiple thresher maws on foot... please.

We have no clue what Kaidan did in the past. We know he has medals, just not what for.  Garrus on Omega - war hero.

Neither VS has anything KNOWN that is comparable to Shepard. Neither Saren or Tela Vasir have anything known that is comparable to Shepard.

Please don't cherry pick its unbecoming.

Ashley fought against thousands of Geth on Eden Prime and yes they said there were thousands of them and held them off longer than most would. I'd say thousands of Geth and a Freaking Reaper is better then Thresher Maws. Also Shepard ran away from the Thresher Maws. Shep did not kill them but ran and survive.

It seems like your only arguement is that they aren't like Shepard who is NOT the average for a Spectre at all. Shep is likely the best you can get at this point. Shepard has killed two of the Citadel's skilled Spectres. By trying to use Shepard as an example of a regular Spectre is like saying Shepard an example of an average N7. It just doesn't work like that.

[1136342t54_]

The Twilight God wrote...

The 7 is what matters as it is a measure of proficiency. The letter is just the career field. A B7 could be just a skilled in a firefight as a N7. It's just that a B7 would be a frontline marine and and the N7 would specialize in missions outside the scope of open warfare. 

If it were up to me your MVC would change based on your class.

Sentinel and Infiltrator:  N7
Soldier and Vanguard:  B7
Engineer: M7
Adept: S7

Your not really listening. I'm saying that there are likely many skilled personal in the Alliance or hell maybe even other Earth military's that isn't a marine. Remember N7 vocational code only really works for marines not anyother military operatives.

[EsterCloat]

Shepard was a Spectre in ME1. ME2 Shepard would in all likelihood annihilate ME1 Shepard. It really isn't fair comparing anyone to the colossus that is Shepard post-resurrection. Shepard in ME1 was is probably the level most Spectres are working on so I'm fully expecting the VS to at least live up to that amount of skill.

[1136342t54_]

EsterCloat wrote...

Shepard was a Spectre in ME1. ME2 Shepard would in all likelihood annihilate ME1 Shepard. It really isn't fair comparing anyone to the colossus that is Shepard post-resurrection. Shepard in ME1 was is probably the level most Spectres are working on so I'm fully expecting the VS to at least live up to that amount of skill.

Not really. ME1 shepard killed one of the most legendary Spectres alive with and without Sovereign controlling him. Its actually kind of hinted at upgraded Saren being like a upgraded Paul Grayson from Mass Effect Retribution. ME1 Saren is above most Spectres.

[yamomoto]

Shepard isnt just any Spectre, as Tela Vasir said, Shepard is the MOST famous Spectre. (defeating robo-saren, coordinating the attack on nazara/sovereign, defeating the collectors) so its kinda not fair to compare Ashley/Kaiden to Shepard since he is literally the best of the Spectres.

[The Twilight God]

1136342t54 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Running away from a couple of geth vs surviving an encounter with multiple thresher maws on foot... please.

We have no clue what Kaidan did in the past. We know he has medals, just not what for.  Garrus on Omega - war hero.

Neither VS has anything KNOWN that is comparable to Shepard. Neither Saren or Tela Vasir have anything known that is comparable to Shepard.

Please don't cherry pick its unbecoming.

Ashley fought against thousands of Geth on Eden Prime and yes they said there were thousands of them and held them off longer than most would. I'd say thousands of Geth and a Freaking Reaper is better then Thresher Maws. Also Shepard ran away from the Thresher Maws. Shep did not kill them but ran and survive.

It seems like your only arguement is that they aren't like Shepard who is NOT the average for a Spectre at all. Shep is likely the best you can get at this point. Shepard has killed two of the Citadel's skilled Spectres. By trying to use Shepard as an example of a regular Spectre is like saying Shepard an example of an average N7. It just doesn't work like that.

First, Ashley's platoon was ambushed and they all died except for her. Thousands is an overstatement. If a thousand geth rifles ambushed anyone, including Shepard, they would be dead from the first volley. Now IF there were a thousand on the planet that doesn't mean Ashley single handedly faced them all down. Jacob was on Eden Prime too. There were alot of people who made it out alive. Ashley doesn't stand out in any way. And Soveriegn did not engage any ground forces. He landed and offloaded some geth. Ashely did not fend off a reaper on foot. The sheer idiocy of such a statement is astounding so I'm going to pretend you did not make it.

Second, I never said that our lack of knowledge concerning their skills was why they shouldn't be a SPECTRE or that not being Shepard's equal makes them unworthy. That's why I brought up the fact that as far as I know, both Saren and Tela Vasir have nothing on their record explaining why they were made SPECTREs. Furthermore, Shepard did not kill Saren or Tela Vasir. Shepard +2 killed Saren or Saren killed himself. Shepard, Liara and <insert squadmate> killed Tela Vasir. In each case, when pitted 1 vs 1 Shepard doesn't come out quite on top (Saren was distracted by sirens and Liara scared off Tela).

You are so busy defending, that you're seeing attackers where there are none. The funny thing is when I started this thread I was more concerned with AI vs rather or not they should be SPECTREs.

[The Twilight God]

1136342t54 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The 7 is what matters as it is a measure of proficiency. The letter is just the career field. A B7 could be just a skilled in a firefight as a N7. It's just that a B7 would be a frontline marine and and the N7 would specialize in missions outside the scope of open warfare. 

If it were up to me your MVC would change based on your class.

Sentinel and Infiltrator:  N7
Soldier and Vanguard:  B7
Engineer: M7
Adept: S7

Your not really listening. I'm saying that there are likely many skilled personal in the Alliance or hell maybe even other Earth military's that isn't a marine. Remember N7 vocational code only really works for marines not anyother military operatives.

I'm not opposing you. I'm simply adding my 2 cents. There was a sentiment, not necessarily yours, going around that a person needed to be an N7 to even be considered for the SPECTREs.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 24 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[1136342t54_]

The Twilight God wrote...
First, Ashley's platoon was ambushed and they all died except for her. Thousands is an overstatement. If a thousand geth rifles ambushed anyone, including Shepard, they would be dead from the first volley. Now IF there were a thousand on the planet that doesn't mean Ashley single handedly faced them all down. Jacob was on Eden Prime too. There were alot of people who made it out alive. Ashley doesn't stand out in any way. And Soveriegn did not engage any ground forces. He landed and offloaded some geth. Ashely did not fend off a reaper on foot. The sheer idiocy of such a statement is astounding so I'm going to pretend you did not make it.

I didn't say Ashley fought Sovereign or all Thousands of Geth on foot. The point I'm trying to make is that she was one of the very few soldiers who actually survived an invasion by a military force superior in nearly everyway to theres. Whoever does this is a smart and very skilled soldier akin to Shepard but not exactly like him.

Second, I never said that our lack of knowledge concerning their skills was why they shouldn't be a SPECTRE or that not being Shepard's equal makes them unworthy. That's why I brought up the fact that as far as I know, both Saren and Tela Vasir have nothing on their record explaining why they were made SPECTREs. Furthermore, Shepard did not kill Saren or Tela Vasir. Shepard +2 killed Saren or Saren killed himself. Shepard, Liara and <insert squadmate> killed Tela Vasir. In each case, when pitted 1 vs 1 Shepard doesn't come out quite on top (Saren was distracted by sirens and Liara scared off Tela).

If you want to use Shepard and his teammates then you could easily say that Ashley or Kaidan was a part of the team that fought Saren. If Shepard needed plenty of help fighting Saren then I'd say his teammates are skilled enough to take on a Spectre and live. To be frank its far more likely Shepard did kill Saren and Tela Vasir since its widely said by most that Shepard took down Saren. Even in close quarters Saren and Shepard was about equal. 

You are so busy defending, that you're seeing attackers where there are none. The funny thing is when I started this thread I was more concerned with AI vs rather or not they should be SPECTREs.

Okay...

You may have started this thread in relation to AI but my first response to you was because you seemed to think that Kaidan or Ashley wouldn't be able to get the job done as well as many spectres could. Personally AI doesn't bother me since we have a badass Krogan battlemaster that has likely over a millenia of warfare or a biotic supersoldier get downed by random mercs or geth.

[1136342t54_]

The Twilight God wrote...

I'm not opposing you. I'm simply adding my 2 cents. There was a sentiment, not necessarily yours, going around that a person needed to be an N7 to even be considered for the SPECTREs.

I thought you were arguing against it. Sorry bout that.

[The Twilight God]

1136342t54 wrote...
I didn't say Ashley fought Sovereign or all Thousands of Geth on foot. The point I'm trying to make is that she was one of the very few soldiers who actually survived an invasion by a military force superior in nearly everyway to theres. Whoever does this is a smart and very skilled soldier akin to Shepard but not exactly like him.

All I'm saying is you don't need to exagerrate her situation on Eden Prime. I definitely don't think she did anything special by surviving. Alright, she's better than Jenkins... so what? As far as we know, Jacob has accomplished more own his own than Ashley. Riding Shepard's coat tail, in my humble opinion, doesn't make a person great.

Again, I'd like to remind you that Saren and Vasir have no known reason for their acceptance into the SPECTREs. I can only assume they impressed someone important enough. I see no reason to use mental gymnastics to explain why Ashley or Kaidan are SPECTREs. They are. Maybe they've been doing good work in the last 2 years. I don't know. Somebody important was impressed.

If you want to use Shepard and his teammates then you could easily say that Ashley or Kaidan was a part of the team that fought Saren. If Shepard needed plenty of help fighting Saren then I'd say his teammates are skilled enough to take on a Spectre and live. To be frank its far more likely Shepard did kill Saren and Tela Vasir since its widely said by most that Shepard took down Saren. Even in close quarters Saren and Shepard was about equal.

 

If not for that siren Shepard would have been throw off the tower. Saren had ME2 Shepard cybernetic enhancements and lift him with one arm. ME2 Shepard could have probably took Saren 1 vs 1, but not ME1 Shepard. Admittedly, the scene in LotSB where he tackles Vasir out the window made no sense.  I'd have let her jump out the window and gunned her down while she jumped down. It's not really a matter of Shepard not being able to take Vasir 1 vs 1, it simply didn't go down that way. With assistance, she didn't really stand a chance and I assume she knew this. Otherwise, why run. 

You may have started this thread in relation to AI but my first response to you was because you seemed to think that Kaidan or Ashley wouldn't be able to get the job done as well as many spectres could. Personally AI doesn't bother me since we have a badass Krogan battlemaster that has likely over a millenia of warfare or a biotic supersoldier get downed by random mercs or geth.

It's more a matter of personality. It's not that they are wimps. I just don't see Kaidan getting the job done whatever the cost. He seems to have too much conscience. And although Ashley is tough she never struck me as the killer type. By that I mean, killing innocents for the greater good and not being emotional tramatized by the event. Personality wise I'd say Ashley fits the build more than Kaidan though.

Basically, I think they aren't sociopathic enough to be a SPECTRE. At least not a successful SPECTRE.

[FrozenShadow]

I just really want to hear or see the story of how VS could have become Spectre in ME3. Because the way I see it, neither of them have done anything that would support them becoming Spectre. And if they did, then I sure want to hear what was that, so there better be some sort of explanation in ME3.

And I really don't buy that "political" reason either. Yes, Alliance might be happy to get another Spectre, who is actually still loyal to them and not "traitor" like Shepard. But I can't see Council agreeing with this choice. I mean VS is pretty much associated with Shepard and his "Reaper agenda". So, why would Council really want another one of those?

That being said, I have nothing against VS becoming Spectre if they will give us some reason for it in game. Even if the reason would be just something like they needed a new Spectre arrest "Rogue Shepard", who had just killed 300k Batarians.

[Destroy Raiden_]

^ I agree I need to hear something or maybe Cerberus Daily or if BW starts up ANN wikia for Earth or Citadel news wikia or something and they're one of the stories if they become a spector we can find out what important thing(s) they did other then fallow shep around that got them spector status. Right now if I was VS I'd feel insulted because me being raised up to spector was only for political stunts and not because I got it based on my merits.

But with the they needed a spector to hunt down rouge shep he's turning himself in for 3 so no such person is needed and they honestly don't have one single already made spector in the galaxy available for such a cause? They have to appoint a rookie for this? Is it because only they can think like shep and know where in the vast galaxy he'd go? Or is it because they have some other deep personal knowledge that will bring them to shep faster for the capture? That doesn't make any sense. Shep was the solution to avoid war when he was sent after Saren what would be the motive of no other recourse the council would require for VS to be make spector to hunt down a willingly surrendering shep?

[1136342t54_]

The Twilight God wrote...
All I'm saying is you don't need to exagerrate her situation on Eden Prime. I definitely don't think she did anything special by surviving. Alright, she's better than Jenkins... so what? As far as we know, Jacob has accomplished more own his own than Ashley. Riding Shepard's coat tail, in my humble opinion, doesn't make a person great.

What?

I'm not exaggerating I'm constantly trying to say that I'm not. Ashley isn't necessarily special but she survived when most wouldn't. Hell a survivor Shepard is stated as very impressive simply because shep didn't die when all odds were against her. I'm not saying its the same but we have instances when people are considered for the Spectres for lesser reasons then that. Garrus and Nihlus were basically at Ashley's same rank in the military but they were considered for the Spectres and Nihlus became one. Its not as if only the incredibly bad ass become Spectres. Nihlus had to basically be mentored by Saren to get as good as he is. 

Again, I'd like to remind you that Saren and Vasir have no known reason for their acceptance into the SPECTREs. I can only assume they impressed someone important enough. I see no reason to use mental gymnastics to explain why Ashley or Kaidan are SPECTREs. They are. Maybe they've been doing good work in the last 2 years. I don't know. Somebody important was impressed.

Well its like I said earlier. Saren likely was accepted for the same reasons Ashley and Kaidan were. In the Codex since the Turians controlled most of the military forces of the Council there were usually more Turians in the military. Basically Saren likely got into the Spectres because of politics and he impressed someone. Kaidan and Ashley are no different. They are highly decorated officers have a lot of experience in fighting and have been serving in the Alliance doing high risk operations that is so classified that its hard for Cerberus to learn anything about them.

If not for that siren Shepard would have been throw off the tower. Saren had ME2 Shepard cybernetic enhancements and lift him with one arm. ME2 Shepard could have probably took Saren 1 vs 1, but not ME1 Shepard. Admittedly, the scene in LotSB where he tackles Vasir out the window made no sense.  I'd have let her jump out the window and gunned her down while she jumped down. It's not really a matter of Shepard not being able to take Vasir 1 vs 1, it simply didn't go down that way. With assistance, she didn't really stand a chance and I assume she knew this. Otherwise, why run. 

In my playthrough shepard would have just hit the ground in some water near the bomb. That really depends on the situation. Hell Saren was losing the fight so he decided to use a concussive blast to knock everyone to the ground and get into close quarters while Shep is distracted. Thats not the best way to measure a fight. Also Vasir would likely have run just to be safe. I'd bet no Spectre would have really wanted to fight someone who is responsible for the death of one of the most legendary Spectres. Hell I'd bet she would run if Samara was there to be honest,

It's more a matter of personality. It's not that they are wimps. I just don't see Kaidan getting the job done whatever the cost. He seems to have too much conscience. And although Ashley is tough she never struck me as the killer type. By that I mean, killing innocents for the greater good and not being emotional tramatized by the event. Personality wise I'd say Ashley fits the build more than Kaidan though.

Basically, I think they aren't sociopathic enough to be a SPECTRE. At least not a successful SPECTRE.

You know not all Spectres aren't like Saren or Shep right? To be honest the amount of death they have seen and been responsible for I'd say they have the right mindset for that job. Hell Ashley could easily support the idea of genociding the Rachni. She has seen her entire squad and many civillians on Eden Prime die. Kaidan killed a man as a teenager but he got over that not many at that age who aren't trained to handle death would never be able to handle that. As I said before one doesn't start out as a good Spectre. They have to train and encounter situations that will shape them into a future Spectre through experience. Shepard wasn't supposed to become a Spectre yet since Nihlus died. He didn't get the proper training so Politics came into the manner and he became a Spectre. 

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 25 juin 2011 - 07:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm confused.

Whereas Shepard got Spectre status due to heavy politics after having been recognized for surviving some Thresher Maws or being distinguished in a larger battle, some people are puzzled why a person who was intimately involved saving the galaxy over the course of a number of Spectre-level missions and encounters while fighting at the side of a Spectre would, in review, be considered as a possible Spectre material?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[The Twilight God]

1136342t54 wrote...

What?

I'm not exaggerating I'm constantly trying to say that I'm not. Ashley isn't necessarily special but she survived when most wouldn't.

Luck. Her squad was ambushed. They all died and she ran. That is one squad.

Could you tell me where it is stated that most military units were wiped out. Because the impression I get is that the civilian death toll was high.

Hell a survivor Shepard is stated as very impressive simply because shep didn't die when all odds were against her. I'm not saying its the same but we have instances when people are considered for the Spectres for lesser reasons then that. Garrus and Nihlus were basically at Ashley's same rank in the military but they were considered for the Spectres and Nihlus became one. Its not as if only the incredibly bad ass become Spectres. Nihlus had to basically be mentored by Saren to get as good as he is. 

Nihlus was an incredibly badass. That's why he was selected. You're confusing rank/position with combat skills. I assume Kaidan/Ashley have proven themselves to be incredibly badass over the past 2 years. 

Well its like I said earlier. Saren likely was accepted for the same reasons Ashley and Kaidan were. In the Codex since the Turians controlled most of the military forces of the Council there were usually more Turians in the military. Basically Saren likely got into the Spectres because of politics and he impressed someone. Kaidan and Ashley are no different. They are highly decorated officers have a lot of experience in fighting and have been serving in the Alliance doing high risk operations that is so classified that its hard for Cerberus to learn anything about them.

Prior to Eden Prime, Kaidan is highly decorated and I assume has seen combat. For Ashley, Eden Prime was probably the first time she was in actual combat.

There are more turians in the Citadel fleets because the turian military is the largest military force in the known galaxy. That doesn't mean there is a SPECTRE requirment to have 50% turian, 30% asari and 20% salarian.

Saren was accepted because he was good at what he does. Being made a SPECTRE didn't give him magic powers that led to him becoming the top SPECTRE. I highly doubt they just randomly picking a bunch of turians out of a pool to get the turian quota up. People who aren't incredibly badass do not get inducted into the SPECTREs. Why? Because they would be killed. The Council couldn't trust them with anything important becuase they wouldn't be able to handle the missions.  SPECTRE status, being above the law; none of that magically make a person able to handle a 1 vs 10 situation.

In my playthrough shepard would have just hit the ground in some water near the bomb. That really depends on the situation. Hell Saren was losing the fight so he decided to use a concussive blast to knock everyone to the ground and get into close quarters while Shep is distracted. Thats not the best way to measure a fight. Also Vasir would likely have run just to be safe. I'd bet no Spectre would have really wanted to fight someone who is responsible for the death of one of the most legendary Spectres. Hell I'd bet she would run if Samara was there to be honest,

On what basis do you say Saren was losing the fight? Game mechanics (i.e health bar)? 

You basically said Saren was losing the fight... until he decided to win it.  That's like saying Shepard was losing the fight until I hide behind cover, applied some medigel and used shield boost.

You know not all Spectres aren't like Saren or Shep right? To be honest the amount of death they have seen and been responsible for I'd say they have the right mindset for that job. Hell Ashley could easily support the idea of genociding the Rachni. She has seen her entire squad and many civillians on Eden Prime die. Kaidan killed a man as a teenager but he got over that not many at that age who aren't trained to handle death would never be able to handle that. As I said before one doesn't start out as a good Spectre. They have to train and encounter situations that will shape them into a future Spectre through experience. Shepard wasn't supposed to become a Spectre yet since Nihlus died. He didn't get the proper training so Politics came into the manner and he became a Spectre. 

ALL SPECTREs are like Saren, Vasir and Shepard. If they weren't, they'd be in C-Sec. If following the rules and playing by the book was enough there would be no need for SPECTREs. They all do whatever is necessary. If not, they won't last long as SPECTREs.

Killing the rachni queen is not genocide. It's one individual from an agressive  race who nearly wiped out everyone else. Seeing the Rachni as an enemy is justifiable. And of course it looking like a monster makes it even easier to dehumanize it.

Kaidan killed a man by accident in self defense. Not the same as killing 300K people and then going on with your life like nothing happened.

[Badpie]

So since Ashley and Kaidan are SpecTRes, do you think they were "mentored" by another SpecTRe during the process or do you think the Council saw working with Shepard as a good enough prerequisite?

[The Twilight God]

Badpie wrote...

So since Ashley and Kaidan are SpecTRes, do you think they were "mentored" by another SpecTRe during the process or do you think the Council saw working with Shepard as a good enough prerequisite?

It would appear that merely being in Shepard's presense irradiates people with awesomesome.

Liara, awkward archeologist to Jean Grey, the Pheonix.
Garrus, the whiny lil **** to the Dark Knight.
Wrex, regular badass to badass up and coming supreme ruler of all Krogan.
Tali, just another quarian to the Pride of the Flotilla.
So it only makes since that Human squadmate become a SPECTRE.

They all got the Colbert Shepard bump.