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What is with the "Battlestar Galactica" syndrome?


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#376
Aedan_Cousland

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That's not my problem.  The game is best when it is configured to allow the players to experience it as they wish.

This is what annoys me.  It's not enough for you to have an ending you like.  You have to make sure I can't have an ending I like.


Except most of those that think some squad mates should die wouldn't want the outcome you suggest, because your suggestion of linking squad mate deaths to player performance requires their Shepard to make tactical blunders, or for the player to skip content.

Squad mate death should not be solely linked to player performance for that reason.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 23 juin 2011 - 10:07 .


#377
jamesp81

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Aedan_Cousland wrote...

That's not my problem.  The game is best when it is configured to allow the players to experience it as they wish.

This is what annoys me.  It's not enough for you to have an ending you like.  You have to make sure I can't have an ending I like.


Except most of those that think some squad mates should die wouldn't want the outcome you suggest, because your suggestion of linking squad mate deaths to player performance requires their Shepard to make tactical blunders, or for the player to skip content.

Squad mate death should not be solely linked to player performance for that reason.


This sounds all good and well, but it still doesn't change the fact that such people aren't going to be happy until people who see it my way are unhappy.

#378
Dean_the_Young

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So... sucks to be you, then.

#379
xSTONEYx187x

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Mass Effect 3 is to have multiple endings so expect the good, the bad and the ugly, maybe somewhere in between also.

That's why we do multiple playthroughs.

#380
mopotter

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I personally, don't play video games for educational purposes.  I play a video game to have fun and I play BioWare video games to have fun, enjoy a great story and feel good after I'm done. 

 
I don't understand what they've got to do with each other. I love history and reading can be both fun and educational. History is always sad, as is life itself. There is no happy ending: you, me, Shepard and everyone else is going to suffer and die in the end. Everything will be dust again, some day.

I prefer playing games that make an impression. I like to be staring at my monitor for a long time considering the hard choices that need to be made. That's the stuff I will remember, that's the stuff that creates real immersion, that's the stuff that makes (or breaks) games claiming to be about *decision making*. Up to this point, the only real decision we have made is the Kaidan / Ashley one. Everything else is only about helping someone or not (without any consequences). That is not only poor design but also a childish approach. I like games to be mature which, by definition, means you cannot have and/or do all.

P.S. Don't you think you'll feel happy when you finaly have destroyed the Reaper Invasion? Usually people are very happy when the war is over despite all the destruction, suffering and personal loss. Maybe you're mental state is influenced (too much) by Mass Effect's Paragon - Renegade system. You can still smile and feel happiness in the worst possible circumstances you know. Just saying :-)


Nice post.  Pleasure to read.

I am very very picky about the games I play and keep.  I still play - KOTOR; JE; DA: 2; Fall Out 3 with the extra DLC's; Force Unleashed, Fall Out New Vegas; Morrowind and Oblivion.  These are in my play forever pile.  Every one of them makes me feel great at the end and are fun for one reason or another.  Notice Fall Out 3 with DLC not without and   DA:O is not in this pile because I have a real personal problem with what they did to the Alistair romance.  Most people don't and that's fine, I do so it's in my don't keep pile.

Sure, I'll feel happy if I destroy the invasion.  But I'll feel happier and far more thrilled if I destroy the invasion with one game where I did this and everyone is there with me except the ones who have allready gone to the great video game in the sky.

I live a very ordinary life.  go to work, come home fix dinner talk to my husband, watch some tv or play my games, Visit here or somewhere else, go to bed get up and do it all over again.  I'm not a hero and I'll never be one.  I like being the person who can make it happen in a video game and in that video game when there are more than one endings, I like having one where I managed to do the whole thing in an amazing fashion and we all survived.  Not every ending, that would bore me, but one - definitely.   

History isn't always sad.  History is filled with both.  People live, die, love and laugh.  Both of my parents are dead, my grandparents are dead, I know what it feels like to have your loved ones die.  Don't need a video game for this.  These are sad memories.  But I also saw my grandfather bring my grandmother a flower from the fields on their farm.  Well actually it was a weed but it was still very sweet.  And I saw them holding hands while he was in bed dieing.    I want a video to make me happy, not depressed.  :)

I love fiction.   I've got every book Andre Norton wrote and most of the book Louis L'amour wrote;  I read The Count of Monte Cristo about every 2 or 3 years, and a lot of books by Alistair Maclean.  I've been reading books for over, well for a long time.  :)   

#381
mopotter

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Kenthen wrote...

As long as there's no dancing, singing Ewoks I don't care if there's some happy endings in the game.



Oh, but they are so cute.  :innocent:   Even when they were going to bar-b-que Han.  So cute.  Maybe the Hanar could dance and sing?  

#382
Praetor Knight

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mopotter wrote...

Kenthen wrote...

As long as there's no dancing, singing Ewoks I don't care if there's some happy endings in the game.



Oh, but they are so cute.  :innocent:   Even when they were going to bar-b-que Han.  So cute.  Maybe the Hanar could dance and sing?  


Uh, how about Hanar chant and Volus dance? :D

#383
mopotter

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Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

See if I was to scale those endings, I would like to see that it is easier to get A than it is G

Getting A shouldn't be solely about Shepard making tactical errors/blunders/player having to really mess with the system to ensure they get it


I don't think it has to be due to tactical errors.  I think that Shepard should feel that it's more important to finish them off as soon as possible no matter what the sacrifices are.  That would seem a reasonable goal, though not one I'd probably go with.


That would be a tactical error though, actually it would be a combination of all the things I said if Shepard was to do such a thing. Considering what we know from the fight against just 1 Reaper. Shepard would be an idiot to try and go in as quickly as possible without proper preparation.

Even on my worse playthrough I doubt I'll do that unless I've ensured that I've pretty much frelled up any chance of getting any allies due to my choices in the previous games and it is the only way (which as I've said before I really hope isn't the case) to get such an ending.

To all the people going on about us wanting just depressing endings, no we are not, go read Kainryc and Phaedon's posts again. We are basically stating that those endings should be there just as the 'super duper' happy ending but the latter should be harder to get.

We are going up against sentient starships whom have apparently for possibly millions of years gone through this cycle of letting biological races to rise to a certain level then come in and wipe them out. It ain't as if we're going up against some race like the Krogan or the Rachni... going up against the Reapers should make those battles seem like a childs playfight. If they are easily beaten it destroys the whole point of the Reapers being what they are.

As for squad deaths in comparison to the millions of nameless npcs that are most likely going to die, just because there is the latter definitly doesn't mean the former should have plot armor. We aren't just fighting for those nameless people that have fallen but for our squadmates, our allies and ourselves. We fight or we die, that's the plan!

Sorry... couldn't resist using that line :happy:


I actually like that quote.  Along with   No Plans survive first contact with the enemy.  If the enemy is in range SO ARE YOU...  and especially this one:   Always keep in mind that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder, :D

Actually sounds like we more or less agree.  I don't want all of the endings to be supper happy, I don't think any of us happy enders do, just one, and I do think I should have to work for it.  I may even have to go back and play ME1 and 2 changing choices I made, though I think I have enough saved games with different options so I shouldn't have to, might just want to go back.

But that said,  the Happy one is my first choice and others will depend on how they do it.  

#384
mopotter

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[quote]Praetor Shepard wrote...

[quote]mopotter wrote...

[quote]Kenthen wrote...

As long as there's no dancing, singing Ewoks I don't care if there's some happy endings in the game.[/quote]


Oh, but they are so cute.  :innocent:   Even when they were going to bar-b-que Han.  So cute.  Maybe the Hanar could dance and sing?  
[/quote]

[quote]
[quote] Uh, how about Hanar chant and Volus dance? :D[/quote]
[/quote]

Ohhh yes!  this would work.  I can see it allready.  :happy:

edit - quote prob.

Modifié par mopotter, 24 juin 2011 - 12:53 .


#385
mopotter

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double post.  totally giving up on the quote thing.

Modifié par mopotter, 24 juin 2011 - 12:54 .


#386
KainrycKarr

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Again, make it so that under some circumstances, you have no choice but to lose someone, but allow the players decisions to dictate who it is that gets the cut.

That way everyone can save the people want, and those that want sacrifice still get it.

The first time around, EVERYONE will get sacrifices(and not always the ones we want), but later playthroughs allow people to people to craft the story and their surviving team to their liking.

Anyone else think this would make a nice compromise?

#387
Tric

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KainrycKarr wrote...

Again, make it so that under some circumstances, you have no choice but to lose someone, but allow the players decisions to dictate who it is that gets the cut.

That way everyone can save the people want, and those that want sacrifice still get it.

The first time around, EVERYONE will get sacrifices(and not always the ones we want), but later playthroughs allow people to people to craft the story and their surviving team to their liking.

Anyone else think this would make a nice compromise?



Personally I disagree.

Do I want multiple endings of all kind? Of course. From dark, gritty and depressing to a happily ever after (until the next game) and everything in between
Do I want the happy ending to be effortless? Of course not. Anyone who tries to achieve a happy ending should be forced to make sacrifices.

But I don't think these should be of one squaddie for another. I'd far prefer other suggestions pointed out in this topic, in that Shepard is rewarded for placing the well-being of the people of the galaxy above that of his/hers companions and some sort of repercussion for the opposite.


Also, I apologise if for any errors or misunderstandings this post may cause, english isn't my first language. :blush:
*Correction a formatting error of some sort*

Modifié par SomethingSome, 24 juin 2011 - 01:49 .


#388
Heimdall

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mopotter wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

See if I was to scale those endings, I would like to see that it is easier to get A than it is G

Getting A shouldn't be solely about Shepard making tactical errors/blunders/player having to really mess with the system to ensure they get it


I don't think it has to be due to tactical errors.  I think that Shepard should feel that it's more important to finish them off as soon as possible no matter what the sacrifices are.  That would seem a reasonable goal, though not one I'd probably go with.


That would be a tactical error though, actually it would be a combination of all the things I said if Shepard was to do such a thing. Considering what we know from the fight against just 1 Reaper. Shepard would be an idiot to try and go in as quickly as possible without proper preparation.

Even on my worse playthrough I doubt I'll do that unless I've ensured that I've pretty much frelled up any chance of getting any allies due to my choices in the previous games and it is the only way (which as I've said before I really hope isn't the case) to get such an ending.

To all the people going on about us wanting just depressing endings, no we are not, go read Kainryc and Phaedon's posts again. We are basically stating that those endings should be there just as the 'super duper' happy ending but the latter should be harder to get.

We are going up against sentient starships whom have apparently for possibly millions of years gone through this cycle of letting biological races to rise to a certain level then come in and wipe them out. It ain't as if we're going up against some race like the Krogan or the Rachni... going up against the Reapers should make those battles seem like a childs playfight. If they are easily beaten it destroys the whole point of the Reapers being what they are.

As for squad deaths in comparison to the millions of nameless npcs that are most likely going to die, just because there is the latter definitly doesn't mean the former should have plot armor. We aren't just fighting for those nameless people that have fallen but for our squadmates, our allies and ourselves. We fight or we die, that's the plan!

Sorry... couldn't resist using that line :happy:


I actually like that quote.  Along with   No Plans survive first contact with the enemy.  If the enemy is in range SO ARE YOU...  and especially this one:   Always keep in mind that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder, :D

Actually sounds like we more or less agree.  I don't want all of the endings to be supper happy, I don't think any of us happy enders do, just one, and I do think I should have to work for it.  I may even have to go back and play ME1 and 2 changing choices I made, though I think I have enough saved games with different options so I shouldn't have to, might just want to go back.

But that said,  the Happy one is my first choice and others will depend on how they do it.  

  I like the quotes, so I'll throw in another The goal of war is not to die for your country!  Its to make the other guy die for his country!

#389
jamesp81

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

So... sucks to be you, then.


How quaint <_<

#390
jamesp81

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mopotter wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I personally, don't play video games for educational purposes.  I play a video game to have fun and I play BioWare video games to have fun, enjoy a great story and feel good after I'm done. 

 
I don't understand what they've got to do with each other. I love history and reading can be both fun and educational. History is always sad, as is life itself. There is no happy ending: you, me, Shepard and everyone else is going to suffer and die in the end. Everything will be dust again, some day.

I prefer playing games that make an impression. I like to be staring at my monitor for a long time considering the hard choices that need to be made. That's the stuff I will remember, that's the stuff that creates real immersion, that's the stuff that makes (or breaks) games claiming to be about *decision making*. Up to this point, the only real decision we have made is the Kaidan / Ashley one. Everything else is only about helping someone or not (without any consequences). That is not only poor design but also a childish approach. I like games to be mature which, by definition, means you cannot have and/or do all.

P.S. Don't you think you'll feel happy when you finaly have destroyed the Reaper Invasion? Usually people are very happy when the war is over despite all the destruction, suffering and personal loss. Maybe you're mental state is influenced (too much) by Mass Effect's Paragon - Renegade system. You can still smile and feel happiness in the worst possible circumstances you know. Just saying :-)


Nice post.  Pleasure to read.

I am very very picky about the games I play and keep.  I still play - KOTOR; JE; DA: 2; Fall Out 3 with the extra DLC's; Force Unleashed, Fall Out New Vegas; Morrowind and Oblivion.  These are in my play forever pile.  Every one of them makes me feel great at the end and are fun for one reason or another.  Notice Fall Out 3 with DLC not without and   DA:O is not in this pile because I have a real personal problem with what they did to the Alistair romance.  Most people don't and that's fine, I do so it's in my don't keep pile.

Sure, I'll feel happy if I destroy the invasion.  But I'll feel happier and far more thrilled if I destroy the invasion with one game where I did this and everyone is there with me except the ones who have allready gone to the great video game in the sky.

I live a very ordinary life.  go to work, come home fix dinner talk to my husband, watch some tv or play my games, Visit here or somewhere else, go to bed get up and do it all over again.  I'm not a hero and I'll never be one.  I like being the person who can make it happen in a video game and in that video game when there are more than one endings, I like having one where I managed to do the whole thing in an amazing fashion and we all survived.  Not every ending, that would bore me, but one - definitely.   

History isn't always sad.  History is filled with both.  People live, die, love and laugh.  Both of my parents are dead, my grandparents are dead, I know what it feels like to have your loved ones die.  Don't need a video game for this.  These are sad memories.  But I also saw my grandfather bring my grandmother a flower from the fields on their farm.  Well actually it was a weed but it was still very sweet.  And I saw them holding hands while he was in bed dieing.    I want a video to make me happy, not depressed.  :)

I love fiction.   I've got every book Andre Norton wrote and most of the book Louis L'amour wrote;  I read The Count of Monte Cristo about every 2 or 3 years, and a lot of books by Alistair Maclean.  I've been reading books for over, well for a long time.  :)   


A fellow reader :)

I agree with your post 1000%.

#391
Praetor Knight

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Here's one I like:

Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading. [Source Unknown]

#392
AlanC9

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Lizardviking wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
However, note that there is a tradeoff for skipping content in ME2. Unless you delay doing the IFF mission (and you don't know you ought to do that unless you're metagaming), finishing up the LMs results in more of your crew being eaten.


Am I one the few who knew that the Reaper IFF mission was going to be something of a "endgame opener" of some sort and therefor should be played last?


Yeah, I think anyone who's played Bio games before could see that one coming.

Like I said upthread, I wish they'd forced that mission on us the moment it came up.

#393
AlanC9

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jamesp81 wrote...
This is what annoys me.  It's not enough for you to have an ending you like.  You have to make sure I can't have an ending I like.


Unfortunately, that's exactly right. Because if you can get that ending, I have to deliberately make bad decisions or I'll get it too. I don't want to have to deliberately make bad decisions.

#394
KainrycKarr

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AlanC9 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
This is what annoys me.  It's not enough for you to have an ending you like.  You have to make sure I can't have an ending I like.


Unfortunately, that's exactly right. Because if you can get that ending, I have to deliberately make bad decisions or I'll get it too. I don't want to have to deliberately make bad decisions.


What if you didn't have to make bad decisions, just different decisions?

#395
AlanC9

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Depends on if those different decisions involve actual tradeoffs.Trading off Kelly and some other Normandy crew for better squadmate preparation worked fine for me. Being able to save everyone and get 100% preparation did not work for me.

#396
Obsidian Gryphon

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Praetor Shepard wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Kenthen wrote...

As long as there's no dancing, singing Ewoks I don't care if there's some happy endings in the game.



Oh, but they are so cute.  :innocent:   Even when they were going to bar-b-que Han.  So cute.  Maybe the Hanar could dance and sing?  


Uh, how about Hanar chant and Volus dance? :D


I'll settle for Hanar lightbulbs and Volus beachballs. Image IPB

#397
In Exile

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AlanC9 wrote...

Depends on if those different decisions involve actual tradeoffs.Trading off Kelly and some other Normandy crew for better squadmate preparation worked fine for me. Being able to save everyone and get 100% preparation did not work for me.


Bioware doesn't design games that have the potential for failure. That's a real shame.

#398
Destroy Raiden_

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Multiple endings would be nice one of the reasons I stick with way of the samurai is not only the deliberately cheesy no voice overs but the multiple difficult endings the latest one had 25 endings you could get I'm still trying to unlock them all! I got uber happy my hero lives, the good people in the game live, happy as can be. I got one ending where I chose to sacrifice myself so the child could live I got executed for her, another one I tore the country apart with warfare and killed a boat load of people with my interference, I love it.

Silent Hill also did this with in game slight of hand you needed to do hidden things in the game like save the cop by throwing a vile you picked up in the hospital that stated it was a strange bottle and that was all no clues or hints and if you didn't pay attention you forgot about it quickly so anyway bad ending you have to kill your daughter and it's horrible or the good ending you live and your child is reborn from the monster who overtook her.

DA's I could die, Alister could die, or neither of us died endings worked well enough.

I don't think ME3 requires 25 endings 4 would do for me but make it vary a uber happy, happy but you took losses, sad you lost alot, and horrible for lack of foresight into how they'll craft endings o n this one but you get the idea.

I would also like at least DA style sum up of who lived, what they did with their lives, and achievements if any they made after you achive the ending you did. I want to know what happened to the worlds I saved, and rememberable npcs what happened to them and if shep lived I'd like to know what he/she did after everything. Using the text sum up with pretty images would be enough and we would like DA just press A to advance to the next note sense we all read at different speeds.

And I think bonus items like weapons or armor should be unlocked after game completion depending on our valour throughout 3 or lack there of if you're epic fail shep like 2 had him be.

#399
AlanC9

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In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Depends on if those different decisions involve actual tradeoffs.Trading off Kelly and some other Normandy crew for better squadmate preparation worked fine for me. Being able to save everyone and get 100% preparation did not work for me.


Bioware doesn't design games that have the potential for failure. That's a real shame.


True, but ME2 didn't do too badly at this. A couple of the LMs can be botched, for instance. I blew Thane's on my first playthrough when I started following the wrong guy.

#400
KBomb

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There isn’t anything wrong with wanting a happy ending. I don’t want any of my crew members to die. I want my Shepard to live. I don’t know if that will happen, but I certainly hope it’s one of the endings.