416 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

jamesp81 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Who says that it must the LI that dies? It should still come down to some choices who you go save or who to sacrifice.

And people saying its because we want "grim-dark" - No it is not, but there is something called "willing suspension of disbelief" that goes out the crapper if no one dies in the greatest war of humanity (and the rest of the current galaxy).

If there is no downsides to saving everyone, why would anyone not want to do that...? As it is more content in the end.

So it's immersion breaking for you if the team gets lucky and wins, but there are still a few billion dead?

That few billion dead ought to be enough.

A few billion people we've never met on a planet we've never seen. Big whoop, who cares? There's no impact. It could be 10 people, 10 million, or a billion and it still has no personal relevance to the player. 

Maybe not to you.

If your idea of consequence is reading about something happening to a character you don't know in a place you've never been, I think we simply have nothing more we could possibly say to each other. We're obviously operating on entirely different wavelengths.

[KainrycKarr]

Bnol wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Bnol wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

I imagine there will be a best case scenario, but if *that* scenario is good to the point where everyone survives, then the story is going to feel very juvenile. The threat is armageddon, so I'm going to do EVERYTHING I can to stop it; if everyone survives after I make maximum effort, then the Reaper threat is going to feel like something out of My Little Pony and I will be forced to wonder how that is even consistent with their reputation of wiping out god-knows-how-many advanced galactic civilisations.

Because it's a lot harder to save billions of people, than it is to keep a team of 8-10 people alive.

Oh please no biblical flood type ending....

....what? I'm saying it would be a lot easier for a small team of individuals(Shep's crew) to survive a war, considering they can pick their battles, than it is for billions of people who are mostly untrained, have no control over their surroundings, and can't do anything about it.

I was just stating that I wouldn't prefer the entire galaxy is destroyed except Shepard and his squad, thus they must rebuild the galaxy ending.  Which could be done with the technological advances of gene alteration and the ability to tank breed.

That's....not even remotely in the same ballpark of what I was saying or implying. Not even in the same galaxy, actually.

[jamesp81]

AwesomeName wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Total survival cheapens the Reapers' deal hence the story.

Except total survival isn't possible already. Millions are already dead.
Hell, it's possible given the events of Arrival and what we've seen so far for ME3 that at least one race might already be extinct or near-extinct(batarians).

I just want the possibility of Shepard and his squad making it out alive. Is that really so offensive, just allowing the option?

Realistically, though, some situations simply don't allow for an option (e.g. there was no way around the Virmire situation). 

Given the gravity of the situation, I don't see how any playthrough, no matter how hard you try is going to avoid similar situations.  If they don't exist anywhere, then how grave is this threat really? 

It's a game.  Telling a story of fiction.  The whole POINT is to get away from realism.

Realistically, if the Reapers were real, the result would be everyone dies and the cycle continues.  That's not what we're plopping down our $60 USD for.

I get plenty of realism every day in reality.  Imagine that.  I don't want depressing realism in my entertainment.  That's not what entertainment is for, or about.  The heroic epic is by far my favorite trope (if you will) and is a fun, uplifting story.

[ZLurps]

jamesp81 wrote...

Good example how that can scew things is how some people who has posted
in this topic has said that it was really easy to keep your whole squad
alive through ME2, but statistics don't support that at all.

This is a good point.  I actually lost one squad member on my first run, mainly because I made a wrong choice on assignments.

People I know have lost even more based on those choices.  Most people aren't into the characters as much as we are on BSN.

For example, my good friend lost three or four the first time he played it.  He made the right choice on who to send through the vents, but picked Mordin to lead the second fire team both times and sent an unloyal Zaeed back with the crew.  His reasoning was that Mordin was an STG operative and had special forces experience.  So Mordin was actually a reasonable choice, as his reasoning made sense.  As for sending back Zaeed, anyone will work for that part, but it weakened his hold the line forces.  Of course, the hard core fans like us on BSN know it has to be Miranda or Garrus on the second fire team, Mordin for crew escort, and Zaeed, Grunt, and Garrus need to be holding the line.

Those things are not immediately obvious to most of the world.

I also think 'most of the world' is going to be pissed if there isn't a path for them to achieve a good ending.

Yeah. If I get to BSG that's mentioned in OP, it ratings dropped like a brick on season 3. I can totally see why. No amount of beautiful female cast, or eye candy for women, even orgies on Cylon Basestar could help it. It was not only too dark, it was also way too "emo", as it's called today.
I don't think BioWare have any intentions to screw up their own francise the same way.

[Fdingo]

Almost all the main characters lived on BSG.

[KainrycKarr]

Fdingo wrote...

Almost all the main characters were cylons in BSG.

[jamesp81]

ZLurps wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Good example how that can scew things is how some people who has posted
in this topic has said that it was really easy to keep your whole squad
alive through ME2, but statistics don't support that at all.

This is a good point.  I actually lost one squad member on my first run, mainly because I made a wrong choice on assignments.

People I know have lost even more based on those choices.  Most people aren't into the characters as much as we are on BSN.

For example, my good friend lost three or four the first time he played it.  He made the right choice on who to send through the vents, but picked Mordin to lead the second fire team both times and sent an unloyal Zaeed back with the crew.  His reasoning was that Mordin was an STG operative and had special forces experience.  So Mordin was actually a reasonable choice, as his reasoning made sense.  As for sending back Zaeed, anyone will work for that part, but it weakened his hold the line forces.  Of course, the hard core fans like us on BSN know it has to be Miranda or Garrus on the second fire team, Mordin for crew escort, and Zaeed, Grunt, and Garrus need to be holding the line.

Those things are not immediately obvious to most of the world.

I also think 'most of the world' is going to be pissed if there isn't a path for them to achieve a good ending.

Yeah. If I get to BSG that's mentioned in OP, it ratings dropped like a brick on season 3. I can totally see why. No amount of beautiful female cast, or eye candy for women, even orgies on Cylon Basestar could help it. It was not only too dark, it was also way too "emo", as it's called today.
I don't think BioWare have any intentions to screw up their own francise the same way.

Yeah.  I quit watching it halfway through the third season.  I had finally had enough of OMG we're all gonna die <_<

I literally have absolutely no compulsion to back to it to see how it ends.

Modifié par jamesp81, 21 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[marshalleck]

Mac Walters and friends can only wish ME3 will approach BSG-quality writing.

[Repearized Miranda]

jamesp81 wrote...

As we have agreed that the SM was written badly

I've agreed to no such thing.

I personally think the SM was one of the greatest moments in all of video gaming, and I've been playing them for a long time now.

Let me rephrase that. If you take away the immersion. I, too, thought the SM was great, but I've also played the game four times! What I meant was the complaint about how hard it was to fail it! I countered by saying it wasn't and said HOW to fail at it. I also noted that a gamer's mentality is: "I wanna win, not lose!"

It was written "badly" because to lose the game, it didn't come down to being an ass - just like winning the the game didn't come down to being a saint as both character types can either win or lose - even if they went in the opposite directions (Again, this has nothing to do with the story)

Winning also didn't mean saving everybody nor did losing mean everybody dying (of course, you're at a loss since deceased ME2 mates can't be in ME3) because saving one person out of several could be good while losing one out of several may not be so good (Again, immersion, but once that is gone ...)

So, then, they "gray" ending question comes up. Yet, this should be tied to the S/A (saint/ass) scale because is there really a neutral/indifferent player? Tere may be some, but I doubt there's more than that.

If I'm blue, I should get the good ending
If I'm red, I should get the bad one
If I'm purple, I should get the middle one, I suppose.

I don't think BW had the intention of being this restrictive to players - despite "The Paragades are getting shafted" complaint.

This is why I believe the SM though it was pretty damn epic - story/immersion wise, it was still too black or white which forced players to go black AND white; however, there was nothing gray in there if you went that route.

[ZLurps]

Fdingo wrote...

Almost all the main characters lived on BSG.

Yep, but I could see why some would wish them dead.

I Don't wish my ME squad would die though, they work instead of whining and IMO deserve to live.

[Fdingo]

So? Wasn't the whole point by the end of the series that we are essentially all the same? Being a Cylon wasn't...depressing.

[TheCrakFox]

Yo.

I'm not saying there should be totally scripted events where character X dies at point Y. I'm saying that characters should die, but who, how, where and why should be influenced by the players decisions. It should be impossible to complete the game with a 100% survival rate, Hollywood cheese is boring.

Just thought there was a misunderstanding I should clear up. (A few pages back, I got distracted by Alan Wake)

[jamesp81]

marshalleck wrote...

Mac Walters and friends can only wish ME3 will approach BSG-quality writing.

That series went to **** near the end.  I never finished it.  Don't care to, either.  It started out great and ended up a damned catastrophe that the writers of it ought to be ashamed of.

[Fdingo]

As far as I'm concerned a mega happy ending is only worth it if we actually get a decent epilogue this time around. Otherwise it doesn't matter that much.

[jamesp81]

TheCrakFox wrote...

Yo.

I'm not saying there should be totally scripted events where character X dies at point Y. I'm saying that characters should die, but who, how, where and why should be influenced by the players decisions. It should be impossible to complete the game with a 100% survival rate, Hollywood cheese is boring.

Just thought there was a misunderstanding I should clear up. (A few pages back, I got distracted by Alan Wake)

Sorry, not going along with that.  A 100% survival should be possible under the right circumstances.  Maybe if you beat the game on insanity, for example.

[ZLurps]

marshalleck wrote...

Mac Walters and friends can only wish ME3 will approach BSG-quality writing.

There were some great possibilities in it, but they IMO lost them because execution was just awfull.

One of the things I find weird is that series is claimed to be realistic because of it's darkness and desperation.
It's just funny it goes against everything I have experienced and read about how people survive mechanisms works in extreme situations.

[KainrycKarr]

TheCrakFox wrote...

Yo.

I'm not saying there should be totally scripted events where character X dies at point Y. I'm saying that characters should die, but who, how, where and why should be influenced by the players decisions. It should be impossible to complete the game with a 100% survival rate, Hollywood cheese is boring.

Just thought there was a misunderstanding I should clear up. (A few pages back, I got distracted by Alan Wake)

I'm in complete agreement with you.

[marshalleck]

jamesp81 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Mac Walters and friends can only wish ME3 will approach BSG-quality writing.

That series went to **** near the end.  I never finished it.  Don't care to, either.  It started out great and ended up a damned catastrophe that the writers of it ought to be ashamed of.

It was great right up until the finale. That's a lot more than can be said for Mass Effect; the second game was a complete disaster story/character wise.

[TheCrakFox]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheCrakFox wrote...

Yo.

I'm not saying there should be totally scripted events where character X dies at point Y. I'm saying that characters should die, but who, how, where and why should be influenced by the players decisions. It should be impossible to complete the game with a 100% survival rate, Hollywood cheese is boring.

Just thought there was a misunderstanding I should clear up. (A few pages back, I got distracted by Alan Wake)

Sorry, not going along with that.  A 100% survival should be possible under the right circumstances.  Maybe if you beat the game on insanity, for example.

I dont like the idea of tying the story in with the difficulty or the players combat skill. Any deviations in the story should be based on conscious decisions. That doesn't mean the consequences of decisions have to be immediately apparent, however.

[KainrycKarr]

Fdingo wrote...

So? Wasn't the whole point by the end of the series that we are essentially all the same? Being a Cylon wasn't...depressing.

I'd be pretty damn depressed if I turned out to be a robot.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I could see a semi-tragic ending working, and I hope it ends with this song.

[Fdingo]

KainrycKarr wrote...
I'd be pretty damn depressed if I turned out to be a robot.

But they weren't robots anymore, they were people just like humans. BSG actually had a pretty great message. In the hands of some other writers it would have been about cylons vs humans the entire time but the final season really drove the idea home that being a cylon or a human does not define you.

[jamesp81]

TheCrakFox wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheCrakFox wrote...

Yo.

I'm not saying there should be totally scripted events where character X dies at point Y. I'm saying that characters should die, but who, how, where and why should be influenced by the players decisions. It should be impossible to complete the game with a 100% survival rate, Hollywood cheese is boring.

Just thought there was a misunderstanding I should clear up. (A few pages back, I got distracted by Alan Wake)

Sorry, not going along with that.  A 100% survival should be possible under the right circumstances.  Maybe if you beat the game on insanity, for example.

I dont like the idea of tying the story in with the difficulty or the players combat skill. Any deviations in the story should be based on conscious decisions. That doesn't mean the consequences of decisions have to be immediately apparent, however.

Fair enough.

Bottom line is, I want a nice, happy, win against all odds after being dragged to the bottom, sort of ending.  I don't much care if that bothers anyone else.  If it does, that's entirely their problem.

If others want an ugly depressing sort of game, I'm sure the devs will write one of those kind of endings into it too.

[ZLurps]

Fdingo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
I'd be pretty damn depressed if I turned out to be a robot.

But they weren't robots anymore, they were people just like humans. BSG actually had a pretty great message. In the hands of some other writers it would have been about cylons vs humans the entire time but the final season really drove the idea home that being a cylon or a human does not define you.

Yep, sentiet beings and all that... water is wet.

Other great discoveries: Techology is bad, baaad!!!
To drive this point through writes decided to go with the ending where these new colonists were without medicine, that would mean 75% mortality rate from infections even from as simple as wound in one's finger in environment alien to their immune system. And Eve, sweet child that would breed with pre-historic humans to give common parents for next generation, kinda doubt she did it willingly.

Really happy ending with a message, because technolgy is bad, baaad! I guess especially if you are hippie from the '60s.

Modifié par ZLurps, 21 juin 2011 - 10:06 .