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Liara's lack of death


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#401
Dean_the_Young

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Liara was only necessary to the plot by fiat.

[...]

Liara has been an important character to the plot, but she's never been a necessary character to the plot. To this point, she could be replaced by, well, just about everyone or anyone.


:o

HOLY BAJEEZUS.

I... I hadn't thought of it like that before! All this time, I begrudingly swallowed Liara's "importance" because I told myself, "Ah, she's necessary! You may not like it, but she's the only one who can push the plot forward!"

BUT NO! You're right, she just reinforces the plot-points that we already know. She just reinforces the plot-points that are already there. She adds nothing unique except a potential romance!

She raped my mind for nothing--the Cypher or the Beacons would've filled that role without her. I suffered through her ME2 reunion for nothing--a terminal would've given me the information I needed for Samara and Thane.

I... I... Why you do this, Bioware? Why do you take an otherwise superfluous character and cram her down my throat for the sake of advancing the plot? Whyyy...?

We could've had action-girl Tali! Teamed up with Archangle! IT WOULD'VE BEEN GLORIOUS.


I'm sorry: you're welcome.

#402
Dean_the_Young

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

Xalen wrote...

Sshodan wrote...

@ Xalen
She is replaceable, if we replace her with let's say... Tali? Or Miranda who will ply the same role and be plot necessary through all 3 games it will be better? Or well we just get the same tread here with different name on top? :)


D'oh. That's what I'm arguing.
If she's replacable, then why not replace her? Why not give equal treatment to all squadmates? Please, give me a good reason and I assure you I'll accept it and shut up. So far I have only one explanation.


This. Why not break up Liara's major plot-points (discovering Ilos, finding Shepard's body, becomign the Shadow Broker) and disperse it to other characters? Why focus so much importance on one character when there's an entire cast of amazing people just waiting for their moment to shine?

You know who would have made an amazingly justified Shadow Broker?


Miranda.

Just... let that blow your mind for a bit.

She has the experience. She's has the background to justify being really, really smart and capable of leading a secretive organization. She has the brains and ruthlessness to play hardball, but the inner softy to not abuse it. Doing so lets her protect both herself and her sister from her father, and both nominaly help Cerberus on her terms (while she's still connected to it) but also still be relevant when split with Cerberus (whether Shepard goes Paragon in ME2, or after Cerberus sides with the Reapers).

#403
TheMarshal

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides the sillyness of treating Liara like the only potential source of information Shepard could find, there's still Jacob and Miranda and Thane, who are all still good enough to hold the bubble for the mission to go through if you let Jack die/go unloyal.


And choosing any one of them results in someone dying, loyal or not.

#404
Dean_the_Young

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TheMarshal wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides the sillyness of treating Liara like the only potential source of information Shepard could find, there's still Jacob and Miranda and Thane, who are all still good enough to hold the bubble for the mission to go through if you let Jack die/go unloyal.


And choosing any one of them results in someone dying, loyal or not.

And? So what? 

You still can complete the mission. If you're stuck with that choice in the first place, you've already lost Jack, which means you've already settled for less than a perfect playthrough by deliberatly ignorring upgrades.

#405
KawaiiKatie

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

You know who would have made an amazingly justified Shadow Broker?


Miranda.

Just... let that blow your mind for a bit.


STOP IT! STOP BLOWING MY MIND!

You're seriously making me question Liara's purpose outside of "ooooh hot blue lesbian action" and it hurts my soul. For a long time I've been screaming that Liara's big, galaxy-shaking plot-points should be dispersed amongst several characters so that we could have an entire cast of plot-important space-heroes, but no, we have all of that plot-importance condensed into one character, and you're making me weep for what could've been.

#406
TheMarshal

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

And? So what? 

You still can complete the mission. If you're stuck with that choice in the first place, you've already lost Jack, which means you've already settled for less than a perfect playthrough by deliberatly ignorring upgrades.


You claimed that they were 'good enough' to hold the bubble.  I was just pointing out that they weren't, since someone dies.

#407
Dean_the_Young

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You know who would have made an amazingly justified Shadow Broker?


Miranda.

Just... let that blow your mind for a bit.


STOP IT! STOP BLOWING MY MIND!

You're seriously making me question Liara's purpose outside of "ooooh hot blue lesbian action" and it hurts my soul. For a long time I've been screaming that Liara's big, galaxy-shaking plot-points should be dispersed amongst several characters so that we could have an entire cast of plot-important space-heroes, but no, we have all of that plot-importance condensed into one character, and you're making me weep for what could've been.

Oh, Liara serves another important role:

Socially awkward nerd bait, for those guys who want a girl more socially inept than they are who still looks at them with total awe...

...though Tali rather stole that spot in ME2.

#408
Dean_the_Young

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TheMarshal wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And? So what? 

You still can complete the mission. If you're stuck with that choice in the first place, you've already lost Jack, which means you've already settled for less than a perfect playthrough by deliberatly ignorring upgrades.


You claimed that they were 'good enough' to hold the bubble.  I was just pointing out that they weren't, since someone dies.

And? Shepard and the rest get through. That's good enough to complete the mission.

Casualties are acceptable. Failure is not.

(Insert uber-Renegade motivational.)

#409
KawaiiKatie

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oh, Liara serves another important role:

Socially awkward nerd bait, for those guys who want a girl more socially inept than they are who still looks at them with total awe...

...though Tali rather stole that spot in ME2.


Well, yeah, 'cause what's the point of a socially-awkward virgin if you can't cheat on her with another socially-awkward virgin and then watch the both of them shuffle nervously and beg for your affection in the third game?

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:25 .


#410
Dean_the_Young

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Let it never be said that Bioware's views on gender relations was the best in ME2.

#411
Xalen

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ALRIGHT I'M BACK AT 4 AM SLEEP IS FOR THE WEAK

@Sshodan

nitpicking wall of text ahoy

Logic in you argument is flawed.
Let's follow:
Premise 1. There should be other plot characters except Shepard
Premise 2. Equal number of plot characters on both sides
Premise 3. Plot characters' arcs should be related to the protagonist's arc
Premise 4. Number of plot characters should be about 4-6

Conclusion 1. We should have a plot character in our squad - valid, from P1 and P3.
Conclusion 2. We shouldn't make all plot characters into squadmates - valid, from P2 and P4
Conclusion 3. We shouldn't make all squadmates into plot characters - valid, from P2 and P4

note: in above statements the "all" constraint taken verbatim from your post

Conclusion 4. "Having one plot char is a good compromise" - ...insufficient data.

Having some (for ex.,3 or hell, at least 2) of plot characters as squadmates and by extension having some squadmates as plot characters is a "compromise" (from C1-C3).

I fully accept your premises (well, P2 is somewhat arguable, but whatever). And while I could accept C4 on its own merits, it doesn't really follow from you argument :)

Now, if I take into account another your premise which is based on rather subjective motivation - "yet you do not have to tolerate more than one char that can't be properly ignored." (subjective because it's not based on logic and/or at least common sense, since 1) many people may like the character in question and don't want to ignore him/her, 2) other people tend not to like anything "forced" on them, even if it's only one character, thus conclusion based on this premise will not be universally true), it makes more sense.
But it's not true that that character would be the only one we can't ignore. It wouldn't be even the only squadmate we can't ignore (mandatory squadmates, anyone?)
And honestly, I'd rather have 3 characters have high plot relevance because the chances that I will like at least one one of them are much higher than . If we have only one character with high plot relevance, and the player doesn't like him/her, he's stuck with this character all the time, but with N, N>1, characters the player can sometimes take a break from someone who annoys the crap out of him.

Another argument would be the ratio of plot points to plot characters, because really, even if we accept that Liara is the plot-relevant squadmate, some of the things she had done and was involved with could be attributed to other non-squadmate plot characters.

/end nerdwank. Yeah, I'm just really bored

You see, I can make a stand and ask: "Why Liara? Why not Tali? /*and for the record: I dislike Tali and Liara equally*/ Or Wrex? Or whoever? What's so special about Liara's personality /*not talking about her character arc here*/ that makes her the perfect plot advancement device?" But that would be a bit silly, of course. It's obvious why it's Liara *cough*seepostsabove*cough*
There are two things bother me personally most about Liara (aside from the whole "Second most powerful person in the Galaxy" thing - it seems, we won't agree on that):

1) It's old news, but her personality shift between ME1 and ME2. Before anyone says anything, I know it's justifiable, but it's justifiable post-factum. Nothing in ME1 suggests her development in that way. We just get a 2-year gap with giant neon sign "insert character development here". Let's do the plot-twist dance! It just seems so...arbitrary.
I'm sure Liara fans will disagree, and I actually welcome any comments on this point, because this is something I genuinely don't understand

2) Why is she plot-friends with Shepard? Regardless of his attitude towards her in ME1? It's one thing to put a character into MarySue-ish role and shove her into players face for "story reasons", but it's whole another matter when you are actually told how you protagonist should feel in a roleplaying game. It's never a good thing.

//insert obligatory apologetic "English isn't my first language" comment here, I can't write sh*t

#412
TheMarshal

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Not that I don't think Miranda would make a great Shadow Broker (or 'The Illusive Woman' as the Miranda thread calls her), she certainly would, but by making her such wouldn't you then be trading one plot-armored squaddie for another? I mean, Miranda's key enough to the plot of ME2 as it is, and you basically have to TRY to get her killed (have to take a non-loyal Miri to the final battle). Making her the Shadow Broker would mean that she couldn't die in ME2, which is what I thought you guys were trying to get away from? Immortal squaddies?

#413
Dean_the_Young

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TheMarshal wrote...

Not that I don't think Miranda would make a great Shadow Broker (or 'The Illusive Woman' as the Miranda thread calls her), she certainly would, but by making her such wouldn't you then be trading one plot-armored squaddie for another? I mean, Miranda's key enough to the plot of ME2 as it is, and you basically have to TRY to get her killed (have to take a non-loyal Miri to the final battle). Making her the Shadow Broker would mean that she couldn't die in ME2, which is what I thought you guys were trying to get away from? Immortal squaddies?

Since there's no reason you'd have to make Liara killable instead, Miranda simply becomes an additional character... but the problem isn't that there are plot-important characters who should survive, but rather that Liara keeps having the **** thrown on her repeatedly. If certain characters are important in a piece, that's not a problem.


You could always have it that Miranda won't die unless there's a total party wipeout on the suicide mission... in which case it's a non-canaonical suicide mission. While some people would be annoyed, these are more or less the same people who are already blocked from killing her unless they game the system.


That's ignoring that, if we're rewriting the Shadow Broker plot, we could also rewrite Miranda's involvement in the Suicide Mission. We could even have circumstances come up in which Miranda is removed for part of the game and so can't stay around for the suicide mission. Two different (but effectively identical in structure) possibilities could be a post-Loyalty conflict trigger (Miranda womans up, recognizes that she isn't trusted by the team/Jack and so leaves in order to improve team cohesion for Shepard), or a Derilect Reaper trigger (if Miranda hasn't already left, something comes up with the Derilect Reaper and so she leaves the team, maybe to research/study the IFF and Reaper salvage).

Miranda could then be a party member for most of the game... followed by an exit before the Suicide Mission. It would be unconventional, but not wrong, and the terms she leaves on (loyal, never loyal, sided with Jack) could shape the tone of your work with her in ME3.

For hypothetical example:

-If Shepard and Miranda parted on Loyal terms, the relationship is amicable. Miranda in ME3 is open to influence for later decisions regarding Cerberus, including possibly outright taking over/destroying the organization in the course of the war.

-If Shepard never earned Miranda's loyalty prior to her departure, their relationship is professional if not warm. She is not inclined towards acting against Cerberus, prefering to recover it. She won't help destroy Cerberus, but she won't oppose Shepard

-If Shepard sided with Jack, the relationship in ME3 is frigid if not hostile. Miranda in ME3 is only working with Shepard in order to save the galaxy, and to save Cerberus. An uneasy alliance at best.

#414
KawaiiKatie

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TheMarshal wrote...

Making [Miranda] the Shadow Broker would mean that she couldn't die in ME2, which is what I thought you guys were trying to get away from? Immortal squaddies?


Honestly, I have no real problem with immortal squadmates up to ME3, including Liara. But in the final game, everyone should be able to die, because galactic war implies huge sacrifices and no one character should be immune--even a character who has been immortal and un-killable over the course of the past two games.

My current issue with Liara's two-game immortality is that she is the only immortal character besides Joker. If more squadmates were un-killable, I'd be cutting Liara more slack. But the fact of the matter if that every single squadmate except Liara can bite the dust at some point. Even the Normandy crew can die. Even Chakwas can die. Even Shepard can die! Liara and Joker are the only two members of Shepard's team who never have to fear death--and let's face it, Liara enjoys a lot more content and screentime and plot-importance than Joker.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:11 .


#415
AngelicMachinery

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Making [Miranda] the Shadow Broker would mean that she couldn't die in ME2, which is what I thought you guys were trying to get away from? Immortal squaddies?


Honestly, I have no real problem with immortal squadmates up to ME3, including Liara. But in the final game, everyone should be able to die, because galactic war implies huge sacrifices and no one character should be immune--even a character who has been immortal and un-killable over the course of the past two games.

My current issue with Liara's two-game immortality is that she is the only immortal character besides Joker. If more squadmates were un-killable, I'd be cutting Liara more slack. But the fact of the matter if that every single squadmate except Liara can bite the dust at some point. Even the Normandy crew can die. Even Chakwas can die. Even Shepard can die! Liara and Joker are the only two members of Shepard's team who never have to fear death--and let's face it, Liara enjoys a lot more content and screentime and plot-importance than Joker.


I still say the VS is immortal,  sure,  you can kill Kaidan or Ashley but the choice of their death is left solely in your hands. Afterwards they themselves have gained their own level of invincibility.  Technically speaking,  Kaidan or Ashley are the only characters that have to die.  Everyone else dies out of sheer laziness.

#416
marshalleck

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Joker can get chowed by a scion during the ambush, doesn't that count as a potential death? Liara doesn't even get that.

She's the biggest Mary Sue ever. The toilet bowl drain the entire plot of the game is swirling around. Etc. etc.

#417
Homebound

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i dont get whats so bad about Liara...She has enough dissonance to create an intrigueing character. Sure some may say she's a Mary Sue, but she's also now taken the title of most ruthless information broker the galaxy has ever seen. Shes like James Bond from my point of view.

#418
Seboist

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marshalleck wrote...

Joker can get chowed by a scion during the ambush, doesn't that count as a potential death? Liara doesn't even get that.

She's the biggest Mary Sue ever. The toilet bowl drain the entire plot of the game is swirling around. Etc. etc.


He can get killed by a Praetorian too. :happy:

#419
KawaiiKatie

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

I still say the VS is immortal,  sure,  you can kill Kaidan or Ashley but the choice of their death is left solely in your hands. Afterwards they themselves have gained their own level of invincibility.  Technically speaking,  Kaidan or Ashley are the only characters that have to die.  Everyone else dies out of sheer laziness.


True enough, though I wouldn't say that the ME2 characters die ONLY because of laziness. They can also die because of poor decisions, no matter how logical they seem at the time; for example, Jacob's loyalty power "Barrier" suggests that he might be a good choice for the Biotic Expert, but just try it and see how well that works out. :lol:

The same level of "immortality" is granted Wrex, after his brush with death as well, but neither he nor the Virmire Survivor are granted to same large role or attention that Liara has thus far received, and it's because they can die at some point. Bioware's focus on Liara may or may not stem from the player's inability to kill her.... and the player's inability to kill her may or may not stem from Bioware's focus on Liara.

I'm eager to see if the Virmire Survivor will play a huge role in ME3, or if he/she will be given the "Carver/Bethany" treatment, quickly shuffled aside for the "garunteed to be alive" characters like Liara and James Vega. I'll also be interested to see if the Virmire Survivor's romance (or any of the ME2 romances) will be able to compete with Liara's romantic content in ME3, plus her DLC.

#420
marshalleck

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

I'm eager to see if the Virmire Survivor will play a huge role in ME3, or if he/she will be given the "Carver/Bethany" treatment, quickly shuffled aside for the "garunteed to be alive" characters like Liara and James Vega. I'll also be interested to see if the Virmire Survivor's romance (or any of the ME2 romances) will be able to compete with Liara's romantic content in ME3, plus her DLC.


That will probably not be the case, considering Liara is basically the one correct canon romance. ;)

#421
KawaiiKatie

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marshalleck wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I'm eager to see if the Virmire Survivor will play a huge role in ME3, or if he/she will be given the "Carver/Bethany" treatment, quickly shuffled aside for the "garunteed to be alive" characters like Liara and James Vega. I'll also be interested to see if the Virmire Survivor's romance (or any of the ME2 romances) will be able to compete with Liara's romantic content in ME3, plus her DLC.


That will probably not be the case, considering Liara is basically the one correct canon romance. ;)


Image IPB

#422
AngelicMachinery

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I would argue that Wrex is a little different than the VS.

Wrex can die, it is rare that it occurs but unless you have either done his armor quest or achieved the right level of paragon/renegade there is no way to prevent wrex from leaving the game. The VS on the other hand does have immunity from death, one of them dies, but in doing so they've insured that the other will survive. There is no way to lose both Ashley and Kaidan (which is probably why the aren't involved in ME2 to provide the surviving alliance character invulnerability so they can take part in ME3)

I won't argue about the Lair of the Shadow Broker, that is admittedly one sided. If they were going to release DLC for one survivor they should have done so for the other. Alas, this didn't come to be. I could make excuses and say that Kaidan/Ash working for the alliance would make it difficult to put them and Shepard in the same scenario but that's just me pulling theories out of the air.

Truth be told I would have prefered Liara involved in ME2 over what we have now, but, that would probably be favoritism in the eyes of some as she would be the only character that would be romancable in both stories.

#423
SirGladiator

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Liara is so awesome, that's why she plays such a major role. She's incredibly beautiful, her voice is awesome, she's got an awesome personality, and she's brilliant,, which is why she's so important in terms of the plot. Its true that she doesnt die like the others, but so what? Who would want Liara to die? She's too awesome :) . She really is by far the best romance in the game, obviously the fact that its the only one that carries over well from ME1 to ME2, but still, she's just so awesome. I wouldnt mind if she always lived in ME3 also, but Im sure it will be possible for her to die at some point in ME3, especially because the possibility of Liara dying would motivate people to make REALLY tough decisions to save her, whatever it takes!

#424
KawaiiKatie

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

Truth be told I would have prefered Liara involved in ME2 over what we have now, but, that would probably be favoritism in the eyes of some as she would be the only character that would be romancable in both stories.


Well, yeah, I think most Liara fans would've prefered to have their blue snuggle-bunny onboard the Normandy instead of a comic and a DLC. But don't complain about what you have, because it's a heck of a lot better than what the Virmire Survivor fans got: an impartial hug and a tongue-lashing.

But Liara's garunteed to be by your side in ME3, at least. I'm worried about Kaidan and Ash. Will Bioware give them half the amount of content because they could be dead? Will they disappear midway through the story like Carver and Bethany in DA2? Will they even be glad to see Shepard again? The possibilities really worry me, though I imagine that Liara fans are sitting quite comfortably on their knowledge that Liara is super-important to the plot and garunteed lots of screentime.

#425
AngelicMachinery

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Truth be told I would have prefered Liara involved in ME2 over what we have now, but, that would probably be favoritism in the eyes of some as she would be the only character that would be romancable in both stories.


Well, yeah, I think most Liara fans would've prefered to have their blue snuggle-bunny onboard the Normandy instead of a comic and a DLC. But don't complain about what you have, because it's a heck of a lot better than what the Virmire Survivor fans got: an impartial hug and a tongue-lashing.

But Liara's garunteed to be by your side in ME3, at least. I'm worried about Kaidan and Ash. Will Bioware give them half the amount of content because they could be dead? Will they disappear midway through the story like Carver and Bethany in DA2? Will they even be glad to see Shepard again? The possibilities really worry me, though I imagine that Liara fans are sitting quite comfortably on their knowledge that Liara is super-important to the plot and garunteed lots of screentime.


I'm not complaining,  I was simply voicing my opinion.  I'll take what I'm given.

I don't think you should be nervous that they are going to be kicked to the curb,  Ash or Kaidan are designed to survive. Ash and Kaidan aren't,  but,  one of them was meant to live through to ME3,  which is why they don't take part in the suicide mission.  If they were meant to be tossed out with the bath water they would have been put in the suicide mission with the others.

Garrus and Tali fans are the ones who may need to worry,  there is nothing insuring their particular survival.  As for Kaidan and Ash's reception of Shepard I suspect that it will be rocky in the beginning but,  it should get to a happy place once again.