905 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

Why do I have to be nice to Joker, he killed me?

[ladyvader]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

You can talk to Miranda about some of the ME1 missions relating to Cerberus. She makes excuses for the Creepers, Rachni and Jack. I wanted to talk about Kahoku but there was there was no option to.

Pffft, you know Miranda would've had some excuse handy. "Kahoku was going to blow up our facility! We would have lost years of unethical research! What's more acceptable, the death of one man, or the loss of twenty scientists and invaluable research?"

"Uh-huh. Not buying it. You guys are murderers. And speaking of which, um, YOU DROPPED A THRESHER MAW ON MY FACE."

"That was research, Commander! The tests we ran on Toombs gave us so much information! Your squad died to save hundreds of lives!"

"Yeah, I don't remember volunteering for any of that."

"But still, doesn't it make you feel better knowing that we used that data for good?"

"...strangely, no."

If they had that type of exchange between Miranda and even a paragon Shep with any background, her last comment is punch in the face worthy.

[KawaiiKatie]

TheMarshal wrote...

Kawaii - Do you feel there is a character who could have been the one to recover Shepard's corpse? The arguments I've seen you throw out was that it was unreasonable for Liara to go after your Shep's corpse because how how you treated her. But the same could be said about any of the ME1 characters, right?

I think that the characters most suited to go after Shepard's corpse were the people who we thought recovered Shepard's corpse: Cerberus.

Ceberus (or, if we're going to single out one character, Miranda) hunts for Shepard's corpse for impartial, impersonal reasons, regardless of Shepard's actions. Though Miranda can come to care for Shepard over the course of ME2, she did not hunt for Shepard's corpse for the (possibly irrational) personal reasons that Liara did.

I think I did mention that I would have felt that way about any ME1 character.

.....actually, yeah! Here's what I said when this was brought up earlier on this thread:

KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I have a question for you.  What if Ashley somehow miraclously stumbled upon Shepard's corpse and perhaps in a moment of weakness she provided her corpse to TIM in hopes of a resurection.  Would this be bad?  Or would this be "Romantic."

Honestly, I hate that it was left to any one character to find Shepards body and deliver it to TIM. When Cerberus  was searching for Shepard's body, they were doing so impartially, not because of an emotional connection. But Liara did it because she "couldn't let Shepard go," even though Shepard wasn't necessarily her friend in ME1. If Shepard was Liara's lover, it kind of makes sense for Liara to go hunting for Shepard's body, but if you were a jackass who yelled at Liara like I did, the fact that she scoured the galaxy in hopes of bringing you back to life screams stalker. And it creeps me out.

This would be true of any character.If Ash went around the galaxy hunting for Shepard's body even though Shepard spent most of the game yelling, "You're a racist and your religion is stupid!" then, yeah, I'd be just as creeped out.

So, yes, if any ME1 character with a personal attachment to Shepard had gone searching for his/her corpse, I'd be crying "stalker!"

But as it stands, Liara is the one keeping Shepard-related trinkets on display in her apartment and Liara is the one who stalked me after I died.... so she's the one I'm quirking an eyebrow at.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

And Liara's also the one hiding your dogtags unless you get buddy-buddy.

Asari have always been cunning.

[ladyvader]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Why do I have to be nice to Joker, he killed me?

The more I play the opening scene the more I think Shep getting spaced is partly on Shep.  About 10%, the rest is on Joker for not leaving when the order was given.  Shep does let go of the door when looking back after Joker gets into the escape pod.  Then the explosion happens.  If Shep had just gotten in the pod, right after Joker did, Shep wouldn't have been spaced.  My view anyway.  It's mostly on Joker, but Shep is partly to blame too.

Modifié par ladyvader, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

You can talk to Miranda about some of the ME1 missions relating to Cerberus. She makes excuses for the Creepers, Rachni and Jack. I wanted to talk about Kahoku but there was there was no option to.

Pffft, you know Miranda would've had some excuse handy. "Kahoku was going to blow up our facility! We would have lost years of unethical research! What's more acceptable, the death of one man, or the loss of twenty scientists and invaluable research?"

"Uh-huh. Not buying it. You guys are murderers. And speaking of which, um, YOU DROPPED A THRESHER MAW ON MY FACE."

"That was research, Commander! The tests we ran on Toombs gave us so much information! Your squad died to save hundreds of lives!"

"Yeah, I don't remember volunteering for any of that."

"But still, doesn't it make you feel better knowing that we used that data for good?"

"...strangely, no."

How about this:

"Commander, did you know that the protype for medigel is a derivative of Thresher Maw acid?"

[KawaiiKatie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And Liara's also the one hiding your dogtags unless you get buddy-buddy.

Asari have always been cunning.

This... I can't view that scene where I turn down Liara for drinks (no, Liara, I will never be your friend) and not assume that she's thinking, "Well, he may not like me... but at least I still have his things! Teehee! I'll keep the dogtags under my pillow for good luck, and spoon with his old armour when I get lonely!"

[TheMarshal]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Kawaii - Do you feel there is a character who could have been the one to recover Shepard's corpse? The arguments I've seen you throw out was that it was unreasonable for Liara to go after your Shep's corpse because how how you treated her. But the same could be said about any of the ME1 characters, right?

I think that the characters most suited to go after Shepard's corpse were the people who we thought recovered Shepard's corpse: Cerberus.

Ceberus (or, if we're going to single out one character, Miranda) hunts for Shepard's corpse for impartial, impersonal reasons, regardless of Shepard's actions. Though Miranda can come to care for Shepard over the course of ME2, she did not hunt for Shepard's corpse for the (possibly irrational) personal reasons that Liara did.

I think I did mention that I would have felt that way about any ME1 character.

.....actually, yeah! Here's what I said when this was brought up earlier on this thread:

*snip*

So, yes, if any ME1 character with a personal attachment to Shepard had gone searching for his/her corpse, I'd be crying "stalker!"

But as it stands, Liara is the one keeping Shepard-related trinkets on display in her apartment and Liara is the one who stalked me after I died.... so she's the one I'm quirking an eyebrow at.

Ah, my bad.  I seem to remember you cheerleading the idea of team dextro going after your corpse.  It could have been a joke; sarcasm can sound rather...  off in these threads.

[KawaiiKatie]

TheMarshal wrote...

Ah, my bad.  I seem to remember you cheerleading the idea of team dextro going after your corpse.  It could have been a joke; sarcasm can sound rather...  off in these threads.

Yeah... I do think that, theoretically, the adventure of Tali and Garrus teaming up to search the galaxy, overcoming their animosity for one another through their mutual respect for Shepard would've made an interesting story (at least, more intersting than the story about Liara and her bad-boy, rainbow Drell crush) but I realize that all of that is contingent on Shepard's actions. What if Shepard never recruited Garrus or Tali? Giving the player the ability to make those kinds of choices imposes certain restrictions on the story as a whole, and I get that.

What angers me about Liara is that Bioware outright ignores these restrictions when it comes to Liara. They gave me the option to be callous towards Liara in ME1, but completely took that away with ME2 and the LotSB DLC. Liara hunting for Shepard's corpse makes about as much sense in my story as an unrecruited Tali and Garrus teaming up in someone else's story.

Bioware either doesn't realize that they've made Liara into a stalker in my canon (or any canon where Shepard was a jerk to her in ME1) or they don't want to admit it. I'm not sure which is worse.

[Quething]

TheMarshal wrote...

Kawaii - Do you feel there is a character who could have been the one to recover Shepard's corpse? The arguments I've seen you throw out was that it was unreasonable for Liara to go after your Shep's corpse because how how you treated her. But the same could be said about any of the ME1 characters, right?

It was supposed to be Legion originially, wasn't it? But they nixed that because they thought it would confuse or turn people off to spend the first hour of the game with the geth, or something along those lines. He is a stalkerbot who sewed your old armor to his "skin" all Manon des Sources-style, after all. It would actually make sense for him.

The thing to remember about Liara, I think, is that Liara fans were as badly burned by ME2-as-shipped as VS fans. She does this insane, radical personality shift into something diametrically opposed to what had attracted most people to her, going from sweet, forgiving, virginal nerd who's totally fixated on Shepard to callous, homicidal vengeance nut who sees you as an errand boy. Her writing on Illium feels very similar to the writing on Horizon in terms of "this seems suspiciously like it's deliberately calculated to make me hate this LI and encourage me to move on to one of the new characters." And in ME1, she always felt very much like a secondary romance option, because if you look at that game as a standalone, it's the human romance option who's integrated into the plot. The Virmire choice means a lot less if you're romancing Liara, to almost the same extent that, for example, confronting Bastila on the Star Forge means a lot less if you're romancing Carth. If you're looking for the "canon" LI in ME1, it's gotta be the one that changes the story the most.

Why choose her for the comic and the role of Shepard's "savior," in that case? Well, it had to be a character fans were familiar with and invested in, which means one of the ME1 squad. It had to be a character who was guaranteed to survive ME1, which means no Ash, Kaidan or Wrex. It had to be a character who was guaranteed to know Shepard, which means no Garrus. That leaves Tali and Liara, and Liara was the one with no job or life prospects once ME1 was over, so what did she have better to do?

It wasn't until LotSB came out, with its expansive banter and cinematic kisses and character redemption and fabulously-written date (and, of course, with its assignment of Liara to an incredibly powerful key role in the ME universe), that Liara suddenly became the best-written and most integral LI across both games. It seems to me that, actually, the reason Liara is so important now is an accidental result of her being so unimportant previously - they didn't care about her love story enough to give it a story-shaping Virmire moment, they didn't care about her characterization when she fit the other requirements for "Shepard's savior," they didn't care about her fanbase when they made her a completely different person on Illium. And then one day they looked around and realized "hey, we have this character who's alive in every game, who we can use in an important role in ME3," and they read all the fan feedback about all the character interaction issues in ME2 and how annoyed Liara fans were about what had been done to her, and they made LotSB, and now here we are.

I mean, it obviously was some seriously crappy story direction to force you into a friendship with her in LotSB, and to force you to hug her in ME2. But as the complaints about Joker and Cerberus and Garrus that keep saturating this thread prove, that's hardly unique to Liara. As someone who's not a huge Liara fan (I like her, but I like her the way I like bread, not the way I like cake, if that makes sense), and who is a huge fan of badly neglected characters like Ash and Kaidan, I would really like to see some of the story prominence and BioWare love that Liara currently has get spread out a little, sure. But I don't really begrudge Liara what she's got now, because I don't think she's the favorite son. I think she's the runt that lucked out.

[KawaiiKatie]

@Quething

I think I understand your side of the argument, but I just can't agree with it. As a standalone game, Liara was just as "integrated" into the plot as Ash or Kaidan, given her ties to Benezia, the Protheans, and the Cypher. I disagree that her romance, in the first game, was "secondary" to Ash or Kaidan.

I'm also inclined to disagree that Liara fans were just as "burned" as Ash and Kaidan fans when it came to that initial play-through of ME2. At least you got to visit Liara whenever you wanted! Yes, both she and the Virmire Survivor were cold towards Shepard, and the lack of dialogue choices were frustrating... but I know that staring at Kaidan's portrait gave me a lot of comfort. I can only imagine how comforting it would've been to visit him any time the fancy stuck me. I can only imagine how nice it would have been to hear him say, "Shepard... it's good to see you again." I would have been annoyed by my lack of dialogue choices, yes, but actually visiting Kaidan would've meant the world to me. I wonder if Liara fans take that ability for granted.

And because Liara was so "important" in ME1, and then instrumental in recovering Shepard, and now the Shadow Broker, she definitely feels like the "favourite son" to me. If you viewed Liara as unimportant in ME1, I can see how you'd view her as "the run that lucked out," but I just don't see it that way.

[kumquats]

I think angry Liara on Illium is kind a hot, I want to Rivalmance her.
Horizon just feels like an insult.
The way I see it, BW did listen a lot to what the fans want so far. (combat-skill-system, deeper relationships etc.)
There is no doubt in my mind that the VS 'fans' are in for a treat in ME3.

We don't even know what they have been up to in the last two years, there will be a lot to talk about.

[The Twilight God]

Neria Rose wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

I know you feel this, Neria Rose.

Why do you fight the inevitable?

We are the harbingers of your roleplaying experience!!!!

No no noooooooooo!!!

Twilight God: Rudimentary creatures of console and PC, you try to roleplay your Shepard, fumbling in ignorance to figure out which bad paraphrase will say what you actual want to hear, incapable realizing your ideal Shepard.

There is a realm of set in stone character developement so far beyond your personal preference, you can't even see it coming. The will of the writters supercedes your Shepard's choices. I am Twilight God.

Neria Rose: Twilight God isn't just some Liara fanboy, he's the actual Canon.

Twilight God: Canon. A concept intorduced by players to give voice to their roleplaying frustrations. In the end, what they chose to call the futility of their companion interaction choices is irrelevent. We simple are.

[Neria Rose]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And Liara's also the one hiding your dogtags unless you get buddy-buddy.

Asari have always been cunning.

This... I can't view that scene where I turn down Liara for drinks (no, Liara, I will never be your friend) and not assume that she's thinking, "Well, he may not like me... but at least I still have his things! Teehee! I'll keep the dogtags under my pillow for good luck, and spoon with his old armour when I get lonely!"

That image will forever be stuck in my head. And in my games.. replace ManShep with FemShep and it's totally what happened behind the scenes.

[The Twilight God]

ladyvader wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

kumquats wrote...

Everyone should make one playthrough as a xenophobic femShep with a Colonist/Sole Survivor background who romanced Kaidan.

- You have the forced friendship with Liara
- You have to flirt with Jacob
- You will always look sad, blowing up 300 000 Batarians
- You have to work with Cerberus AND NEVER QUESTION WHAT THEY DID ON AKUZE
- Horizon <-

If you RP it right, it will be the worst ME experience ever. Enjoy.

This makes me sad on so many levels.

Added a bit to the Cerberus one. Seriously, Bioware, you couldn't even have thrown Sole Survivor Sheps a bone on that one?

I agree there.  Shep never mentions it or any of the crap Cerberus did in ME1.  

Tela Vasir points it out to him and he just takes it like a lil biotch. No comeback. No explaination. Just "Cerberus is cool" or "It's not the same".

Vasir: Cerberus are a bunch of terrorists. They killed your whole unit and now you're working with them. Don't judge me you hypocrite mother****ah.

Shep: It's not the same?

Vasir: How so?

Shep: It's just not.

Vasir: Yeah... like I said, it's the same.. .*cough* ...you lil biotch <dies>

Shep: Wait! I meant to say there is a threat to all life in the gal..... ah, crap.

Liara: She sure made you look like a lil punk.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 14 juillet 2011 - 09:32 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Neria Rose wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

This... I can't view that scene where I turn down Liara for drinks (no, Liara, I will never be your friend) and not assume that she's thinking, "Well, he may not like me... but at least I still have his things! Teehee! I'll keep the dogtags under my pillow for good luck, and spoon with his old armour when I get lonely!"

That image will forever be stuck in my head. And in my games.. replace ManShep with FemShep and it's totally what happened behind the scenes.

Bioware must have realized what a creepy stalker they made Liara look like (is some games) with LotSB. I wonder if they'll address it at all in ME3, because the transfer file should note how you treated Liara at the end of LotSB. Or perhaps if if they'll just continue to blithely ignore any negative treatment of Liara, and come ME3 she'll be all, "Hey Shepard, remember those drinks we shared? We should do that again! I didn't imagine it! Why are you running away? Come back!"

[Lozark]

Yeah, if that happens then at that point I'd start worrying that Liara's planning on killing Shep and wearing her/his skin around like a suit. Like a psychotic version of Conrad.

[Quething]

mrsph wrote...

I was pretty weirded out that Liara kept my armor.

I would have been more weirded out if that actually were my armor, and not some completely random other Alliance shmuck's. I mean, really, Liara, you're bloody brilliant enough to take over for the Shadow Broker, but you can't tell male Heavy Onyx from female Medium? They don't look remotely the same. At least Legion has the excuse that he never fought side-by-side with me in person when I was wearing the clearly-not-default-soldier!Sheploo-armor.

Modifié par Quething, 14 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Quething wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I was pretty weirded out that Liara kept my armor.

I would have been more weirded out if that actually were my armor, and not some completely random other Alliance shmuck's. I mean, really, Liara, you're bloody brilliant enough to take over for the Shadow Broker, but you can't tell male Heavy Onyx from female Medium? They don't look remotely the same. At least Legion has the excuse that he never fought side-by-side with me in person when I was wearing the clearly-not-default-soldier!Sheploo-armor.

To be fair, the armour Liara has on display could very easily be the armour you died in at the beginning of ME2, regardless of gender. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Eww... the thought of Liara prying the armour of of my twisted, rotting corpse and thinking, "This'll look GREAT in my living room!" ....

....what were you thinking, Bioware?

[Quething]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

To be fair, the armour Liara has on display could very easily be the armour you died in at the beginning of ME2, regardless of gender. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Nah, it's too broad and square across the back to be female Onyx. I have no comparison screencaps on me on this computer, but I did make a point of checking, when I saw it, with flycam and everything, because I was vaguely annoyed by Legion wearing male Heavy already and I had a strong suspicion that they'd do it again, and sure enough, it's definitely male soldier armor.

Which, really, is reason enough by itself for them not to have put it there, even completely absent the creep factor.

[The Twilight God]

Quething wrote...

Nah, it's too broad and square across the back to be female Onyx.

Female Shepard...

...We have dismissed that claim...

...she is not canon.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 14 juillet 2011 - 10:37 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Quething wrote...

Which, really, is reason enough by itself for them not to have put it there, even completely absent the creep factor.

Agreed. I thought that finding Shepard's helmet was a little weird (I was thinking, "Eww, I'm not going to find bits of my old SKULL in there, am I?") but at least they kept it gender-neutral. To be honest, Legion's armour never really bothered me because I thought that the armband and logo were small enough to be vague... but I agree that that was a detail that Bioware could've skipped for Liara, creep factor and all.

mrsph wrote...

Liara and Legion probably fought over it.

"Let go, you stupid robot! All I need is an arm and some toenail clippings, and Shepard will be ready for our DATE!"

[Neria Rose]

The Twilight God wrote...

Twilight God: Rudimentary creatures of console and PC, you try to roleplay your Shepard, fumbling in ignorance to figure out which bad paraphrase will say what you actual want to hear, incapable realizing your ideal Shepard.

There is a realm of set in stone character developement so far beyond your personal preference, you can't even see it coming. The will of the writters supercedes your Shepard's choices. I am Twilight God.

Neria Rose: Twilight God isn't just some Liara fanboy, he's the actual Canon.

Twilight God: Canon. A concept intorduced by players to give voice to their roleplaying frustrations. In the end, what they chose to call the futility of their companion interaction choices is irrelevent. We simple are.

...

...

...

...

...

I hear and obey.