905 réponses à ce sujet

[KawaiiKatie]

Roxy12 wrote...

Garrus' forced friendship is is at least as bad as Liara's. Try to roleplay a Shepard who doesn't like Garrus! You can ignore him (like Liara), or you're his best friend. I am unable to roleplay here.

I have tried it, and you're wrong. If you didn't recruit Garrus in ME1, Garrus never says, "Just like old times," the way he does with a Shepard he's familiar with. Additionally, you can be a jerk to Garrus by refusing to help him with Sidonis, or if you do help him, you can be a jerk to him about it and blame him for the death of his men and chastize him for letting things get "personal."

I also don't recall ever being forced to hug Garrus or Tali or Wrex or Ashley the way I was forced to hug Liara.

Furthermore, Garrus' "forced" friendship never imposes itself on the plot. Bioware didn't write a story about Garrus going off to find Shepard's corpse because they realized that such a thing wouldn't make sense for everyone. They took that restriction into consideration. The same restriction applies to Liara (her search for my Shepard's corpse, in the context of my story, makes NO sense at best, or makes her a stalker at worst) but Bioware ignored it in favour of producing a comic that was seventy-five percent blue buttshots.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 19 juillet 2011 - 05:54 .

[Asari_Party]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
I have tried it, and you're wrong. If you didn't recruit Garrus in ME1, Garrus never says, "Just like old times," the way he does with a Shepard he's familiar with. Additionally, you can be a jerk to Garrus by refusing to help him with Sidonis, or if you do help him, you can be a jerk to him about it and blame him for the death of his men and chastize him for letting things get "personal."

I also don't recall ever being forced to hug Garrus or Tali or Wrex or Ashley the way I was forced to hug Liara.

The difference between recruiting and not recruiting Garrus is only a couple of lines.  That's it.

And you can be a jerk to Liara by refusing to help her with her hacking quest, or if you do help her, you can be a jerk to her and blame her for helping cerberus.

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Furthermore, Garrus' "forced" friendship never imposes itself on the plot. Bioware didn't write a story about Garrus going off to find Shepard's corpse because they realized that such a thing wouldn't make sense for everyone. They took that restriction into consideration. The same restriction applies to Liara (her search for my Shepard's corpse, in the context of my story, makes NO sense at best, or makes her a stalker at worst) but Bioware ignored it in favour of producing a comic that was seventy-five percent blue buttshots.

Again - read the comics or stop spreading half-informed knowledge.

[KawaiiKatie]

You're ignoring my central complaint: Bioware ignores the restrictions imposed on Liara by the fact that there "is no canon" way to play the game. This is a serious problem with Liara's character, and an overall disservice to the story at large. Saying that this happens to other characters at a lesser degree doesn't excuse Bioware's treatment of Liara.

Garrus' "forced" friendship and Wrex "forced" buddy-buddy act on Tuchanka never impose themselves on the plot. These are arguable oversights, and easily ignored. But Liara's imposition refuses to be ignored. In the context of my game, she is an extremely frightening stalker freak, and Bioware's refusal to address her as anything but Shepard's best friend is a huge detriment to the story.

[CrookedAsylum]

Whether or not Liara's friendship was imposed isn't the issue. The issue is that she got as much attention as she did when other characters were left to the dust. That's it. I like Liara, but if cutting out some of her content meant that I could get some more screen time with the other characters, I would've been happy with it. Particularly the VS, who was pissed on.

[Asari_Party]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

You're ignoring my central complaint: Bioware ignores the restrictions imposed on Liara by the fact that there "is no canon" way to play the game. This is a serious problem with Liara's character, and an overall disservice to the story at large. Saying that this happens to other characters at a lesser degree doesn't excuse Bioware's treatment of Liara.

You want canon?

Did you save her life on Therum? Yes or No? There is her motivation, even if you wasn't her best friend in Mass Effect 1.

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Garrus' "forced" friendship and Wrex "forced" buddy-buddy act on Tuchanka never impose themselves on the plot.

I don't know about you, but I am forced to recruited Garrus. I admit, Tuchanka is optional (like Illium).

Modifié par Roxy12, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:24 .

[Neria Rose]

Roxy12 wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Regarding the last sentence in your post, kindly provide definitive proof (like a Bioware dev quote, etc.) that Cerberus would have been unable to retrieve Shepard's body without Liara. I find it pretty difficult to swallow that an organization that can pull together the funds to bring someone back to life would be unable to get their hands on the body in the first place without one specific Asari.

Read the redemption comics or a story summary (it's really not too hard to find). The Illusive Man explained it to Liara.

Here we go: http://masseffect.wi...ect:_Redemption

Quoted from there (I don't find any Wiki particularly credible, but you did say to look up a story summary and you didn't say which one):

**Miranda brings Liara to the Illusive Man, who tells Liara that the Collectors
want the corpse, and have hired the Shadow Broker to give it to them.
The Illusive Man wants Liara to find out why the Collectors want
Shepard's body, and to get it before they do. Liara wonders why he chose
her, and the Illusive Man tells her that "nothing beats someone with a
personal motive driving them". Liara does not trust Cerberus or the
Illusive Man, but tells him that Shepard can count on her.**


Please please please tell me TIM saying "nothing beats someone with a personal motive driving them" isn't the only reason some Liara fans claim TIM couldn't have gotten Shepard's body without Liara. Because I really don't see how that equates to "you are our only option."

*gag* Ugh, reading that paragraph, it just reminds me of the whole 'I'm going to find the body of a person who couldn't stand me because I can't let them go!' bit. Did Liara really say "Shepard can count on me"? Why did I read that.. I need some brain bleach. I didn't think I could dislike the character any more. I need to step away, I'm starting to feel a hint of doubt toward Bioware and I've loved their games for too many years to let that develop further.

[Ophiskc]

KawaiiKatie you have the choice to quit completely any kind of friendship with Liara in Lotsb; i cant recall any other character wheel option that let u do just that as blunt as with her. To the rest always had been that even when u act like an idiot they stay all budy-budy nevertheless.
And btw Lotsb is totally optional to make, if u hated Liara so much you shouldnt have played it in the first place, as others who dont like Kasumi or Zaeed did

You had been whining all this thread like a gay men who is allergic to woman, but who keep the friendship to Liara because you just LOVE to hate her, even when u have an option, and invent ridiculous excuses for that decision.
That, and your inability to listen makes you a hater and a troll, this thread is not even a discusion anymore, every post is just for you to have an opening to bash and hate.

My femshep shivers how BW push Kaidan and Jacob on her every conversation, but i dont go to spread hate for them around the forum, like you do, in any thread that have the word Liara or Asari on them. That is what makes the difference between a hater troll and a normal person

[KawaiiKatie]

Roxy12 wrote...

I don't know about you, but I am forced to recruited Garrus.

Again, saying that these minor "forced" interactions happens to other characters does not excuse Liara.

Yes, you're forced to recruit Garrus. But that's it! After that, your inattention to Garrus or your animosity towards him can get him killed. His friendship isn't a centeral plot point like Liara's that pushes the story forward and nor is it completely unavoidable.

And even if I did rescue her on Therum, that doesn't explain why she decided to keep my armour of display and it absolutely does not excuse her choice ot keep my dogtags, after Hackett explictitly told her to return them to me.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:50 .

[kumquats]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Whether or not Liara's friendship was imposed isn't the issue. The issue is that she got as much attention as she did when other characters were left to the dust. That's it. I like Liara, but if cutting out some of her content meant that I could get some more screen time with the other characters, I would've been happy with it. Particularly the VS, who was pissed on.

That's about the only thing I can understand.
Horizon should have had more dialogue options, but I always thought they added this cameo in the last second. Like it was never planed.

A VS DLC would have been nice and yet I think there will be a reason BW holds them back for ME3.

I can only say, I never disliked Cerberus, because of my Sole Survivor background, I never disliked Jacob because of my femShep and I never disliked Kaidan or my Shepard for Horizon.
But that's something everyone should decide for themself.
I just enjoy the game, even if I can't RPG everything I want.

[Edit]

Neria Rose wrote...

Please please please tell me
TIM saying "nothing beats someone with a personal motive driving them"
isn't the only reason some Liara fans claim TIM couldn't have gotten
Shepard's body without Liara. Because I really don't see how that
equates to "you are our only option."

No it's not, it's just an added reason for the main problem.
Just imagin two big companys fighting for dominance.
Both want the same thing for different reasons. Yet they don't want to provoce an open conflict.
That's why they choose someone who works for Cerberus and secretly for the TIM and someone with a personal agenda.

It was a choice between starting an open war with your competiton or sending two people who are expandable.
If Liara and Feron would have failt, I think TIM would have send his own troops as a Plan B.

Remember who gets blamed for the whole Shepard thing. Liara and Feron. NOT Cerberus.

Modifié par kumquats, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:41 .

[Asari_Party]

This is my last post in this thread because it is a waste of time. You hate Liara, I get it.

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Again, saying that these minor "forced" interaction shappens to other characters does not excuse Liara.

Yes, you're forced to recruit Garrus. But that's it! After that, your inattention to Garrus or your animosity towards him can get him killed. His friendship isn't a centeral plot point like Liara's that pushes the story forward and is completely unavoidable.

Liara is completely avoidable in Mass Effect 2.

You can ignore her - Yes, you will lose people
You can ignore Garrus (or Tali) - You will lose people too (no Thannix canon, shields)

KawaiiKatie wrote...
And even if I did rescue her on Therum, that doesn't explain why she decided to keep my armour of display and it absolutely does not excuse her choice ot keep my dogtags, after Hackett explictitly told her to return them to me.

You save her life and she is not allowed to be grateful? Okay
She keeps things from her past. Her doctorate, the prothean stuff, Shepards armor. I think it's save to assume that saving the galaxy was an important part of her life.

And the dogtag thing is a very silly argument. What if you invite Liara later? She gives you the dogtags twice?

[KawaiiKatie]

Roxy12 wrote...

Liara is completely avoidable in Mass Effect 2.

Not my point. Yes, I'm annoyed that Liara is unavoidable if you want Samara or Thane, but I'm more annoyed that her friendship or idol worship of Shepard is an unavoidable part of the story. Regardless of your choice to visit Liara in ME2 or play LotSB, Liara was still the one who found your corpse, because apparently she loves you no matter what you do.

And the dogtag thing is a very silly argument. What if you invite Liara later? She gives you the dogtags twice?

It's not a silly argument, it's a huge oversight on behalf of the writers. Liara either gives you the dogtags when you invite her up for drinks, or she keeps them because you rejected her. The former is a nice gesture from a friend, the latter is a creepy, creepy implication that Liara is an obsessive fangirl. If both are supposed to be legitimate ways to play the game, why is the "friendship" route the only option that is addressed in-game?

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:58 .

[The Twilight God]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Roxy12 wrote...

Garrus' forced friendship is is at least as bad as Liara's. Try to roleplay a Shepard who doesn't like Garrus! You can ignore him (like Liara), or you're his best friend. I am unable to roleplay here.

I have tried it, and you're wrong. If you didn't recruit Garrus in ME1, Garrus never says, "Just like old times," the way he does with a Shepard he's familiar with.

So he never brings up the conversation about how things were leading up to Ilos compared to the suicide mission?

[Lozark]

Re: Garrus' forced friendship.

I'll agree that it is a bit of an oversight, but it is not as bad as the Liara sitation. Talking to him for the three seconds it takes to upgrade the thanix cannon doesn't intrude the way missing out on Samara and Thane, or a fun DLC mission does.

As for the "deal with it" sentiments, topics like this are a way of dealing with it. Liara's here to stay, whether one considers her a trusted friend or a creepy stalker, and the fact that a few people are on the creepy stalker side of that divide won't change that or keep one from loving the heck out of Liara.

[The Twilight God]

mrsph wrote...
You can be an outright dick to Garrus or Wrex, kill one in the first game and never see him again, and never recruit Garrus. Cutting out most of his friendship dialog in 2. Including locking out his romance in that save.

You sure about that? I mean, have you confirmed that? Because all Garrus's dialog is "old pal" dialog. Doesn't he make references to ME1 events rather you recruited him or not?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:06 .

[jlb524]

The Twilight God wrote...

mrsph wrote...
You can be an outright dick to Garrus or Wrex, kill one in the first game and never see him again, and never recruit Garrus. Cutting out most of his friendship dialog in 2. Including locking out his romance in that save.

You sure about that? I mean, have you confirmed that? Because all Garrus's dialog is "old pal" dialog. Doesn't he make references to ME1 events rather you recruited him or not?

Garrus' dialog is 'pal like' no matter what.  The dialog doesn't really change if you never recruited him...and you can still do the romance, afaik.

Both Garrus and Liara have forced friendships. 

Modifié par jlb524, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:19 .

[Seboist]

Watching my Shepard be buddy buddy with Liara in LOTSB while not being able to do the same with characters I consider to be her real best friends like Tali and Miranda was extremely annoying.

[Barquiel]

jlb524 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

mrsph wrote...
You can be an outright dick to Garrus or Wrex, kill one in the first game and never see him again, and never recruit Garrus. Cutting out most of his friendship dialog in 2. Including locking out his romance in that save.

You sure about that? I mean, have you confirmed that? Because all Garrus's dialog is "old pal" dialog. Doesn't he make references to ME1 events rather you recruited him or not?

Garrus' dialog is 'pal like' no matter what.  The dialog doesn't really change if you never recruited him...and you can still do the romance, afaik.

Both Garrus and Liara have forced friendships. 

You get a different conversation when you meet him (and I think you can't romance him, but I am not sure), that's all. He's still Shepards canon buddy and there isn't really an option to be mean to him in ME2. The worst thing you can do is say that you don't have time to hunt Sidonis.

[mineralica]

Seboist wrote...

Watching my Shepard be buddy buddy with Liara in LOTSB while not being able to do the same with characters I consider to be her real best friends like Tali and Miranda was extremely annoying.

Shepard making Liara SB no matter what s/he thinks of aliens and no matter who is the second person in squad is really annoying. That's why my xenophobe pro-Cerberus Ashley Shepard will never see that very good written dossiers. Hopefully ME3 plot won't be much Liara-related.

[Dean_the_Young]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Roxy12 wrote...

I don't know about you, but I am forced to recruited Garrus.

Again, saying that these minor "forced" interactions happens to other characters does not excuse Liara.

Yes, you're forced to recruit Garrus. But that's it! After that, your inattention to Garrus or your animosity towards him can get him killed. His friendship isn't a centeral plot point like Liara's that pushes the story forward and nor is it completely unavoidable.

And even if I did rescue her on Therum, that doesn't explain why she decided to keep my armour of display and it absolutely does not excuse her choice ot keep my dogtags, after Hackett explictitly told her to return them to me.

You didn't even know Garrus was Garrus in ME2, however, so it's not like you went out to recruit Garrus. Nor did friendship have anything to do with why you recruited him: Shepard doesn't say 'no' to picking up any of the allies in the game centered around picking up a team, but it certainly doesn't imply any view of Shepard's. Garrus may have an unfaltering positive view of Shepard, but that's Garrus's view: Shepard never has to share the bromance.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Roxy12 wrote...

This is my last post in this thread because it is a waste of time. You hate Liara, I get it.

Not to put too fine a line on it, but if that's what you've taken away from all these posts despite the explicit explanations, you're an idiot who doesn't get it.

But, since this is your last post in the thread, I suppose you'll never be able to show just how morally superior you are by giving another blistering retort after swearing to never post in this thread again.

[Neria Rose]

mrsph wrote...

The situation with Garrus, Tali, and Wrex isn't really the same as the forced friendship with Liara.

You can be an outright dick to Garrus or Wrex, kill one in the first game and never see him again, and never recruit Garrus. Cutting out most of his friendship dialog in 2. Including locking out his romance in that save.

Tali, like Liara, will always act like you were nice to her in one. But again, you can be an utter ass to her and destroy any semblance of friendship you have with her.

Liara takes it to an absurd degree. I can hardly be rude to her at all in LotSB, and the game treats her like she is my Shepard's lost love. Which is hilarious, considering I recruited her last and she was probably insane at that point. Which would probably explain her absurd stalking behavior.

That's it.. that's totally it! It's all planned out now.. she's insane, so she stalks. And in order to preserve the peace, Shepard caters to Liara's delusion by pretending to be her friend. It helps ensure Liara doesn't sink deeper into the vortex and become a danger to everyone. And Shepard just hasn't gotten the chance to be rid of Liara yet because of her stalkerish behavior. Once Liara has been killed by a Reaper or Shepard's supposed negligence (omgz u and ur shep r so pathetic 4 killing a char!1!!1) or whatever, Shepard is finally free to live her/his life without looking over her/his shoulder all of the time. It is a truly epic tale.

I think I actually will RP it like that.

[kumquats]

Seboist wrote...

Watching my Shepard be buddy buddy with
Liara in LOTSB while not being able to do the same with characters I
consider to be her real best friends like Tali and Miranda was extremely
annoying.

Casey said that they know what you did in the major DLCs (Arrival, LotSB). What "desicions" you made in the DLCs and your personal involvment will be reflected in ME3.
So Arrival and LotSB are canon, they are no real desicions. So I guess they will look how you ended the relationship with Liara and they will look if you tried to save the Batarians or just call for the Normandy, maybe even what you said to Admiral Hackett.

If they only include 2 of 3 desicions from the LotSB in ME3, that would be very weird, like, they made the option and the cutscene to end the friendship with her for nothing.

For me the last part of the DLC, the whole conversation, it's like a clear cut. What kind of relationship does Shepard want with Liara?
Maybe it's even a preview how you can interact with the Squadis in ME3, because you can't define any relationship so clearly like in LotSB.

The whole thing is like an upgrade for ME3, where you can choose how the interaction with the character should continue. They already said that there will be a friendship path for the Squadis, so why not make a third option, where you are strictly business like, maybe where you make clear that you don't like them.

The interactions with your squad and romance options are BW speciality, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't take the character interaction with the player to the next Level.

[KyreneZA]

Neria Rose wrote...

That's it.. that's totally it! It's all planned out now.. she's insane, so she stalks. And in order to preserve the peace, Shepard caters to Liara's delusion by pretending to be her friend. It helps ensure Liara doesn't sink deeper into the vortex and become a danger to everyone. And Shepard just hasn't gotten the chance to be rid of Liara yet because of her stalkerish behavior. Once Liara has been killed by a Reaper or Shepard's supposed negligence (omgz u and ur shep r so pathetic 4 killing a char!1!!1) or whatever, Shepard is finally free to live her/his life without looking over her/his shoulder all of the time. It is a truly epic tale.

I think I actually will RP it like that.

Exactly. It's much easier once you accept the behaviour as intentionally stalkerish. My Shepards hug and smile back just so she doesn't come to their captain's cabin and boil the poor space hamster in one of Gardner's pots.

[Vilio1]

This stalking nonsense is one of the dumbest things I've read on these boards.

- Liara received an annomonys tip that Shepard had been found -> Liara travels to Omega to meet Feron (she didn't even know that Shepard is dead - Feron told her)
Nowhere is it implied that she has searched for Shepard before.

- Liara argues with Miranda in Redemption -> quote: "I really think you should let the dead rest. This isn't what I brought Shepard back for."

- and in ME2...
Shepard: Come with me Liara
Liara: The universe doesn't work that way Shepard. I can't drop everything for you. I have debts that need repaying...

How exactly is this stalking?