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Liara's lack of death


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#601
Neria Rose

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

- Tali is a quarian (quarians detest cerberus) -> cooperation unlikely


I still say Tali would have worked better for the comic. Liara just doesn't work as an action girl. I can't really take her seriously.

Though Garrus would have been the best option. They should have just used him and then in the comic been vague about whether or not he was actually on Shepard's team.

TIM could instead say he approached him because of his successful investigation on the Citadel tracking Saren.


I would have preferred Cerberus finding Shepard's body without any of the ME1 squadmates, Garrus included. It would've prevented any continuity issues stemming from Shepard's relationships with the first team. Plus it would have weirded me out if Garrus couldn't move on like a normal person following Shepard's death.

#602
rolson00

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Nozybidaj wrote...

rolson00 wrote...
what i  loved about the me1 liara was the caring tender niave side of her in me2 she cared more for someone she didnt know and betrayed her all the time than shepard thats what i felt ne way. tali was only one not to change thats why i like her more now


I actually liked Tali less in ME2.  She went from young, but confident just setting out into the larger universe in ME1 to school girl with a crush in ME2.  Really turned me off her character.

i play femshep so didnt see the crush thing in me2 the suit sharing thing was an exsample of her trust in femshep

#603
Vilio1

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Neria Rose wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

- Tali is a quarian (quarians detest cerberus) -> cooperation unlikely


I still say Tali would have worked better for the comic. Liara just doesn't work as an action girl. I can't really take her seriously.

Though Garrus would have been the best option. They should have just used him and then in the comic been vague about whether or not he was actually on Shepard's team.

TIM could instead say he approached him because of his successful investigation on the Citadel tracking Saren.


I would have preferred Cerberus finding Shepard's body without any of the ME1 squadmates, Garrus included. It would've prevented any continuity issues stemming from Shepard's relationships with the first team. Plus it would have weirded me out if Garrus couldn't move on like a normal person following Shepard's death.


Liara didn't know that Shepard is dead. Feron told her

F: And you're right. I don know where Commander Shepard is. But you won't like what I have to tell you.
L: Dead?
F: Yes --or very close to it.

That has nothing to do with "Couldn't move on"


I would have prefered the Liara/Legion intro (not a big comic fan).

#604
Dean_the_Young

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The Twilight God wrote...

Could you make a list of all the situations that force you to befriend Liara; things that can only be interpreted as due to friendship and not prtacticality.

As I recall you can make mean comments and you don't have to hit every paragon interrupt.

I'm afraid I don't know what prtacticality is, but ME2's general depiction of Shepard's unavoidable gestures and tone (besides entirely avoiding Liara, which is about as much a choice in tone of relations as killing someone or having sex with them) is a rather good start.

#605
Dean_the_Young

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ZeroCrewX wrote...

There's no way they will provide solid proof of something that is totally born from their own mind.

The irony, and the philosophical questions, both probably passed without notice.

#606
Dean_the_Young

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

- Tali is a quarian (quarians detest cerberus) -> cooperation unlikely


I still say Tali would have worked better for the comic. Liara just doesn't work as an action girl. I can't really take her seriously.

Though Garrus would have been the best option. They should have just used him and then in the comic been vague about whether or not he was actually on Shepard's team.

TIM could instead say he approached him because of his successful investigation on the Citadel tracking Saren.

Or Tali and ArchAngel. Tali's 'still on pilgrimage,' because she doesn't feel she's moved on/doesn't want to return yet. Garrus has already gotten fed up with the Citadel, and has started as ArchAngel on Omega. Garrus is already opposing the Collectors (and therefore the Shadow Broker) as the in-comic motivation, and Tali is both a bit of coming to terms with the death on an already-established spiritual pilgrimage and opportunity when TIM contacts.

Since this can be justified as before the Alarai (or, if we want, just flip other timeframes around as well), Tali hasn't gotten the full-blown anti-Cerberus yet. ArchAngel, always pragmatic, cares less. Since its for Shepard, both are willing to accept TIM's tips... and as a result of the comic, both are willing to work with Cerberus for Shepard, rather than putting up paper-thin objections. Dialogue involved would leave Tali wondering if she knows ArchAngel (who has to keep that identity secret), but be vague enough to account for if Shepard didn't recruit Garrus (ArchAngel speaks about Shepard as someone he tracked from afar, not worked with), but also familiar enough to justify prior-knowledge (ArchAngel did his research).

And none of that '40% unnecessary plot twists' nonsense.

#607
Neria Rose

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Vilio1 wrote...

Liara didn't know that Shepard is dead. Feron told her

F: And you're right. I don know where Commander Shepard is. But you won't like what I have to tell you.
L: Dead?
F: Yes --or very close to it.


That has nothing to do with "Couldn't move on"


I would have prefered the Liara/Legion intro (not a big comic fan).


That right there means she should have just been like "Okay, it's over." Hell, if she was on the Normandy and realized Shepard had been shot out into space, she should have moved on. But instead, in my game, she goes after the body of someone who didn't like her.

By the way, I can't recall from the discussions on BSN, but does Liara say "I couldn't let you go" to non-romanced Sheps?

#608
Vilio1

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The Blue Suns attacked that moment -> Cerberus rescued them -> TIM told her about the collectors -> She goes after the body of someone who saved her life (and to find out why the collectors want the body)

#609
DNRB

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I read the title in darth vader voice. :lol:

"I find your lack of death disturbing".

Modifié par BRND, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:00 .


#610
KawaiiKatie

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Whoooa, this thread kind of exploded overnight!

kumquats wrote...

Casey said that they know what you did in the major DLCs (Arrival, LotSB). What "desicions" you made in the DLCs and your personal involvment will  be reflected in ME3. [...] So I guess they will look how you ended the relationship with Liara and they will look if you tried to save the Batarians or just call for the Normandy, maybe even what you said to Admiral Hackett. [...]

For me the last part of the DLC, the whole conversation, it's like a clear cut. What kind of relationship does Shepard want with Liara? Maybe it's even a preview how you can interact with the Squadis in ME3, because you can't define any relationship so clearly like in LotSB.


That would be pretty cool, actually. I'm hoping that Liara remembers my callous attitude come ME3, and that my Shepard can confront her about her "Shepard Shrine." Because even without meta-gaming, my Shepard knows that she kept his old armour and dogtags. The armour was on display in her apartment, and the dogtags were opening displayed on her desk. She even pointedly carried the dogtags away as if to say, "If you want these, you have to follow me...!"

If that issue goes unanswered in ME3, I'll be disappointed. It'll be an oversight that will always confuse me. "What did Liara do with those tags? ...wait... Don't answer."

AngelicMachinery wrote...

For those who didn't romance Liara, be prepared to have your love interests killed. Just saying.


Noooooooo...! :crying:

I've waited for two games to finally get a same-sex male romance option! Liara wouldn't just kill him off, would she? She's not that cruel! .....is she?

Neria Rose wrote...

I would have preferred Cerberus finding Shepard's body without any of the ME1 squadmates, Garrus included. It would've prevented any continuity issues stemming from Shepard's relationships with the first team. Plus it would have weirded me out if Garrus couldn't move on like a normal person following Shepard's death.


Agreed. I've been saying this forever. When Cerberus goes after Shepard's corpse, it's for impersonal reasons and I'm fine with it. When anyone from Shepard's past goes after his corpse, it's for personal reasons and it just seems creepy.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:42 .


#611
Vilio1

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I give up.

BTW, Casey Hudson has confirmed that Liara will play a pivotal role in ME3 -> Deal with it.

Have fun with your Liara hating.

#612
Guest_mrsph_*

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You know who would have been an even better idea to rescue Shepard's body?

Miranda.

#613
Neria Rose

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mrsph wrote...

You know who would have been an even better idea to rescue Shepard's body?

Miranda.


I'm not even a fan of Miranda (I don't hate her, though) and I agree with this. Bioware could have focused on introducing Miranda (or some other new character) and fleshing her out while concurrently getting Shepard's story rolling again. Hell, if they'd done that and kept the ass shots to a minimum, I may have had a more positive reaction to her.

#614
Lozark

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Miranda would have made a fine choice, that's true. Out of all known potentials, she has the motive that needs the least stretched explanation. Hell, throw Jacob or Wilson in there and give them some more depth of character or at least a chance for us to see how competent they all are. That's what the game implies before meeting Liara in ME2 and learning about the whole Shadow Broker fiasco: that Miranda and the Lazarus cell had been the ones to retrieve Shep's corpse.

#615
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Vilio1 wrote...

I give up.

BTW, Casey Hudson has confirmed that Liara will play a pivotal role in ME3 -> Deal with it.

Have fun with your Liara hating.


Liara can have as big of a role as she wants.

Just as long as she can die like all of the other characters.

#616
Tric

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^ And our Shepards don't have to obligatorily hug her when they see her or naturally be her friends. That was a decision BioWare should not have done for us.

Modifié par SomethingSome, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:31 .


#617
Seboist

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mrsph wrote...

You know who would have been an even better idea to rescue Shepard's body?

Miranda.


With Jacob.

#618
Guest_mrsph_*

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Seboist wrote...

With Jacob.


Which would have probably been a much better way to introduce the two leading humans.

#619
TMA LIVE

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Tali and Garrus wouldn't work, since when it comes to Tali, she already has a grudge against working for Cerberus when they attacked and tried to blow up one of their ships. And murdered her people. Not only would this hurt her chances of working for Cerberus, but also giving Shepard's body to them. And after the Normandy is destroyed, Tali could have possibly been given data that would help her complete her pilgrimage, making her unavailable. She also might of had a bad relationship with the Commander, like Liara. And not romantically interested in Femshep. Plus, considering even Kal'Reegar is presented as a getting his ass kicked, Quarians aren't good ground fighters, which the comic needs. And being a Quarians without the Normandy makes her days of getting around much harder. Especially on her own. Which makes her returning to the Fleet more likely then searching the galaxy for Shepard for a month. Tali is also going to be more focus on the Quarian/Geth plot, and not on the Shadow Broker plot.

Garrus could of had an entire adventure with Commander Shepard, or he could have been ditched at the elevator for being a Turian. He could have been taught to be more Paragon or Renegade, or he could have remained waiting at that elevator till he got bored. Sure he might still respect Shepard, but there's a difference between "being apart of Shepard's crew" and "being a fan who was rejected". Garrus might have also been taken training courses to be a Spectre, or stayed as a C-Sec Officer for at least a few months. There's too much possible histories that would have to be ignored. And one of the key things the comic brings up with Liara is that "You were one of Shepard's crew. You have a personal motive to help. You saw Shepard die. You are interested in finding Shepard, dead or live. And you would want him back."

Miranda I actually agree with. There is no reason for why she couldn't do exactly what Liara did. The only thing I can think of for why Liara was picked over Miranda was because TIM would rather have an alien die saving Shepard's corpse then Miranda if he could. Other then that, I consider it a flaw in the plot. But plot wise, it wouldn't matter. Miranda already plays a part in saving your corpse. She literally helps bring you back to life. It'd just add to something that's already there, which isn't much, since she's a stranger. Before you met Liara, most probably already thought she was the one that recovered your corpse.

Liara on the other hand, is an LI that has feelings for both Maleshep and Femshep, despite how you treat her. It's literally canon that she has those feelings regardless, which is a good motivation for looking for you, saving your corpse, and handing it to Cerberus to be rebuilt. She isn't a stranger. When she gave you to Cerberus, it means you're either getting personal love or personal hate coming from that. That "She" did this too you. Not just another Cerberus agent. Her. A person you like, dislike, had a romance with, had a friendship with. etc. Whether you like it or not, she considered you a friend, and someone she needed to make up for, for watching you die, and being able to do nothing about it. She has a personal motivate to bring you back. And you can blame her for it. You can go up to that character you didn't like in ME1, and say "YOU DID THIS TO ME!". You couldn't get that with a stranger. And comic wise, since it's Dark Horse, they probably wanted a character that's a trained biotic, who fought pirates and slavers before meeting Shepard, so they can get some force power action.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:19 .


#620
The Twilight God

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

- Tali is a quarian (quarians detest cerberus) -> cooperation unlikely


I still say Tali would have worked better for the comic. Liara just doesn't work as an action girl. I can't really take her seriously.

Though Garrus would have been the best option. They should have just used him and then in the comic been vague about whether or not he was actually on Shepard's team.

TIM could instead say he approached him because of his successful investigation on the Citadel tracking Saren.


Better yet, they should have used Legion like they originally intended. 

As it stands it's not so much that Liara is looking, it's the why she is looking. I assume she thinks he might be alive at the onset of the comic. If Shepard is presumed missing and not dead why is she the only one trying to figure out where he is? Why isn't Tali or Garrus trying to figure out where he is? Why isn't his actual lover (if not Liara) looking? Why aren't they working together? I hated how none of the other squadmates were close to each other. They are all just Shep's friends and have no particular feelings towards each other.

#621
The Twilight God

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm afraid I don't know what prtacticality is, but ME2's general depiction of Shepard's unavoidable gestures and tone (besides entirely avoiding Liara, which is about as much a choice in tone of relations as killing someone or having sex with them) is a rather good start.


Examples please.

Thanks.

#622
The Twilight God

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Neria Rose wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

Liara didn't know that Shepard is dead. Feron told her

F: And you're right. I don know where Commander Shepard is. But you won't like what I have to tell you.
L: Dead?
F: Yes --or very close to it.


That has nothing to do with "Couldn't move on"


I would have prefered the Liara/Legion intro (not a big comic fan).


That right there means she should have just been like "Okay, it's over." Hell, if she was on the Normandy and realized Shepard had been shot out into space, she should have moved on. But instead, in my game, she goes after the body of someone who didn't like her.

By the way, I can't recall from the discussions on BSN, but does Liara say "I couldn't let you go" to non-romanced Sheps?


Then she finds out the SB wants it to give it to the collectors.  Then Cerberus shows up and say they can revive him. The comic makes it out like the body isn't dead or alive, but in some stasis.

#623
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Neria Rose wrote...

I would have preferred Cerberus finding Shepard's body without any of the ME1 squadmates, Garrus included. It would've prevented any continuity issues stemming from Shepard's relationships with the first team. Plus it would have weirded me out if Garrus couldn't move on like a normal person following Shepard's death.


What the hell? I already responed to this... but my post is gone so whatever.

Anyway, yes, Cerberus finding the body alone might be better. That's not the point. IF you are going to have a ME1 squadmate work with them Tali works best. She is more believable as an action girl and has lots of hostility to Cerberus, which creates drama. Conflict is fun.

Garrus and Wrex would work better, but Garrus might not have been recruited and Wrex might be dead.

Liara just doesn't work. She isn't the badass commando type and she isn't the kind of person to get hung-up on Shepard ord anyone else. She killed her own mother for heaven's sake.

@Dean

That's a good idea too.

#624
Quole

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Vilio1 wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

- Tali is a quarian (quarians detest cerberus) -> cooperation unlikely


I still say Tali would have worked better for the comic. Liara just doesn't work as an action girl. I can't really take her seriously.

Though Garrus would have been the best option. They should have just used him and then in the comic been vague about whether or not he was actually on Shepard's team.

TIM could instead say he approached him because of his successful investigation on the Citadel tracking Saren.


I would have preferred Cerberus finding Shepard's body without any of the ME1 squadmates, Garrus included. It would've prevented any continuity issues stemming from Shepard's relationships with the first team. Plus it would have weirded me out if Garrus couldn't move on like a normal person following Shepard's death.


Liara didn't know that Shepard is dead. Feron told her

F: And you're right. I don know where Commander Shepard is. But you won't like what I have to tell you.
L: Dead?
F: Yes --or very close to it.

That has nothing to do with "Couldn't move on"


I would have prefered the Liara/Legion intro (not a big comic fan).

That dosnt make any sense considering Liara was on the Normandy right before it exploded, wth Shepard on it. EVERYONE knew (or atleast assumed) he was dead.

Modifié par Quole, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .


#625
aeetos21

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BW has referred to this story as "Shepard's story" numerous times and so it makes sense to me that when all is said and done there should be one squadmate who was there through all of it and can really narrate his story despite the outcome. And I think that's where BW is going with her, not unlike what they did with [spoiler] in Hawke's case for DA2. After all even though she was only a temp squadmate in ME2 Liara was in a position to basically keep track of all of Shepard's movements. Whether she survives ME3 or not, I'm less certain.