905 réponses à ce sujet

[CptData]

@nitefyre410

Concur.

Must say, only Liara was in a really "deadly" situation. She could starve to death in that stase field.

Ashley held her own against overwhelming Geth forces.
Tali was able to fight herself out as soon as Shepard arrived and distracted the assassins.
Virmire is a decision. You can't really count that as "damsel in distress situation".
The only "damsel in distress" situation for Ashley was Horizon. Without Shepard's help she would have been dragged away by the Collectors.
Tali had only another situation on Haelstrom ... O.o ...

And both did enough for Shepard. That's no contest here.

[nitefyre410]

CptData wrote...

@nitefyre410

Concur.

Must say, only Liara was in a really "deadly" situation. She could starve to death in that stase field.

Ashley held her own against overwhelming Geth forces.
Tali was able to fight herself out as soon as Shepard arrived and distracted the assassins.
Virmire is a decision. You can't really count that as "damsel in distress situation".
The only "damsel in distress" situation for Ashley was Horizon. Without Shepard's help she would have been dragged away by the Collectors.
Tali had only another situation on Haelstrom ... O.o ...

And both did enough for Shepard. That's no contest here.

 

All true but what I  was really talking about was character archetype and not the litereal saving of Liara. All the LI have been in some situation   where they need to be saved.  Horizon  Ashley even held her own... remember looked up and had that "Oh **** me" look on her face and told people  to get moving.

Tali issue is not  that needs saving its that she put herself in situation where she could be used because she wanted the approval from  Dad who had  thrown himself into his work(Not wrongfully so)  after death of  his wife.

[DPSSOC]

ThanesSniper wrote...
Liara is the only member who cannot die in the Mass Effect series so far. What do you think this means for ME3?

Liara finds the deus ex machina that stops the Reapers.

[Kid Buu]

Liara reminds me of colossi. So damn hard to kill.Its about getting them Corruptors in position to not get killed by ground forces.

Modifié par Kid Buu, 03 janvier 2012 - 12:32 .

[nitefyre410]

Kid Buu wrote...

Liara reminds me of colossi. So damn hard to kill.Its about getting them Corruptors in position to not get killed by ground forces.

 

and if that does not work... nothing beats the solution of smashing said target with at  BFR al la revial.


sometimes you have to our crazy the crazies.

[CptData]

DPSSOC wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...
Liara is the only member who cannot die in the Mass Effect series so far. What do you think this means for ME3?

Liara finds the deus ex machina that stops the Reapers.

Actually, I hope I don't have to use a DEM to stop the Reapers. It's always a sign of bad writing if you need such plot device. I simply wish I can achieve a perfect ending without "cheating" - DEM are cheating devices in a plot, so to speak.

[nitefyre410]

CptData wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...
Liara is the only member who cannot die in the Mass Effect series so far. What do you think this means for ME3?

Liara finds the deus ex machina that stops the Reapers.

Actually, I hope I don't have to use a DEM to stop the Reapers. It's always a sign of bad writing if you need such plot device. I simply wish I can achieve a perfect ending without "cheating" - DEM are cheating devices in a plot, so to speak.

 

True but a  Deus Ex Machina is usually better than a Diablos ex Machina.  Deus Ex Machina in dose are  okay like the main Character any Video Game is in some  sense a Deus  ex Machina. Truth be told if this was planned properly than niether a worry.

I Can with Deus Ex Machina is control dose... Al la superman.

The Problem that Mass Effect 3 faces is that we spent  most of 2 hunting down  Collectors and finding out little about the Reapers or how to beat them. 

[CptData]

nitefyre410 wrote...

True but a  Deus Ex Machina is usually better than a Diablos ex Machina.  Deus Ex Machina in dose are  okay like the main Character any Video Game is in some  sense a Deus  ex Machina. Truth be told if this was planned properly than niether a worry.

I Can with Deus Ex Machina is control dose... Al la superman.

The Problem that Mass Effect 3 faces is that we spent  most of 2 hunting down  Collectors and finding out little about the Reapers or how to beat them. 

Exactly.
I think ME2 should have been used for a more important task - Shepard is on the search for a weapon to defeat the Reapers. The Thanix canon is a start but not the end. What about that super mass accelerator that killed the derelict Reaper millions of years ago?

Sure, the protagonist is a DEM already. Actually, I don't like the entire "Shepard-dies-and-returns-plot" since it removes a great deal of the idea the ME-universe is "true" Sci-Fi without magic. ME1 was pretty much "true Sci-Fi" since everything the lore told made sense, even in a scientific way.
So to speak, ME2 made Shepard to a DEM, if you like, while in ME1 Shepard was just an ordinary soldier with an extraordinary career. S/he grew with the job.

The other big DEM seems to be Liara since LotSB.
Means we have already two DEMs in one game. Both are not enough to stop the Reapers. Does that mean we're going to see another DEM? I really don't like that idea. ME2 introduced the "plot-spanning plot- and logic-hole" ... I hope ME3 will fix some of those issues. Adding another logic hole won't help ...

[nitefyre410]

CptData wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

True but a  Deus Ex Machina is usually better than a Diablos ex Machina.  Deus Ex Machina in dose are  okay like the main Character any Video Game is in some  sense a Deus  ex Machina. Truth be told if this was planned properly than niether a worry.

I Can with Deus Ex Machina is control dose... Al la superman.

The Problem that Mass Effect 3 faces is that we spent  most of 2 hunting down  Collectors and finding out little about the Reapers or how to beat them. 

Exactly.
I think ME2 should have been used for a more important task - Shepard is on the search for a weapon to defeat the Reapers. The Thanix canon is a start but not the end. What about that super mass accelerator that killed the derelict Reaper millions of years ago?

Sure, the protagonist is a DEM already. Actually, I don't like the entire "Shepard-dies-and-returns-plot" since it removes a great deal of the idea the ME-universe is "true" Sci-Fi without magic. ME1 was pretty much "true Sci-Fi" since everything the lore told made sense, even in a scientific way.
So to speak, ME2 made Shepard to a DEM, if you like, while in ME1 Shepard was just an ordinary soldier with an extraordinary career. S/he grew with the job.

The other big DEM seems to be Liara since LotSB.
Means we have already two DEMs in one game. Both are not enough to stop the Reapers. Does that mean we're going to see another DEM? I really don't like that idea. ME2 introduced the "plot-spanning plot- and logic-hole" ... I hope ME3 will fix some of those issues. Adding another logic hole won't help ...

 

That has to be the poorest excuse for  time skip I have  most likely ever seen.   No see Liara would not be that bad if A. Shepard did not become the 4 billion dollar credit man and  B. her growth towards was not so centered around Shepard.

For instance lets  at the end of ME 1 she leaves the Normandy   romanced or not saying she is going hunt for clues about the Protheans.   Shepard a tough but farewell  the "If you need anything ..here the number be care fully* while he goes and  investigates the Geth lead.  Time passes and  they get regular updates but then time passes and the updates stop. Now we have to find her and be you see what she found and low behold that Shadow Broker has  knowledge on something they  need.   Also adding the  Feron angle lets say she pick him up as protection when entering the Terminus systems.   Throw in some Cerberus in who have be tracking the Collectors and the dissapperance of the colonies all the points  lead right to the Terminus the setting of the ME 2.   

A little rough but  thats off the top of  my head.

[CptData]

nitefyre410 wrote...

That has to be the poorest excuse for  time skip I have  most likely ever seen.   No see Liara would not be that bad if A. Shepard did not become the 4 billion dollar credit man and  B. her growth towards was not so centered around Shepard.

For instance lets  at the end of ME 1 she leaves the Normandy   romanced or not saying she is going hunt for clues about the Protheans.   Shepard a tough but farewell  the "If you need anything ..here the number be care fully* while he goes and  investigates the Geth lead.  Time passes and  they get regular updates but then time passes and the updates stop. Now we have to find her and be you see what she found and low behold that Shadow Broker has  knowledge on something they  need.   Also adding the  Feron angle lets say she pick him up as protection when entering the Terminus systems.   Throw in some Cerberus in who have be tracking the Collectors and the dissapperance of the colonies all the points  lead right to the Terminus the setting of the ME 2.   

A little rough but  thats off the top of  my head.

Hmm. Something like that. I once re-wrote the ME1 story plot (need to look for that thread). In the end you could make a difference how to start ME2. One outcome was pretty much like the stuff we saw so far. The second outcome was less deadly: the Normandy gets destroyed but Shepard made it out in time. S/he was critically injured and needed full two years to fully recover. However, in that scenario Shepard continues his career als Commander for the Alliance. The main story itself is still the same - taking down the Collectors & looking for proof the Reapers are returning (Arrival). In one scenario Shepard is working for Cerberus (but can defect at defined points) - in the other one s/he is working for the Alliance but can decide to infiltratre (and for renegade players even defect to) Cerberus.

Both scenarios also involved different squads. In case Shepard does the entire story for the Alliance, s/he can keep the original squad (mostly Garrus, Tali, VS and Liara since Wrex returns to Tuchanka in any scenario). When becoming an agent for Cerberus (either undercover or truly loyal to Cerberus) none of his/her old squad are following him but he can pick up Garrus and Tali later. In the Cerberus scenario Shepard works with Miranda and Jacob.
Also the story ends differently: working for Cerberus leads you to the Suicide Mission. Working for the Alliance allows you to take down the Collector Base with a small fleet.

And Liara and the Shadowbroker? Nope. Liara does not always become the SB. But Shepard can use the SB as source for new missions and intel. Maybe at some point Shepard can go on a mission to take down the SB, but then the player can choose from different options. In case you were working for Cerberus, Miranda is one option. If you were working for the Alliance you can pick Liara and a second option. Or you keep the current SB alive. Your decision.

Something like that ... actually, if there's any reboot of the series, I'd love to write the main story arc for all three parts

[Ashley_SR2]

Battlestar-style Reboot in a few years, eh Data?

[CptData]

I just found that thread.
Reboot ME series

Modifié par CptData, 03 janvier 2012 - 04:24 .

[nitefyre410]

CptData wrote...





Hmm. Something like that. I once re-wrote the ME1 story plot (need to look for that thread). In the end you could make a difference how to start ME2. One outcome was pretty much like the stuff we saw so far. The second outcome was less deadly: the Normandy gets destroyed but Shepard made it out in time. S/he was critically injured and needed full two years to fully recover. However, in that scenario Shepard continues his career als Commander for the Alliance. The main story itself is still the same - taking down the Collectors & looking for proof the Reapers are returning (Arrival). In one scenario Shepard is working for Cerberus (but can defect at defined points) - in the other one s/he is working for the Alliance but can decide to infiltratre (and for renegade players even defect to) Cerberus.

Both scenarios also involved different squads. In case Shepard does the entire story for the Alliance, s/he can keep the original squad (mostly Garrus, Tali, VS and Liara since Wrex returns to Tuchanka in any scenario). When becoming an agent for Cerberus (either undercover or truly loyal to Cerberus) none of his/her old squad are following him but he can pick up Garrus and Tali later. In the Cerberus scenario Shepard works with Miranda and Jacob.
Also the story ends differently: working for Cerberus leads you to the Suicide Mission. Working for the Alliance allows you to take down the Collector Base with a small fleet.

And Liara and the Shadowbroker? Nope. Liara does not always become the SB. But Shepard can use the SB as source for new missions and intel. Maybe at some point Shepard can go on a mission to take down the SB, but then the player can choose from different options. In case you were working for Cerberus, Miranda is one option. If you were working for the Alliance you can pick Liara and a second option. Or you keep the current SB alive. Your decision.

Something like that ... actually, if there's any reboot of the series, I'd love to write the main story arc for all three parts

 

To early for  reboots just yet but a Choice of the is shadow broker I can get down  with that... Dealing the Cerberus and the Normandy upgrade , you  run into Miranda and Jacob investgating   the Collectors.. Matter of fact the reason that Normandy is in the Terminus is because of the very same cover up and Shepard and crew pretty much  breaking all  types of laws going into the Terminus Systems... cut off from Alliance  and the  Nomandy   badly damaged in a fight with a Collector crusier. who else are you going to turn too.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 03 janvier 2012 - 04:25 .

[CptData]

^ As I said, I found that ancient thread where I was rewriting ME1 story.

I think it's kinda a headscratcher to send the Alliance Normandy SR2 into Terminus systems. That ship could have a civilian registry and it's not part of the Alliance since it's "property of Spectre Shepard" ... who knows.
It's not too difficult to send an Alliance!Shepard into Terminus systems.

[Ashley_SR2]

Gah! Thanks a lot CptData! Now I have to read your awesome ME1 re-write - Are you trying to prevent me from doing anything else today!

Before I read any of it - What was your mindset when creating it? Strictly creative? I ask because in the real world, decisions would have to be made based on the development cost and time and if a certain story is really needed. Is the game you wrote something that could be easy for the casual gamer to follow along? Would you have to constantly be explaining things to the player? Is it too much content for a $~60 dollar game? It might have been mentioned or not, I haven't read the forum replies so forgive my ignorance.

[CptData]

^ Ashley_SR2

Actually, ME1-reboot should be feel and play like ME2/ME3 (gameplay) with the baseline story arc and overall setting of ME1. Exploration should return, but with more lifelike planets (see Overlord) and more interesting side missions.
I love ME1 - it just came with boring looking planets to explore and the side missions were too generic. ME2 had better side missions but lacked planetary exploration. I don't know if ME3 will reintroduce this feature.

So my goal is to reboot ME without doing it entirely from scratch.
ME2 needs far more changes to work tbh. That's one of the reasons why I didn't post it yet ... it needs an entirely reworked story.

[nitefyre410]

Ashley_SR2 wrote...

Gah! Thanks a lot CptData! Now I have to read your awesome ME1 re-write - Are you trying to prevent me from doing anything else today!

Before I read any of it - What was your mindset when creating it? Strictly creative? I ask because in the real world, decisions would have to be made based on the development cost and time and if a certain story is really needed. Is the game you wrote something that could be easy for the casual gamer to follow along? Would you have to constantly be explaining things to the player? Is it too much content for a $~60 dollar game? It might have been mentioned or not, I haven't read the forum replies so forgive my ignorance.

Usually its not complexity of the plot that is issue - its how its presented for  ex.  Through the  Wormhole with Morgan Freeman on the Science Channel takes things like  Quatum Physics, Time  Travel, space travel and break it down so we the viewer can under stand it.   

Thats how stories started not only to entainment  but make more complex issues and themes easier to understand.

 Like Megamind said its all about


Prensentation! 

[DPSSOC]

CptData wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...
Liara is the only member who cannot die in the Mass Effect series so far. What do you think this means for ME3?

Liara finds the deus ex machina that stops the Reapers.

Actually, I hope I don't have to use a DEM to stop the Reapers. It's always a sign of bad writing if you need such plot device. I simply wish I can achieve a perfect ending without "cheating" - DEM are cheating devices in a plot, so to speak.

Unfortunately a DEM is necessary because you need some way to defeat the Reapers that is available both to a Shepard who fostered good relations with various allies and a Shepard who screwed every pooch they could find...twice.

This actually makes it a lot easier for me to ignore Liara's immortality because she's not a character anymore (or not just a character) she's a plot device.  She's the thing that leads us to the thing that makes us win.  She serves 0 purpose outside of that function (romances, while enjoyable, do not serve a purpose).  In ME1 she's the thing that leads you to the Conduit, in ME2 she's the thing that lets you get resurrected, and in ME3 she'll probably be the thing that leads you to whatever it takes to beat the Reapers.

[nitefyre410]

DPSSOC wrote...

CptData wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...
Liara is the only member who cannot die in the Mass Effect series so far. What do you think this means for ME3?

Liara finds the deus ex machina that stops the Reapers.

Actually, I hope I don't have to use a DEM to stop the Reapers. It's always a sign of bad writing if you need such plot device. I simply wish I can achieve a perfect ending without "cheating" - DEM are cheating devices in a plot, so to speak.

Unfortunately a DEM is necessary because you need some way to defeat the Reapers that is available both to a Shepard who fostered good relations with various allies and a Shepard who screwed every pooch they could find...twice.

This actually makes it a lot easier for me to ignore Liara's immortality because she's not a character anymore (or not just a character) she's a plot device.  She's the thing that leads us to the thing that makes us win.  She serves 0 purpose outside of that function (romances, while enjoyable, do not serve a purpose).  In ME1 she's the thing that leads you to the Conduit, in ME2 she's the thing that lets you get resurrected, and in ME3 she'll probably be the thing that leads you to whatever it takes to beat the Reapers.

 

DEM  won't be that much of a problem depending on how they pull it  off  now that depends. DEM is used in variing degrees and  the trope in of itself never a bad thing merely a tool.   Her being a plot device and merely just that is a shame which is maybe something that I instinctive  known from the start what is what she rubbed off on me the wrong way in the benining.

[Ashley_SR2]

Well since everyone is so certain that they will use a DEM - What plot device would you consider NOT to be a DEM? How would you write the ending plot device that saves the galaxy?

Everyone raised some good points and I'm curious to see what pops into mind that wouldn't be called a cheap way out.

Modifié par Ashley_SR2, 04 janvier 2012 - 01:22 .

[nitefyre410]

Ashley_SR2 wrote...

Well since everyone is so certain that they will use a DEM - What plot device would you consider NOT to be a DEM? How would you write the ending plot device that saves the galaxy?

 

The trick is have an idea of how you want to end the story from the start and also is  diffcult to say what can  completely destroy the Reapers because we no very little about them. What we do know is that convential space warfare hurt them but you need a lot of  it to take just one down. Head to head all alot warfare with the Reapers is just plain assinine. The best  you could do was bid time and hold them off.  The Thanix Cannon is not a solution because it takes time to produce and outfit the ships - time the we don't have.    My guess it would involved  finding some kind of back door in there system... a virus of some type . 


Also remember just because we know its going to DEM does not mean that is goings to be bad... one of the problems  I have with how many posters use DEM it further their given agruement for something bad. DEM is not bad in over itself but  miss used and over done it is bad...


Remeber always in moderations

stay thirsty  my friends.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 04 janvier 2012 - 01:31 .

[Ashley_SR2]

I like your options! I just fear that no matter what the ending, someone will cry foul and call it a cheat ending. Virus? Pff DEM. Big Cannon? What a joke. Galactic Fleet? Cheating, and so on.

[nitefyre410]

Ashley_SR2 wrote...

I like your options! I just fear that no matter what the ending, someone will cry foul and call it a cheat ending. Virus? Pff DEM. Big Cannon? What a joke. Galactic Fleet? Cheating, and so on.

Parish the thought this is  BSN   where some cry foul over breathing mask... that would never happen. 

I have just learned to kinda of roll with it - its what gives this place its charm just to see some  of the whine  that some posters come up with... I tend to drink with cheese  I make as look at my monitor in amusement.

[Ashley_SR2]

Haha, good answer

[nitefyre410]

Thanks