210 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am not going to talk about DLCs, because imo, the best they can be is a testing ground for change. Imo, the series needs a vast change in both design and mindset that cannot be handled in a DLC. I'll try to highlight the main ones.

1. The tell / show divide: Bioware is notorious for this imo. There is a sharp divide between what the game tells us, and what it shows us. This was shown in the extreme in DA2. We are told that Aveline is a competent captain of the guard, and yet the city is infested with crime and we see no night patrols at all. We are told Hawke has a fortune that we never see or use.  We are told that Kirkwall is an overcrowded city filled with refugees, but see it as an empty virtually lifeless city. We are told that abominations are mages poossessed by demons, and yet we see them as summonable  monsters that appear in the wave load. Of course gameplay and technicaly limitations would always restrict lore and story, but it could be done more seemlessly. If it's done poorly, it breaks immersion. Bioware games usually do it poorly and DA2 was an extreme example.

2. Related to this. A better engine, with a setting that looks and feels more alive. It helps with immersion a lot. If I am supposed to care about a city or country or whatever, don't expect me to when you're not bothering to make it feel alive in the first place. What is there for me to save? So have NPCs do something and have more of them. Have environments look diverse and goergous looking, not just shades of beige. Thinking that shoving dark environments in our faces makes the game grittier and darker is an illusion. Have it evolve and be responsive to your choices, for good or for ill.

3. Choices. Choices need to matter in the game. A few differences in dialogue, or an epilogue slide or any other superficial differences makes the consequences superficial. Bioware is great at giving us a lot of choices, but they never end up mattering. So what's the point? Some would say RPing the reasons behind the choice is the point. I'd say, RPing reactions to consequences in the game would be more meaningful. Choices need to affect the game, story and the setting in more than just superficial ways (which Bioware is barely even bothering to do). I can avoid talking abut it in the other points, but not this one. They should really learn from TW2, it blows all their games out of the water in that regard.

4. Stronger plots. Of all Bioware games I played, ME1 probably had the stronger overall plot. By that I mean a consistent, connected plot and not just filler between intro and conclusion. Actual important stuff happening in the middle that directly feeds into the plot, develops it and the characters involved (including antagonists). Sadly, DA:O suffered from this. DA2 even more with barely connected episodic acts that served little purpose and the only semblance of an overall plot was the Templar / mage question that was done very poorily imo.

5. More interesting complex human settings. I hate this about Bioware games and a lot of games. Resorting to the supernatural, whether sentient or not, to move the plot. Usualy manifests itself as the "big bad evil". The Blight in DA:O, Reapers in ME, and Idol / Thin Veil / Demons in DA2.  This for me is a lazy way out to avoid having to write a complex human story, with actual political intrigue, social dynamics, character development...etc beyond bare basics. I am sorry to say that Bioware is bad at writing politics and warfare. And was just terrible in DA2. And I quite frankly am getting sick of that same paradigm. It's time for the fantasy genre to grow outside the shadow of LOTR and the one ring. Very related to that, Bioware is too "bipolar". In the sense that even if they say otherwise, their stories ends up being about faction A vs faction B (with the faction against the PC usually villified), and choices end up being about A or B (sometiems C, which is in between and often gets ignored or punished). Whether they want to call it light / dark, paragon/ renegade or not give it names at all is irrelevent. It's about time they write stories that are more complex than that, with multiple factions at work and not just 2. 

EDIT: 6. More proactive protagonist. I want a PC who does more than just react, or act because  NPC X, or email, or voice or letter told him to do something. I want a character that can do something out of his own volition. The closest Bioware game to have that was ME1 and it was still not good enough in that regard imo. Also, I am tired of the PC being a one man army, or a one squad army, essentially killing everything in their way. I want a PC that is more than a killing machine. I want different ways to tackle a quest, options that allow you to utilize skills that involve something other than just killing. I want sidequests like murder investigations, negotiations...etc that needs me and the PC to use our brain. I want to be able to play a PC that does not just kill. DA2 was very bad in that regard. DA:O was mediocre. ME1 and especially Kotor had good sidequests and options in that regard.  

That's the major points that I can think of at the moment.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 07:07 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
1. The tell / show divide: Bioware is notorious for this imo. There is a sharp divide between what the game tells us, and what it shows us. This was shown in the extreme in DA2. We are told that Aveline is a competent captain of the guard, and yet the city is infested with crime and we see no night patrols at all. We are told Hawke has a fortune that we never see or use.  We are told that Kirkwall is an overcrowded city filled with refugees, but see it as an empty virtually lifeless city. We are told that abominations are mages poossessed by demons, and yet we see them as summonable  monsters that appear in the wave load. Of course gameplay and technicaly limitations would always restrict lore and story, but it could be done more seemlessly. If it's done poorly, it breaks immersion. Bioware games usually do it poorly and DA2 was an extreme example.

This is something that infuriates me to no end. It seems like the writing process at BioWare consists of a bunch of guys writing a story, and then a bunch of other guys throwing waves of monsters into it. BioWare needs to realize from the start that they are writing for an RPG, and write stories that typical RPG junk (trudging through a bunch of weak enemies, followed by a boss fight) fits into snugly, and also realize that players can handle going ten minutes without a fight. The streets of kirkwall didn't need to be filled with thugs at night.

2. Related to this. A better engine, with a setting that looks and feels more alive. It helps with immersion a lot. If I am supposed to care about a city or country or whatever, don't expect me to when you're not bothering to make it feel alive in the first place. What is there for me to save? So have NPCs do something and have more of them. Have environments look diverse and goergous looking, not just shades of beige. Thinking that shoving dark environments in our faces makes the game grittier and darker is an illusion. Have it evolve and be responsive to your choices, for good or for ill.

I agree about your general point (things should feel alive), but I don't think you're correct about how to achieve it. I don't think it really matters if the environments are beautiful (and btw, I liked the look of kirkwall), but I think it matters that they are responsive, tied to the story, and interactive. If I earn a reputation for killing a bunch of people, citizens should walk away from me when I pass by. If a huge fight breaks out in the streets, their should be signs of battle left over. You also need to include characters from all walks of life, and make them real characters. NWN2 was a game that did this (and little else) very well. In DA:O and DA][ I felt like most enemies existed only to grant me xp, and most citizens were just there for window dressing. You need to have us start low, deeply develop a few commoners, and a few enemies, have us move up, develop a few guardsmen, or a few merchants, or something like that. I need to feel like I'm surrounded by people, not loot droppers.

3. Choices. Choices need to matter in the game. A few differences in dialogue, or an epilogue slide or any other superficial differences makes the consequences superficial. Bioware is great at giving us a lot of choices, but they never end up mattering. So what's the point? Some would say RPing the reasons behind the choice is the point. I'd say, RPing reactions to consequences in the game would be more meaningful. Choices need to affect the game, story and the setting in more than just superficial ways (which Bioware is barely even bothering to do). I can avoid talking abut it in the other points, but not this one. They should really learn from TW2, it blows all their games out of the water in that regard.

Here, I sort of disagree. I want more meaningful choices, yes, but I also understand the limitations of a budget, and I think a superficial (but non-contradicted) choice is far better than no choice at all. I like RPing to decide the fate of a small town, and having that choice reflected only in cheap, cheap text, or a few lines of dialog. Of course, I'd like a more substantial change more, but that doesn't mean I don't love choices with small (buget-wise) consequences.

4. Stronger plots. Of all Bioware games I played, ME1 probably had the stronger overall plot. By that I mean a consistent, connected plot and not just filler between intro and conclusion. Actual important stuff happening in the middle that directly feeds into the plot, develops it and the characters involved (including antagonists). Sadly, DA:O suffered from this. DA2 even more with barely connected episodic acts that served little purpose and the only semblance of an overall plot was the Templar / mage question that was done very poorily imo.

I don't neccessarily think a strong central plot is crucial to having a good game. Some fiction is plot-based, some is subplot-heavy, and some is centered around developing characters or settings. All are perfectly valid options.

5. More interesting complex human settings. I hate this about Bioware games and a lot of games. Resorting to the supernatural, whether sentient or not, to move the plot. Usualy manifests itself as the "big bad evil". The Blight in DA:O, Reapers in ME, and Idol / Thin Veil / Demons in DA2.  This for me is a lazy way out to avoid having to write a complex human story, with actual political intrigue, social dynamics, character development...etc beyond bare basics. I am sorry to say that Bioware is bad at writing politics and warfare. And was just terrible in DA2. And I quite frankly am getting sick of that same paradigm. It's time for the fantasy genre to grow outside the shadow of LOTR and the one ring. Very related to that, Bioware is too "bipolar". In the sense that even if they say otherwise, their stories ends up being about faction A vs faction B (with the faction against the PC usually villified), and choices end up being about A or B (sometiems C, which is in between and often gets ignored or punished). Whether they want to call it light / dark, paragon/ renegade or not give it names at all is irrelevent. It's about time they write stories that are more complex than that, with multiple factions at work and not just 2. 

I absolutely agree, with one little addendum. The supernatural =/= the illogical. I love stories that really get into the supernatural and how it effects the world, and the sign of a good supernatural-focused story (such as, say, Dune) is that focusing on supernatural elements should increase human complexity, not decrease it.

EDIT: 6. More proactive protagonist. I want a PC who does more than just react, or act because  NPC X, or email, or voice or letter told him to do something. I want a character that can do something out of his own volition. The closest Bioware game to have that was ME1 and it was still not good enough in that regard imo. Also, I am tired of the PC being a one man army, or a one squad army, essentially killing everything in their way. I want a PC that is more than a killing machine. I want different ways to tackle a quest, options that allow you to utilize skills that involve something other than just killing. I want sidequests like murder investigations, negotiations...etc that needs me and the PC to use our brain. I want to be able to play a PC that does not just kill. DA2 was very bad in that regard. DA:O was mediocre. ME1 and especially Kotor had good sidequests and options in that regard.  

I agree completely, on both of your points (proactivity / noncombat quests). The issue with proactive quests is how to deliver them to the player. Obviously it would be a bit silly if a quest just popped into your journal with plot markers and all, but I think this could be done well by having a number of standing problems introduced early on in the game (there are a bunch of raiders in the west. Lumber is prohibitively expensive.) and you're left with no hints on how to solve it, except for what you figure out yourself, and through dialog options you choose on the side. (I just saved the general's daughter, so maybe if I stop by and ask him about it, he could stop the raiders. The codex says the tevinter are the largest exporters of lumber in the world. The chantry probably doesn't like trade with tevinter. Perhaps I should ask the grand cleric about it)

[PinkShoes]

I want the talking to your party members back and an epic story back :3

[KnightofPhoenix]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...
Here, I sort of disagree. I want more meaningful choices, yes, but I also understand the limitations of a budget, and I think a superficial (but non-contradicted) choice is far better than no choice at all. I like RPing to decide the fate of a small town, and having that choice reflected only in cheap, cheap text, or a few lines of dialog. Of course, I'd like a more substantial change more, but that doesn't mean I don't love choices with small (buget-wise) consequences.

Of course I am not saying that every single small choice needs to have game changing consequences. Its not feasible. But I think that a good number of choices should have consequences, both small (as in not game changing but in the game and not text or dialogue) and big.

Personally, I pefer quality over quantity. I'd take 6 meaningful choices over 12 that are superficial and meaningless.  Of course I can think of some scenarios that could have interesting choices, without necessarily having consequences other than different dialogue (or a cameo). I am fine with those, but Bioware has too many of them, while not having any real meaningful choice.

[L6-636536]

Im betting on the DLC being a return trip to Fereldan (After Act 1 Hawke Clearly states s/hes been back.) same for Aveline. But what I would really like to see is something a bit more back that would not horrifically destroy DA3 continuity but something involving the Amell family because im not too sure on what happened to Hawkes father.

Modifié par L6-636536, 28 juin 2011 - 06:05 .

[Addai]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

I don't neccessarily think a strong central plot is crucial to having a good game. Some fiction is plot-based, some is subplot-heavy, and some is centered around developing characters or settings. All are perfectly valid options.

Agreed.  I'm often diverted by author rabbit trails and find I enjoy subplots more than the main arc, or stories within stories.  Bioware games are linear enough.  The writers should have flexibility to stretch their muscles once in a while and tell smaller stories without feeling forced to artificially make them "central."  For instance, in Origins I liked Nature of the Beast and the Sacred Ashes quests a lot even though these were side stories mostly.  They fill in the world and lore and have interesting sub-angles of their own.  Or like on the recent Fallout New Vegas DLC Honest Hearts, I loved the survivalist mini-story.  It also adds to the character of the world.  Places and NPCs are interesting to me when they have stories attached to them, even if it means a side diversion to hear/ see them.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 juin 2011 - 03:15 .

[In Exile]

KOP,

Just wanted to point out I'm on the same page. What I would say is that story wise, Bioware needs to change the structure of the games. A good example for a story with choice that feels coherent is TW1, TW2 and as well as BGII and JE from Bioware's line and PS:T from Black Isle: the story has to move forward and change several times between start and finish.

In DA:O, after Ostagar, you know the story. In DA2, you essentially know the story at the start of every arc (with the only exception being Act III's twist at the end). But in JE you don't, and whatever part of the game you pick, there are more revelations for you to have (unless you pick the last act). BG II is iffy. And in TW1-TW2 each act develops the story. PS:T develops a strong story that you can't just pick up in the middle.

[erynnar]

Addai67 wrote...

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

I don't neccessarily think a strong central plot is crucial to having a good game. Some fiction is plot-based, some is subplot-heavy, and some is centered around developing characters or settings. All are perfectly valid options.

Agreed.  I'm often diverted by author rabbit trails and find I enjoy subplots more than the main arc, or stories within stories.  Bioware games are linear enough.  The writers should have flexibility to stretch their muscles once in a while and tell smaller stories without feeling forced to artificially make them "central."  For instance, in Origins I liked Nature of the Beast and the Sacred Ashes quests a lot even though these were side stories mostly.  They fill in the world and lore and have interesting sub-angles of their own.  Or like on the recent Fallout New Vegas DLC Honest Hearts, I loved the survivalist mini-story.  It also adds to the character of the world.  Places and NPCs are interesting to me when they have stories attached to them, even if it means a side diversion to hear/ see them.

I agree Addai!

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Addai
I don't mind sidequests of that nature. In fact I expect them. But so long as they are sidequests and not main quests.

I personally prefer a more consistent story with each act, as Exile said, developping it and the characters involved. TW1 did it well I thought (since you played it).  That's what I thought was really lacking in DA2. I am not sure it has a story, other than Templar / mages which I thought was done very poorily and was essnetially in the bg in Act 1-2. The game does not allow Hawke to care about it that much either (so I am not sure what his goal / purpose in the whole thing is).

Thanks Destination Unknown

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 juin 2011 - 05:03 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
The writers should have flexibility to stretch their muscles once in a while and tell smaller stories without feeling forced to artificially make them "central."  For instance, in Origins I liked Nature of the Beast and the Sacred Ashes quests a lot even though these were side stories mostly.  They fill in the world and lore and have interesting sub-angles of their own.

I think sub-quests of this nature are very good, and should be included - it's just the way they're done.

Here's the structure I really like (from Jade Empire - Beware, Plot Spoilers):

The actual story structure of the game is:

Two Rivers  - Tien's Landing - Imperial City - Dirge/Endgame.

Now, Tien's Landing and the Imperial City both actually have branches: 4 in Tien's Landing (Pirate Base, Dam, Forest, Spirit Realm) and 4 in the Imperial City (Scholars Garden, Arena, Tombs, Martial Arts School).

You can skip a lot of the content in the Imperial City and Tien's Landing has you searching for 4 MacGuffins (plane parts, sky maps, etc.) but that's only part of the story.

For each section of the main quest, you can describe the amount of information you have about the plot and what each section introduces - unlike DA:O, you learn more about the central conflict at each step. But many of the quests that relate to the MacGuffins, and essentially all the Imperial City quests, are side quests. They add to the richness of the world.

There's a way to have both kinds of content without making the main story feel disjointed or losing the richness of sidequests.

[Il Divo]

In Exile wrote...

I think sub-quests of this nature are very good, and should be included - it's just the way they're done.

Here's the structure I really like (from Jade Empire - Beware, Plot Spoilers):

The actual story structure of the game is:

Two Rivers  - Tien's Landing - Imperial City - Dirge/Endgame.

Now, Tien's Landing and the Imperial City both actually have branches: 4 in Tien's Landing (Pirate Base, Dam, Forest, Spirit Realm) and 4 in the Imperial City (Scholars Garden, Arena, Tombs, Martial Arts School).

You can skip a lot of the content in the Imperial City and Tien's Landing has you searching for 4 MacGuffins (plane parts, sky maps, etc.) but that's only part of the story.

For each section of the main quest, you can describe the amount of information you have about the plot and what each section introduces - unlike DA:O, you learn more about the central conflict at each step. But many of the quests that relate to the MacGuffins, and essentially all the Imperial City quests, are side quests. They add to the richness of the world.

There's a way to have both kinds of content without making the main story feel disjointed or losing the richness of sidequests.

And this is why I consider Jade Empire to be Bioware's best storyline. 

[Sad Dragon]

@KoP: First of all, nice post! I agree with points 1,5 and 6 though I'm not sure about 2, 3 and 4 -- and by that I mean that I am not sure if I disagree with you or if we are merely looking at things from different point of views -- either way its a good post.

And as I am not sure if i agree slightly or disagree with you I just wanted to type out my thoughts on those points and see if its simply a matter of point of view or perhaps I just read stuff into the post that wasn't there or if we just have different opinions on the topics at hand. So lets start with point number 2.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

2. Related to this. A better
engine, with a setting that looks and feels more alive. It helps with
immersion a lot. If I am supposed to care about a city or country or
whatever, don't expect me to when you're not bothering to make it feel
alive in the first place. What is there for me to save? So have NPCs do
something and have more of them. Have environments look diverse and
goergous looking, not just shades of beige. Thinking that shoving dark
environments in our faces makes the game grittier and darker is an
illusion. Have it evolve and be responsive to your choices, for good or
for ill.

I honestly do not think this is an engine issue -- unless they have optimization problems. BioWare should be able to ramp things up in terms of NPCs walking the streets during the day -- and night -- or add more assets into the levels without having to change the engine. Though they might need to add pathfinding of some kind to the NPCs to make them feel more like people and not just manikins placed in the street. Now I'm not saying this probably couldn't be done better with a new engine, I am merely suggesting that they should be able to use their current one to accomplish this which would also mean less devtime before we might see something like this in a BioWare game.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

3. Choices. Choices need to
matter in the game. A few differences in dialogue, or an epilogue slide
or any other superficial differences makes the consequences superficial.
Bioware is great at giving us a lot of choices, but they never end up
mattering. So what's the point? Some would say RPing the reasons behind
the choice is the point. I'd say, RPing reactions to consequences in the
game would be more meaningful. Choices need to affect the game, story
and the setting in more than just superficial ways (which Bioware is
barely even bothering to do). I can avoid talking abut it in the other
points, but not this one. They should really learn from TW2, it blows
all their games out of the water in that regard.

Ok this might be an unpopular stance, but please, here me out. I do actually believe that you can do just as well with just having the illusion of choice -- or very limited choices. The trick here is to make sure the player never feels railroaded -- which is tricky, but can be done. BioWare used to be a company that did this quite a lot, sadly the railroad tracks has started to become apparent of late.

Now choice and consequences are nice, don't get me wrong and, yes I have to agree, TW2 did a good job of showing us how it could be done but I still don't think its necessarily needed in a game or a RPG for that matter -- though it certainly helps.

I could go into more detail here but as I am planing to write a blog post conserning the topic of choice and consequences -- which will sadly probably end up being 4 pages long ;; -- I will stop here and focus my energy on the blog. Sorry

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

4. Stronger plots. Of all Bioware
games I played, ME1 probably had the stronger overall plot. By that I
mean a consistent, connected plot and not just filler between intro and
conclusion. Actual important stuff happening in the middle that directly
feeds into the plot, develops it and the characters involved (including
antagonists). Sadly, DA:O suffered from this. DA2 even more with barely
connected episodic acts that served little purpose and the only
semblance of an overall plot was the Templar / mage question that was
done very poorily imo.

This is the point I am at least half sure that we disagree on -- maybe. I personally have always found BioWare to have a good plot, sure most -- if not all -- of their games follows a set formula of beginning -> multiple plot threads to explore -> end, but I do think they have had solid plots. I'm not going to disagree that various plots during the middle feels less connected to the main plot then others -- though I will say I think this was the case for Mass Effect as well.

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

I don't neccessarily think a
strong central plot is crucial to having a good game. Some fiction is
plot-based, some is subplot-heavy, and some is centered around
developing characters or settings. All are perfectly valid options.

Also wanted to adress this quote as well -- sorry KoP you don't get a whole post dedicated to yourself

Now I agree and disagree with this from a story perspective. Sure you can make a story that is less focused on the central plot and more on individual subplots but for the story to feel like one whole story and not a collection of stories I still think you need a strong central plot. You don't need to focus on it, but the thread must be there.

In DA2's case the thread just wasn't there when the third act came around. Acts 1 and 2 had a strong enough connection that it actually felt like they belonged in the same game. Act 3 however didn't feel like it belonged with the first two unless we assume that the game is less of the story centering around Hawke as the protagonist but rather centers around Anders -- though in that case Act 2 is the odd one out.

Anyways i digress, the point I was trying to make here is that I don't think I have ever come into contact with a story that lacks a 'strong' central plot, it might not be the direct focus, or in your face, but it still drives and holds the story together.

Though MinotaurWarrior might know of some stories that I dont -- in which case I wouldn't mind a PM with some names always fun to explore new things -- especially things on a topic I like


That was it for me for this time but before I go. KoP, MW -- good post guys

- The Sad Dragon

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Sad Dragon
Thanks for the compliments

Sad Dragon wrote...
I honestly do not think this is an engine issue -- unless they have optimization problems. BioWare should be able to ramp things up in terms of NPCs walking the streets during the day -- and night -- or add more assets into the levels without having to change the engine. Though they might need to add pathfinding of some kind to the NPCs to make them feel more like people and not just manikins placed in the street. Now I'm not saying this probably couldn't be done better with a new engine, I am merely suggesting that they should be able to use their current one to accomplish this which would also mean less devtime before we might see something like this in a BioWare game.

I was assuming that their engine couldn't handle it. At least that's what I've been reading on the forums. I am not sure, I suck at technicalities. I am not expecting them to be on Assassin's Creed's level, but they really need to improve in that regard imo.

I could go into more detail here but as I am planing to write a blog post conserning the topic of choice and consequences -- which will sadly probably end up being 4 pages long ;; -- I will stop here and focus my energy on the blog. Sorry

Let me know when it's done!

It may not be necessary and a lot of it is subjective. That was in part me being tired of Bioware having the same formula. But I do genuniely believe that choices with consequences are better than illusion of choice. Because I believe this is related to the responsiveness of the world you're playing in. It helps make it alive. But it also affects the story.

In TW2, the choice in Act 1 greatly influences your entire perspective on the story. In some ways, it gives you another lense or another angle to look at the same story (and the different characters involved). That for me is one of the signs of a good story. That I can look at it from different perspectives, have them mutually compliment each other to increase my understanding of the story, and have me enjoy both angles equally. 

And of course, it enhances replayability.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 juin 2011 - 05:48 .

[Sad Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...
I honestly do not think this is an engine issue -- unless they have optimization problems. BioWare should be able to ramp things up in terms of NPCs walking the streets during the day -- and night -- or add more assets into the levels without having to change the engine. Though they might need to add pathfinding of some kind to the NPCs to make them feel more like people and not just manikins placed in the street. Now I'm not saying this probably couldn't be done better with a new engine, I am merely suggesting that they should be able to use their current one to accomplish this which would also mean less devtime before we might see something like this in a BioWare game.

I was assuming that their engine couldn't handle it. At least that's what I've been reading on the forums. I am not sure, I suck at technicalities. I am not expecting them to be on Assassin's Creed's level, but they really need to improve in that regard imo.

Might have missed that ^^;

I was making my assumption based on the cluster f**k that happened in high town by accident one playthrough where I accedentally spawned both a random encounter as well as a quest encounter at the same time. That was a lot of characters in one place let me tell you. Of course, it is possible that the engine isnt optimized to handle that for the whole area -- maybe the culling in the engine isnt up for that level of npcs in all areas of any one zone.

Just want to make this abundantly clear -- I have not seen the code for the engine they use so I do not know how they handle the culling and other things in the engine. So if they say that the engine can't handle it then who am I to argue against them. Just wanted to make that clear, hope i didnlt over do it. ^^;

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let me know when it's done!

Will do, you can read my previous blogs in the same series -- though they handle different topics -- while you wait: link here
The next one should -- hopefully -- be done before the weekend, or sunday at the latest.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It
may not be necessary and a lot of it is subjective. That was in part me
being tired of Bioware having the same formula. But I do genuniely
believe that choices with consequences are better than illusion of
choice. Because I believe this is related to the responsiveness of the
world you're playing in. It helps make it alive. But it also affects the
story.

In TW2, the choice in Act 1 greatly influences your
entire perspective on the story. In some ways, it gives you another
lense or another angle to look at the same story (and the different
characters involved). That for me is one of the signs of a good story.
That I can look at it from different perspectives, have them mutually
compliment each other to increase my understanding of the story, and
have me enjoy both angles equally. 

And of course, it enhances replayability.

While I love choices with real consequences I also love a well put together story that fools me into ignoring the plotrails.


Before I go, let me just ask a question: Is is that BioWares plots feel railroaded that you are tired of, or is it just that you would like them to change up their structure a bit?

-TSD

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sad Dragon wrote...
Before I go, let me just ask a question: Is is that BioWares plots feel railroaded that you are tired of, or is it just that you would like them to change up their structure a bit?

-TSD

Both to be honest. Railroading is virtually impossible to avoid, but I feel that BioWare is not doing that great of a job making it sensible and immersive lately (and I believe one way to improve it is to have stronger central plots that make sense). And I'd prefer some more flexibility without weakening the central plot. I am also tired of their structure.

But above all, I am tired of their writing. It's the same binary mindset and paradigm. It's getting more and more repetitive, less and less interesting imo.  So it's point 5 in my original post that I stress on a lot.

And thanks for the link!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[Sad Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...
Before I go, let me just ask a question: Is is that BioWares plots feel railroaded that you are tired of, or is it just that you would like them to change up their structure a bit?

-TSD

Both to be honest. Railroading is virtually impossible to avoid, but I feel that BioWare is not doing that great of a job making it sensible and immersive lately (and I believe one way to improve it is to have stronger central plots that make sense). And I'd prefer some more flexibility without weakening the central plot. I am also tired of their structure.

But above all, I am tired of their writing. It's the same binary mindset and paradigm. It's getting more and more repetitive, less and less interesting imo.  So it's point 5 in my original post that I stress on a lot.

And thanks for the link!

-nods sadly- I can understand what you mean. They did try to spice things up in terms of structure in DA2 though -- though I feel that the plot thread and overaching story wasnt where it needed to be to support their vision with the frame narrativ, which I belive is at least half related to dev time.

I also agree with your point of the morality system, sadly I think this is left over from the D&D days when we used alignments and might be something of a darling at this point. That said I think you could make such a system awesome, but the current one is to broad to have any real meaning. Though this is an interesting topic and one I will add to the list of topics I will need to look into

Also: No problem mate, dont let the massive wall of text scare you!

-The Sad Dragon

[Wulfram]

Proactive fits in poorly with a non predefined protagonist, because you don't know what the character wants to do.

Hawke's rise to power has to depend on circumstance because it needs to work even for a character who doesn't particularly want it.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not going to talk about DLCs, because imo, the best they can be is a testing ground for change. Imo, the series needs a vast change in both design and mindset that cannot be handled in a DLC. I'll try to highlight the main ones.

1. The tell / show divide: Bioware is notorious for this imo. There is a sharp divide between what the game tells us, and what it shows us. This was shown in the extreme in DA2. We are told that Aveline is a competent captain of the guard, and yet the city is infested with crime and we see no night patrols at all. We are told Hawke has a fortune that we never see or use.  We are told that Kirkwall is an overcrowded city filled with refugees, but see it as an empty virtually lifeless city. We are told that abominations are mages poossessed by demons, and yet we see them as summonable  monsters that appear in the wave load. Of course gameplay and technicaly limitations would always restrict lore and story, but it could be done more seemlessly. If it's done poorly, it breaks immersion. Bioware games usually do it poorly and DA2 was an extreme example.

Denerim wasn't any better at feeling alive imo.

And Abominations need to actually be a threat. Whether we see them all the time or rarely shouldn't affect them being a challenge. I'm tired of being told that Abominations are a dangerous threat and all I see are meatball flesh sack drunkards trying to beat me up. We've only seen two abominations that have really caused destruction. Connor and Feynriel. Connor's situation however is another part of the telling instead of showing I think. We don't see him actually making these corpses come to life. They just are, and we're told that he's become a threat.

Feynriel however was given a decent showing to drive the point home of the strength of his powers, both before the Sloth Demon takeover and after. I do like how if we make him an Abomination (which I'll never do and I'll never understand why people do that) we see that the Sloth Dreamer Abomination is using his powers to drive guards insane. the show probably could've been better, but I don't know.

2. Related to this. A better engine, with a setting that looks and feels more alive. It helps with immersion a lot. If I am supposed to care about a city or country or whatever, don't expect me to when you're not bothering to make it feel alive in the first place. What is there for me to save? So have NPCs do something and have more of them. Have environments look diverse and goergous looking, not just shades of beige. Thinking that shoving dark environments in our faces makes the game grittier and darker is an illusion. Have it evolve and be responsive to your choices, for good or for ill.

I agree that we need more lifelike settings, but gorgeous graphics won't help too much in that regard. They can certainly add to the experience of a lifelike setting, but that's not enough.

Kirkwall was just the same stale city year after year after year. It never changed, never evolved. The only "evolution", and I use that word very loosely, was the statue of some Hawke wannabe in the city. But that isn't nearly enough.

3. Choices. Choices need to matter in the game. A few differences in dialogue, or an epilogue slide or any other superficial differences makes the consequences superficial. Bioware is great at giving us a lot of choices, but they never end up mattering. So what's the point? Some would say RPing the reasons behind the choice is the point. I'd say, RPing reactions to consequences in the game would be more meaningful. Choices need to affect the game, story and the setting in more than just superficial ways (which Bioware is barely even bothering to do). I can avoid talking abut it in the other points, but not this one. They should really learn from TW2, it blows all their games out of the water in that regard.

I still have yet to play TW2, as it keeps lagging for me.

I'm not sure though if there were any choices in Origins that really had the potential to affect the game in a substantial way. DA2 though had them in abundance.

It would've been nice to not only use some of the quests in DA2 to build connections, but also use your companions to help with your Rise to Power.

I was thinking the other day, what if you used Varric's connections to the Merchant's Guild to invest money in some venture? Still do the Deep Roads Expedition, but you can talk to Varric and he says that his sources tell him that something's going to take off and if you invest 10 sovereigns in it now, you won't regret it. It wouldn't be a companion quest, but it would require a companion to start it.

Then come Act 2, your investment multiplies by 10. So you come out with a 90 sovereign profit. Then, depending on your choices in Act 2, you could see that investment multiply again. It would've helped to make me believe that Hawke has a fortune. And that he's proactive.

I've also had some other ideas, like Aveline giving you tips on bandits outside the city and you go and take care of them. More than just her Jeven quest. I was told that she could provide me with some work. Then that's the only work I'm given? Not cool.

And then there's Hubert's mine. That had potential to help me acquire more money.

4. Stronger plots. Of all Bioware games I played, ME1 probably had the stronger overall plot. By that I mean a consistent, connected plot and not just filler between intro and conclusion. Actual important stuff happening in the middle that directly feeds into the plot, develops it and the characters involved (including antagonists). Sadly, DA:O suffered from this. DA2 even more with barely connected episodic acts that served little purpose and the only semblance of an overall plot was the Templar / mage question that was done very poorily imo.

Agreed. DA2 could've easily done the Mage/Templar debate with ease in all the Acts imo. I know you think Act 2 should be scrapped despite it being amazing, but I think that the game could've used the Arvaarads and the Saarebas as a way to connect to the Mage/Templar debate.

Maybe have Meredith meet with the Arishok and she says that she likes how they control their mages. It would go in line with her downward spiral to insanity caused by the Idol, which could've also been implemented better.

5. More interesting complex human settings. I hate this about Bioware games and a lot of games. Resorting to the supernatural, whether sentient or not, to move the plot. Usualy manifests itself as the "big bad evil". The Blight in DA:O, Reapers in ME, and Idol / Thin Veil / Demons in DA2.  This for me is a lazy way out to avoid having to write a complex human story, with actual political intrigue, social dynamics, character development...etc beyond bare basics. I am sorry to say that Bioware is bad at writing politics and warfare. And was just terrible in DA2. And I quite frankly am getting sick of that same paradigm. It's time for the fantasy genre to grow outside the shadow of LOTR and the one ring. Very related to that, Bioware is too "bipolar". In the sense that even if they say otherwise, their stories ends up being about faction A vs faction B (with the faction against the PC usually villified), and choices end up being about A or B (sometiems C, which is in between and often gets ignored or punished). Whether they want to call it light / dark, paragon/ renegade or not give it names at all is irrelevent. It's about time they write stories that are more complex than that, with multiple factions at work and not just 2. 

True, I don't like constantly seeing the supernatural. I think they should try their hand at a real human game. That said, if they absolutely need to resort to the supernatural, they should do so in a way that still allows for a human game.

EDIT: 6. More proactive protagonist. I want a PC who does more than just react, or act because  NPC X, or email, or voice or letter told him to do something. I want a character that can do something out of his own volition. The closest Bioware game to have that was ME1 and it was still not good enough in that regard imo. Also, I am tired of the PC being a one man army, or a one squad army, essentially killing everything in their way. I want a PC that is more than a killing machine. I want different ways to tackle a quest, options that allow you to utilize skills that involve something other than just killing. I want sidequests like murder investigations, negotiations...etc that needs me and the PC to use our brain. I want to be able to play a PC that does not just kill. DA2 was very bad in that regard. DA:O was mediocre. ME1 and especially Kotor had good sidequests and options in that regard.  

That's the major points that I can think of at the moment.

Bioware's version of Hawke failed spectacularly.

Or as Oghren would say, "Hawke is a spectaculous failure!! *belches and passes out*

[Cutlasskiwi]

Sad Dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...
Before I go, let me just ask a question: Is is that BioWares plots feel railroaded that you are tired of, or is it just that you would like them to change up their structure a bit?

-TSD

Both to be honest. Railroading is virtually impossible to avoid, but I feel that BioWare is not doing that great of a job making it sensible and immersive lately (and I believe one way to improve it is to have stronger central plots that make sense). And I'd prefer some more flexibility without weakening the central plot. I am also tired of their structure.

But above all, I am tired of their writing. It's the same binary mindset and paradigm. It's getting more and more repetitive, less and less interesting imo.  So it's point 5 in my original post that I stress on a lot.

And thanks for the link!

-nods sadly- I can understand what you mean. They did try to spice things up in terms of structure in DA2 though -- though I feel that the plot thread and overaching story wasnt where it needed to be to support their vision with the frame narrativ, which I belive is at least half related to dev time.

I also agree with your point of the morality system, sadly I think this is left over from the D&D days when we used alignments and might be something of a darling at this point. That said I think you could make such a system awesome, but the current one is to broad to have any real meaning. Though this is an interesting topic and one I will add to the list of topics I will need to look into

Also: No problem mate, dont let the massive wall of text scare you!

-The Sad Dragon

I agree. I really appreciate that they tried to mix things up in DA2 and yes it fell short. The framed narrativ really threw me. Not that it wasn't fun to sit and listen to Varric but the way it was executed made me question if it was really necessary to the story. Same with the 10 year story. Why have it 10 years if you're skipping most of that? It didn't feel like 10 years to me.

At least it was nice not to join a order this time around. 

[erynnar]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...
Before I go, let me just ask a question: Is is that BioWares plots feel railroaded that you are tired of, or is it just that you would like them to change up their structure a bit?

-TSD

Both to be honest. Railroading is virtually impossible to avoid, but I feel that BioWare is not doing that great of a job making it sensible and immersive lately (and I believe one way to improve it is to have stronger central plots that make sense). And I'd prefer some more flexibility without weakening the central plot. I am also tired of their structure.

But above all, I am tired of their writing. It's the same binary mindset and paradigm. It's getting more and more repetitive, less and less interesting imo.  So it's point 5 in my original post that I stress on a lot.

And thanks for the link!

Railroading is impossible to avoid. but the journey can be made to feel as if it meanders and wanders and immerses you if done well.  And it has to make sense! Close those plot holes, and if you can't close them all the way, make the hole as small as you can so I'm not jumping across a chasm holding a McGuffin in the shape of say...a glowing red lyrium sword with nasty idol mojo?

[element eater]

@ Knight of phoenix a good list

regarding point 5 i must say i have to no problem with supernatural elements it only becomes an issue to me when its over used or becomes evident that it is simply there as a device to explain a combat or to escape having to explain a tricky situation. I don't see any reason why they cant combine supernatural elements with complex human elements its just unfortunate that often they don't

Out of interest would you not say that bg was good at succesfully making the protagonist seem proactive? in my opinion quite alot the bg series story relies on the protagonist actively pursuing the plot focus rather then just being given orders emails letters etc.

[philippe willaume]

Well the main arc is the conducting element, the cement that makes stuff holds together.
As sad dragons pointed out, if it is not there it creates a feeling of “what the hell are we doing here”
That being said having a main arc, does not necessarily equate to rail-roading, it is just context each subplot or even side quest is to be taken. And the main arc does not need to be obvious in the preceding acts.
So act one can be lets save a Dalish clan, act two can be lets stop the tevinter slaver plot, act 3 can be save the town/region and unmask the templar/blood mage forces behind the scheming of act1 and 2.
You can link act 1 and two retro respectively or have clues in act 1 and two

In DAII each act seems to be separated and very thinly thematically linked.
There are no consequences of your previous choices in the previous acts nor are there any meaningful relationships between acts.
Hence the disjointed feeling; that could be overcome by the same friendship/rivalry system for the main organisations in Kirwall as you have for companions.

Now you choice can not always be meaningful and sometime is a good to have you did you best but things did not turn out the way you expected. It is good to have a mix of both or at least some events that are much harder to influence and/or much more dependant of your past actions/decisions

Now frame narrative is just a device to present the story, and even if it has an inpact on how each part of the story is presented in relation to each other, it does have a direct influence of how different part of the story interacts together.

[LunarPhase]

While many of you do make a good point and I appreciate your contribution, let's stay on topic here.
The OP dictates (no pun intended), that we need discuss elements for upcoming DLC's/expansions and possible enhancements to the Dragon Age game series in general.

There are excellent points and not so excellent points to make. But if you do so, please do add your ideas on how each one could be improved. Once again, thank you for your input.

Modifié par LunarPhase, 29 juin 2011 - 12:37 .