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The Future of the Dragon Age Series: DLCs, Expansions, DA3 and beyond.


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#151
Darth Krytie

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casa de morte wrote...
I really, honestly hope DA3 never happens and I LOVED DAO, so it is painful to say that.


I think that's weird, honestly. If you have intention on going on with the series, then why would you wish for it not to exist at all, especially as some people really did enjoy the direction it went in?


I've played a lot of Bioware Games. Yes, they're not perfect. I've yet to play one that was. The main thing that keeps me coming back is I'm not stuck role playing a straight, white male. More than that, the choice is meaningful. Sure, I could go and play Fable or Sims, but those games lack any sort of depth and are only addictive repetition. All Bioware games have a story. They have depth. Moreover, someone like me, who isn't the type of person who can beat any game on So Hard You'll Cry dificulty, can still enjoy a really well made game, with a well-written story, and beautiful graphics.

For the future of the series, I'd like to see more of what I have. My greatest lament is that there's no Knights of the Old Republic DLC.

I hope we get more DA2 DLC (I actually like DLC and the concept of it. I can waste ten bucks on food I'll never eat again or going to a movie in a theatre I'll see once...so being able to play a two-hour addition any time I want, especially if there's something new in replays--like Legacy...is a good deal.)

I would like to see more Anders and more Fenris. A full out expansion would be lovely, especially if it's like Legacy.

For DA3, I hope we see more of Thedas. I do not want to go back to Hawke or back to the Warden. (Though if there was a way to import our Wardens/Hawke for a cameo, that'd be really awesome) I want to go back to different races. I like playing as an Elf or a Dwarf. (Maybe even a Qunari or something else.) And have a new story. Though, I guess it could be difficult if it's voiced still. (And I loved the voiced protaganists.) I'd especially like to deal with the fallout of Hawke's actions in another area of the world, to see where this mage/templar feud ends. Plus, I'd like to know more about the Old Gods and where all that is headed.

(I would be grateful, however, if you fix the inventory and party camp stuff) Reusing environments doesn't really bother me much because it seems to me a simple matter of economics and resources.

#152
FieryDove

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Stanley Woo wrote...

That's my hope for those fans who were disappointed--that they find our future Dragon Age products worthy of coming back for. :)


DA3? DA MMO? DA RTS? DA TBS? What! You can't taunt us like this. Posted Image

#153
billy the squid

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Ariella wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet, my inital question was and still is, why was a 180 done in the first place and what direction will the franchise take. Personally, DA2 was poor to rather mediocre and found myself to be largely indifferent to events and characters. Have I, or those who have been disappointed, forsaken the franchise? No, I don't think so, but other developers have provided products more akin to my tastes. So the franchise becomes more of a wait and see after release and what other competitors have in the works, rather than a given buy or pre order.


The 180 (as you call it; I didn't find it so) was done in the first place in response to criticisms of DAO both on the forum level and on the level of professional reviews. A word that was tossed around a lot in regard to DAO was generic. Another was "rip off". In the latter occurance, you can name your favorite author as many were thrown about: Martin, Jordan, and Tolkien being the most common. So the 180 was done, at least partially, in an attempt to give the franchise a more unique stamp. As I recall, the majority of the prelease promotional interviews etc mention this at least once.

You mention competitors, but really, does anyone else but Bioware do party and story based, custom player character games anymore? Bethesda's known for its open world, CD Project Red has only produced two games in the RPG genre, while story based have no customization and no party. Obsidian hasn't managed a successful IP yet (which is unfortunate because I kinda liked AP). Larian is coming out with a Divinity 3 last I heard, but again, not really party based and as much as I liked Divinity 2, the Slayer/DK didn't really have much in the way of personality and the story was very linear. I have no idea what if anything Lionhead has in store for Fable, but again, not exactly party based and very limited in the PC's personality. Radon's, of course, developing in the Dark Eye universe, but I could see where some people would find the statistical bent of the DE system a little much. Which pretty much leaves Bioware in a niche all by itself. So unless one is really broad in the concept of competition, no one else in the market does what Bioware does: deep story with a living cast of characters and a player character is customizable and personable.

But YMMV :wub:


It was not I who called it 180, it was Mr. Laidlaw in his defence of DA2 after the release. Whether it was an actual 180 is largely irrelevant, the changes were percieved as drastic, regardless of the realities, and it is perceptions that will dictate how a product fares to a degree. ie marketing it as "the sequal to the RPG of 2009" created expectation and preconcieved notions of what is would be. Which predictably took a nose dive when the perception that DA2 was nothing like it predecessor and was rushed, was blanketed across the internet, regardless of whether it was or not.

The competition Bioware courts is going to be from RPG developers, its market is not going to be individuals who will only touch customisation and party based games only, that is far too deliniated and not a viable segment to support development costs. Particularly as I don't think that segment actually exists as a large player market, rather there is a nebulous concept of what is an RPG and what key concepts attract certain players to it. There might be certain aspects which will pull some RPG players towards a product more than others, but I don't belive that gamers will stick to such narrowly defined core concepts ie. customisation, party formation only etc.

These are Bioware's core competencies, they differentiate it from its competitors, who will try to take market share off each other, on such points Bioware has generally done a very good job, but it does not guarantee Bioware a viable market share. Particularly when players will jump from game to game such as TW2, Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fable (but considering their last outing was rather poor I wouldn't consider them a serious contender at least for the meanwhile.).  If I have £60 and I want to purchase these games, which ones will I go for? Each one has a different perception among players and exerts a different pull, via differentiation of the product from others through differing game aspects and design concepts.  

For instance, (I know I'm using TW2, and I'd rather not, but as I haven't played Skyrim or Deus Ex 3 I can't really comment so I'm using the closest release in the RPGesque genre for comparison.)

The perception is that TW2's storyline was far more in depth than that of DA2's, the characters, NPCs also have recieved a lot of praise and it capitalised on the mature setting as many polls show that most gamers are in their 20's or older. These were part of Bioware's selling points, even in DAO, a dark fantasy, which it wasn't. It doesn't mean that DA as a franchise is defunct, it still has selling points which TW2 lacks, such as party members, and customisation etc. Yet, even here customisation and dialogue were more limited along with attributes and equipment etc.

TW2 has vastly more equipment and associated customisation. But, no protagonist customisation, you are Geralt, it is predefined, and some people won't like it, it is inevitable. But, unless that segment is numbering in the hundreds of thousands, it is not something to aim for exclusively and ignore the fact that people will buy TW2 even if they bought DA2. It is still competition for the money in one's wallet whichever way one examines it, especially if the reception of one creates the notion that the other developer is "the" RPG developer to watch.

As an aside, factor in graphical issues, I know it won't be so important to some, but to a lot it may be a deciding factor in a purchase on an undecided issue. This was not one of Bioware's competencies, but that seems to have shifted in ME3, as it overlaps somewhat with the more action orientated shooter market which is heavy on the graphics.

Bioware has a niche, what it is known for, and may I add, what it was very good at. That niche always have a smaller portion of players who exclusively support it, due to a particular RPG taste, but the vast majority will shift from one game to another depending on what it provides in comparison with the others creating a certain amount of overlap between market segments. It causes problems when a franchise becomes associated with a percieved poorly designed game, look at the comments on PC gamer on Deus EX, they gave it 94%, the first comment was "is this a real 94% or a DA2, 94%" PC gamer's association with giving inflated scores to a game which has then been harshly critcised has not done it any favours.

By the same token, DA2 suffers from the same stigmatism, however just or unjust it may be. EA themselves acknowledged that the game disappointed a lot of fans, of course couched in the usual PR drivel of a PLC. The market share remains under pressure, it will always garner some sales, but a lot of brand equity and a sizable portion of the original fanbase has either disappeared or is indulging in a wait and see attitude, particularly as I don't think it really attracted enough new gamers to make up for the potential loss of its original base.

As such, if DA2 or Bioware had no or little competition in that niche as you stated, the reception and stock shifted should have been similar to DAO's as that market should have supported the game's launch, due to the lack of competition for party based RPGs, theoretically at least on this premis, yet it didn't . As I don't see gamers sitting on their hands until DA3 comes out, there is the educated guess that they have gone elsewhere for their RPGs, at least for the moment. Thus Bioware's competition is othe RPG developers, what it does makes it a stand out as a marketable quality, but the relevant market is always subject to challenge and erosion from other developers inspite of this.

As to Dragon Age as a franchise, it would be something I would keep an eye on, rather than consider a spent IP, but I remain mindful of the direction and problems in DA2.Posted Image

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 août 2011 - 01:42 .


#154
Gunderic

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect those who didn't like DA2 and use it as a rationale for no longer being a fan of the franchise or no longer being "in it for the long haul." Really, if just one game can change a person's mind that easily and severely, it'll probably be just as easy to change it back again. That's my hope for those fans who were disappointed--that they find our future Dragon Age products worthy of coming back for. :)


Yeah, one sequel from a series of two main games, and the promise in interviews from BioWare of keeping the 'critically and commercially very successful,' so-called 'new direction' ( there's nothing new about it ) of the franchise for future titles.

Modifié par Gunderic, 05 août 2011 - 08:42 .


#155
Gunderic

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Ariella wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet, my inital question was and still is, why was a 180 done in the first place and what direction will the franchise take. Personally, DA2 was poor to rather mediocre and found myself to be largely indifferent to events and characters. Have I, or those who have been disappointed, forsaken the franchise? No, I don't think so, but other developers have provided products more akin to my tastes. So the franchise becomes more of a wait and see after release and what other competitors have in the works, rather than a given buy or pre order.


You mention competitors, but really, does anyone else but Bioware do party and story based, custom player character games anymore? Bethesda's known for its open world, CD Project Red has only produced two games in the RPG genre, while story based have no customization and no party. Obsidian hasn't managed a successful IP yet (which is unfortunate because I kinda liked AP).


Obsidian has produced New Vegas, which is superior and very likely more highly regarded by the original Fallout fan community than anything BIoWare has made recently. You didn't quite clarify if you were discussing an original IP ( don't understand the need for a distinction either ), but Obsidian developers have worked with the Fallout franchise as Black Isle long before Bethesda has, which was actually originally owned by developers who went on to found Troika.

CDProjekt has only produced two games, but BioWare's catalogue of releases is pretty big in its entirety, so I'd prefer to compare how their more recent games hold out against the competition.

It's true though; we don't have that many AAA developers focusing on RPG's right now.

#156
Gunderic

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Destination Unknown wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

How about a DLC that's actually good?


Do expound on your thought.  Thanks =)


I wrote a small review ( sort of ) about the DLC in another topic a while ago.

In short: there are some definite improvements in the mechanical aspects of gameplay ( more enemy variety, less waves etc. ), which is nice. It's an okay DLC for people that liked Dragon Age 2's combat and enjoy the more dungeon crawler type of gameplay.

The add-on was really lacking in narrative elements though, which was my major gripe, I suppose.

#157
KennethAFTopp

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect those who didn't like DA2 and use it as a rationale for no longer being a fan of the franchise or no longer being "in it for the long haul." Really, if just one game can change a person's mind that easily and severely, it'll probably be just as easy to change it back again. That's my hope for those fans who were disappointed--that they find our future Dragon Age products worthy of coming back for. :)

Not to be a Douche, but based on the comments from the Developer's then that's a no from me.

#158
Iwasdrunkbro

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect those who didn't like DA2 and use it as a rationale for no longer being a fan of the franchise or no longer being "in it for the long haul." Really, if just one game can change a person's mind that easily and severely, it'll probably be just as easy to change it back again. That's my hope for those fans who were disappointed--that they find our future Dragon Age products worthy of coming back for. :)


Ill attempt to be as honest as I possibly can. Bioware hasnt  impressed me or alot of people since Origins. Awakening was an overpriced complete let down and it really just seems like Bioware took all the negative feedback from that 'expansion' and did nothing about it. The community said they didnt like the shallow characters that could only be spoken to at certain times and DA2 did nothing but 'improve' on that. The entire formula (aside from combat) was taken and 'improved on' with DA2 and nothing that made Origins successful was used. Its almost like you purposely want to make bad games that only cater to button mashers and then complain that your 'real' fans arent there to support you. Take Mass Effect 2 for example. People said they didnt want a shooter with rpg elements. What did we get? A shooter stripped of almost all rpg elements (like exploration) that was too dumbed down to even have a real loot system. Take this for example:


'Absolutely. Hands down. We’ve done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too – what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin’s Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty and lots of RPG games too.'

You still dont get it. Rpgs are not supposed to be Call of Duty. THAT crowd does not like STORY! THAT crowd likes to button mash. Do you understand that? You can not make both sides happy because all you do is make both sides angry. One side screams 'dumbed down' while the other side screams 'too much story'! All this while you stomp the name you've created for yourselves as the best rpg developer in the industry while letting down your core fans over and over. Do you have any idea how many youtube videos I watch of people that dont even listen to the conversations in DA2? They just skip through it all until they can get back into combat.

You ask for honest feedback and oppinion well heres mine: If you cant listen to the people that actually play your games because you are making your games to appeal to another genre, how are you ever going to make in the mmo market? People that play mmos are not going to put up with playing something they dont enjoy. They will not listen to empty promises of 'this will help us improve' especially when they have somewhere else to turn. Where do rpg gamers have to turn? Fable? Come on. You have the rpg market cornered... until Bethesda fixes that with Skyrim. You are a new comer to the mmo market on the other hand.

#159
Savber100

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect those who didn't like DA2 and use it as a rationale for no longer being a fan of the franchise or no longer being "in it for the long haul." Really, if just one game can change a person's mind that easily and severely, it'll probably be just as easy to change it back again. That's my hope for those fans who were disappointed--that they find our future Dragon Age products worthy of coming back for. :)


Ill attempt to be as honest as I possibly can. Bioware hasnt  impressed me or alot of people since Origins. Awakening was an overpriced complete let down and it really just seems like Bioware took all the negative feedback from that 'expansion' and did nothing about it. The community said they didnt like the shallow characters that could only be spoken to at certain times and DA2 did nothing but 'improve' on that. The entire formula (aside from combat) was taken and 'improved on' with DA2 and nothing that made Origins successful was used. Its almost like you purposely want to make bad games that only cater to button mashers and then complain that your 'real' fans arent there to support you. Take Mass Effect 2 for example. People said they didnt want a shooter with rpg elements. What did we get? A shooter stripped of almost all rpg elements (like exploration) that was too dumbed down to even have a real loot system. Take this for example:


Actually, Mass Effect was always a shooter/RPG so when Bioware went with the shooter route with RPG elements it was fine. I expected it from this franchise and I enjoyed it. It was a good sequel to ME's original vision of making a good shooter with choices and consequences that stretches across a trilogy. (And yes, that was the original vision of ME)

However, I expected DA2 to be a sequel to DA:O where the emphasis is on the world of Thedas and the gameplay akin to being the "spiritual successor to BALDUR'S GATE 2" 

In my opinion, I didn't get this and was disappointed. 

So yes, it's the issue of understanding your current audience and your original vision which was DA = spiritual successor to BG and ME=Shooter with C&C. 

Result? 

ME2 = great game

DA2 = disappointing game 

Was it wrong for my expectations for a sequel to DA:O to be similar in terms of desgin, gameplay etc but with graphical tweaks and improved mechanics from the original like more impact of origins on the story etc? 

#160
FieryDove

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Savber100 wrote...

Actually, Mass Effect was always a shooter/RPG so when Bioware went with the shooter route with RPG elements it was fine.


I don't know. Very early on ME1 I posted that I thought it was a squad-based shooter with RPG elements and got *the glare* from the devs. I am thinking at first they wanted a Scifi rpg but that changed sometime in development.

I didn't like ME2 half as much as 1 so...for what its worth. Nothing I suppose. lol

#161
Iwasdrunkbro

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Savber100 wrote...

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect those who didn't like DA2 and use it as a rationale for no longer being a fan of the franchise or no longer being "in it for the long haul." Really, if just one game can change a person's mind that easily and severely, it'll probably be just as easy to change it back again. That's my hope for those fans who were disappointed--that they find our future Dragon Age products worthy of coming back for. :)


Ill attempt to be as honest as I possibly can. Bioware hasnt  impressed me or alot of people since Origins. Awakening was an overpriced complete let down and it really just seems like Bioware took all the negative feedback from that 'expansion' and did nothing about it. The community said they didnt like the shallow characters that could only be spoken to at certain times and DA2 did nothing but 'improve' on that. The entire formula (aside from combat) was taken and 'improved on' with DA2 and nothing that made Origins successful was used. Its almost like you purposely want to make bad games that only cater to button mashers and then complain that your 'real' fans arent there to support you. Take Mass Effect 2 for example. People said they didnt want a shooter with rpg elements. What did we get? A shooter stripped of almost all rpg elements (like exploration) that was too dumbed down to even have a real loot system. Take this for example:


Actually, Mass Effect was always a shooter/RPG so when Bioware went with the shooter route with RPG elements it was fine. I expected it from this franchise and I enjoyed it. It was a good sequel to ME's original vision of making a good shooter with choices and consequences that stretches across a trilogy. (And yes, that was the original vision of ME)

However, I expected DA2 to be a sequel to DA:O where the emphasis is on the world of Thedas and the gameplay akin to being the "spiritual successor to BALDUR'S GATE 2" 

In my opinion, I didn't get this and was disappointed. 

So yes, it's the issue of understanding your current audience and your original vision which was DA = spiritual successor to BG and ME=Shooter with C&C. 

Result? 

ME2 = great game

DA2 = disappointing game 

Was it wrong for my expectations for a sequel to DA:O to be similar in terms of desgin, gameplay etc but with graphical tweaks and improved mechanics from the original like more impact of origins on the story etc? 


See I thought Mass Effect was always an rpg first and a shooter second. Mass Effect 2 did have some great combat (especially vanguard), but it went away from what made the orignal an rpg. So in a sense the series went from being an rpg shooter to a shooter with rpg elements. But yes this is about Dragon Age so back on topic.

No I dont think you are wrong at all for expecting DA2 to be more like Origins. The series was marked as the spiritual successor to BG from the start. Was the combat bad? I wouldnt say it was bad but it could have been improved without turning the entire series on its head. Look at Fallout 3. Great game but there were certain things about the combat that mods made alot better. New Vegas looked into this and saw how it could be improved and actually used parts of what the community did to make the game better. They didnt turn the entire game upside down and make a brand new game though.

#162
John Epler

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Folks, there are plenty of threads in which to discuss what you felt were the issues/concerns with DA2. Let's try to keep this one dedicated to the topic at hand - the future of the Dragon Age franchise. Obviously, there will be some overlap, but we're well off-topic now.

Thanks.

#163
Iwasdrunkbro

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JohnEpler wrote...

Folks, there are plenty of threads in which to discuss what you felt were the issues/concerns with DA2. Let's try to keep this one dedicated to the topic at hand - the future of the Dragon Age franchise. Obviously, there will be some overlap, but we're well off-topic now.

Thanks.


Agreed.

I think we are going to see an expansion. Devs have stated that they would like to fix some core issues but cant exactly do that through dlc. Hawke is discapered and nobody knows to where. Possibly out to find the warden (which would be cool). I dont know how you would bring the warden into a future game though consider people on the pc used so many mods that it seems to be impossible. What happens if my origins save had a bunch of mods that made my warden look like a clown...
not saying he is or that I even like clowns but Posted Image

#164
Savber100

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JohnEpler wrote...

Folks, there are plenty of threads in which to discuss what you felt were the issues/concerns with DA2. Let's try to keep this one dedicated to the topic at hand - the future of the Dragon Age franchise. Obviously, there will be some overlap, but we're well off-topic now.

Thanks.


I agree but my original point remains.

For future DA releases, be honest with what you're aiming at. Tell us what to expect rather than sucker punching us with stripped features like no squad customization, no isometric camera, and much more especially after promising that DA2 is similar to the DA experience we all know and love just with faster combat. 

Honestly, if you do this, I think Bioware would be more admired for that honesty rather than pretending to be something that it isn't. :)

Modifié par Savber100, 05 août 2011 - 11:31 .


#165
Atakuma

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Savber100 wrote...

For future DA releases, be honest with what you're aiming at. Tell us what to expect rather than sucker punching us with stripped features like no squad customization, no isometric camera, and much more especially after promising that DA2 is similar to the DA experience we all know and love just with faster combat. 

They discussed both of those things prior to release.

#166
FieryDove

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Atakuma wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

For future DA releases, be honest with what you're aiming at. Tell us what to expect rather than sucker punching us with stripped features like no squad customization, no isometric camera, and much more especially after promising that DA2 is similar to the DA experience we all know and love just with faster combat. 

They discussed both of those things prior to release.


Yes, Tac Cam was supposed to be in along with AA on consoles. The tac cam talk died before the game came out and we were worried. Some devs even went as far as to say the demo was an old build so such little things would change/be changed. But things happen.

Yes...I miss my cam, Aoeing is not so fun without it. Posted ImagePosted Image

I wonder if an expansion is coming for DA2? And toolset! Posted Image

#167
Iwasdrunkbro

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dont even get me started with the toolset...

#168
Savber100

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Atakuma wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

For future DA releases, be honest with what you're aiming at. Tell us what to expect rather than sucker punching us with stripped features like no squad customization, no isometric camera, and much more especially after promising that DA2 is similar to the DA experience we all know and love just with faster combat. 

They discussed both of those things prior to release.


Maybe sucker punched is the wrong word.. 

When DA2 was first announced, Bioware made it appear it was with Origins with some improvements. Sure the origins was taken away but many still felt that the game would be a true sequel to Origins. 

Then, the rumors started. No full squad customization? No isometric camera? Plenty of us hoped that it isn't true and we never learned about this until months prior to DA2's release.

When the devs FINALLY confirmed it after the hype began, they left us with some non-sensical reasons. 

The isometric camera was stripped so that we can have differently-structured roofs? Really? :huh:

Signature looks so that these characters will be more recognizable? Wait.. what? :unsure:

If I got these reasons wrong, it's further proof that communication was not CLEAR between the devs and the fans. 

After that, the issue was dodged and complaints were launched, no response for Laidlaw and Co except that the tune was changed. 

Now it was more "this isn't DA:Origins 2". To me, that sudden move was a punch to the guts. It didn't help that the communication made many fans feel like DA:O was unimportant etc. 

In fact, Brent Knowles, the former lead designer for DA, even said that

"To be honest as a fan of the first game some of the comments being said [by marketing] are marginally offensive... kind of like telling the Dragon Age 1 fans that don't have good taste for liking the first one. I'm sure that's mostly miscommunication but I can understand the frustration in some fans at how they are being spoken to."


Source: blog.brentknowles.com/2011/02/13/dragon-age-2/
So yes, better communication if you please. :wizard:

Modifié par Savber100, 05 août 2011 - 11:54 .


#169
Atakuma

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FieryDove wrote...
I wonder if an expansion is coming for DA2? And toolset! Posted Image


From a business standpoint, I don't think releasing an expansion pack would be a good decision at this point, seeing how poorly DA2 sold. I do however, want a toolset.

#170
Iwasdrunkbro

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Atakuma wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
I wonder if an expansion is coming for DA2? And toolset! Posted Image


From a business standpoint, I don't think releasing an expansion pack would be a good decision at this point, seeing how poorly DA2 sold. I do however, want a toolset.


They only have themselves to blame. Why would you change the direction of a successful product and then tell the people that dont like it that we have bad tastes? Im done ranting about this and I do need to stay on topic but it just bothers me that its almost like the fans are to blame for this not the people that actually made the decisions that led to ...what we have. This series was supposed to be the spiritual successor to BG and it seems like nobody over there at Bioware even cares anymore.

I see the Future of the Dragon Age series being more of the same and less of what people actually wanted from the start. I see Mass Effect with swords.

#171
Ariella

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billy the squid wrote...

Ariella wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet, my inital question was and still is, why was a 180 done in the first place and what direction will the franchise take. Personally, DA2 was poor to rather mediocre and found myself to be largely indifferent to events and characters. Have I, or those who have been disappointed, forsaken the franchise? No, I don't think so, but other developers have provided products more akin to my tastes. So the franchise becomes more of a wait and see after release and what other competitors have in the works, rather than a given buy or pre order.


The 180 (as you call it; I didn't find it so) was done in the first place in response to criticisms of DAO both on the forum level and on the level of professional reviews. A word that was tossed around a lot in regard to DAO was generic. Another was "rip off". In the latter occurance, you can name your favorite author as many were thrown about: Martin, Jordan, and Tolkien being the most common. So the 180 was done, at least partially, in an attempt to give the franchise a more unique stamp. As I recall, the majority of the prelease promotional interviews etc mention this at least once.

You mention competitors, but really, does anyone else but Bioware do party and story based, custom player character games anymore? Bethesda's known for its open world, CD Project Red has only produced two games in the RPG genre, while story based have no customization and no party. Obsidian hasn't managed a successful IP yet (which is unfortunate because I kinda liked AP). Larian is coming out with a Divinity 3 last I heard, but again, not really party based and as much as I liked Divinity 2, the Slayer/DK didn't really have much in the way of personality and the story was very linear. I have no idea what if anything Lionhead has in store for Fable, but again, not exactly party based and very limited in the PC's personality. Radon's, of course, developing in the Dark Eye universe, but I could see where some people would find the statistical bent of the DE system a little much. Which pretty much leaves Bioware in a niche all by itself. So unless one is really broad in the concept of competition, no one else in the market does what Bioware does: deep story with a living cast of characters and a player character is customizable and personable.

But YMMV :wub:


It was not I who called it 180, it was Mr. Laidlaw in his defence of DA2 after the release. Whether it was an actual 180 is largely irrelevant, the changes were percieved as drastic, regardless of the realities, and it is perceptions that will dictate how a product fares to a degree. ie marketing it as "the sequal to the RPG of 2009" created expectation and preconcieved notions of what is would be. Which predictably took a nose dive when the perception that DA2 was nothing like it predecessor and was rushed, was blanketed across the internet, regardless of whether it was or not.

The competition Bioware courts is going to be from RPG developers, its market is not going to be individuals who will only touch customisation and party based games only, that is far too deliniated and not a viable segment to support development costs. Particularly as I don't think that segment actually exists as a large player market, rather there is a nebulous concept of what is an RPG and what key concepts attract certain players to it. There might be certain aspects which will pull some RPG players towards a product more than others, but I don't belive that gamers will stick to such narrowly defined core concepts ie. customisation, party formation only etc.

These are Bioware's core competencies, they differentiate it from its competitors, who will try to take market share off each other, on such points Bioware has generally done a very good job, but it does not guarantee Bioware a viable market share. Particularly when players will jump from game to game such as TW2, Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fable (but considering their last outing was rather poor I wouldn't consider them a serious contender at least for the meanwhile.).  If I have £60 and I want to purchase these games, which ones will I go for? Each one has a different perception among players and exerts a different pull, via differentiation of the product from others through differing game aspects and design concepts.  

For instance, (I know I'm using TW2, and I'd rather not, but as I haven't played Skyrim or Deus Ex 3 I can't really comment so I'm using the closest release in the RPGesque genre for comparison.)

The perception is that TW2's storyline was far more in depth than that of DA2's, the characters, NPCs also have recieved a lot of praise and it capitalised on the mature setting as many polls show that most gamers are in their 20's or older. These were part of Bioware's selling points, even in DAO, a dark fantasy, which it wasn't. It doesn't mean that DA as a franchise is defunct, it still has selling points which TW2 lacks, such as party members, and customisation etc. Yet, even here customisation and dialogue were more limited along with attributes and equipment etc.

TW2 has vastly more equipment and associated customisation. But, no protagonist customisation, you are Geralt, it is predefined, and some people won't like it, it is inevitable. But, unless that segment is numbering in the hundreds of thousands, it is not something to aim for exclusively and ignore the fact that people will buy TW2 even if they bought DA2. It is still competition for the money in one's wallet whichever way one examines it, especially if the reception of one creates the notion that the other developer is "the" RPG developer to watch.

As an aside, factor in graphical issues, I know it won't be so important to some, but to a lot it may be a deciding factor in a purchase on an undecided issue. This was not one of Bioware's competencies, but that seems to have shifted in ME3, as it overlaps somewhat with the more action orientated shooter market which is heavy on the graphics.

Bioware has a niche, what it is known for, and may I add, what it was very good at. That niche always have a smaller portion of players who exclusively support it, due to a particular RPG taste, but the vast majority will shift from one game to another depending on what it provides in comparison with the others creating a certain amount of overlap between market segments. It causes problems when a franchise becomes associated with a percieved poorly designed game, look at the comments on PC gamer on Deus EX, they gave it 94%, the first comment was "is this a real 94% or a DA2, 94%" PC gamer's association with giving inflated scores to a game which has then been harshly critcised has not done it any favours.

By the same token, DA2 suffers from the same stigmatism, however just or unjust it may be. EA themselves acknowledged that the game disappointed a lot of fans, of course couched in the usual PR drivel of a PLC. The market share remains under pressure, it will always garner some sales, but a lot of brand equity and a sizable portion of the original fanbase has either disappeared or is indulging in a wait and see attitude, particularly as I don't think it really attracted enough new gamers to make up for the potential loss of its original base.

As such, if DA2 or Bioware had no or little competition in that niche as you stated, the reception and stock shifted should have been similar to DAO's as that market should have supported the game's launch, due to the lack of competition for party based RPGs, theoretically at least on this premis, yet it didn't . As I don't see gamers sitting on their hands until DA3 comes out, there is the educated guess that they have gone elsewhere for their RPGs, at least for the moment. Thus Bioware's competition is othe RPG developers, what it does makes it a stand out as a marketable quality, but the relevant market is always subject to challenge and erosion from other developers inspite of this.

As to Dragon Age as a franchise, it would be something I would keep an eye on, rather than consider a spent IP, but I remain mindful of the direction and problems in DA2.Posted Image


I didn't sit on my hands waiting for Dragon Age 2, and I don't expect I will for DA3 either. However, that being said I wouldn't compare games like Witcher or Elder Scrolls with DA (can't speak to Deus Ex as I've never played the series), as they are VERY different games. I own more than a few ES games and have both of CD Red's outings, and I haven't finished any of them out of sheer lack of interest, so I find it hard to see where someone like myself, who's been playing Bioware games since Black Isle, would find them to be as satisfying as a Bioware made game. Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the way I see it.

You're right that perception plays a role, however I find it ....extreme, for a person who says he or she is a fan of Bioware to suddenly say "to hell with it" over one game. If such an attitude prevailed back during the release of the original NWN, Bioware probably would have fallen off the developer map. I understand disappointment of expectations, but to such a vocal extent makes me wonder.

I'm no economist, and I have no idea what EA's market share is at the moment, though from the little economics that stuck with me from college, there should be other factors, unless someone has broke down the game market into genre sub markets.

I was speaking about competition in the sense of taste. Yes, Bioware competes for market share with Bethseda et al, but no one has really managed the same magic as Bioware. You bring up TW2 on customization. Geralt can't be customized in looks, one is forced to finish the "Witcher training" skill line before any other, whereas DA2 is free with point spending. There is no real difference outside of that in the PC customization, as both Hawke and Geralt can wear whatever armor etc the player finds and chooses to use. The major "customization" complains in the area of gear come with the NPCs who do have their own armor, everything else is up for grabs. Of course, this doesn't exist in TW2 at all, as all the NPCs are computer controlled and scripted to when they will join you or not. 

I think most of the hype built around CDPR, for example, is that it's the underdog right now, and generally speaking people like to root for the underdog. In that, yes, CDPR has replaced Bioware, but as Bioware proves, you can't be the scrappy underdog forever, and Bioware was still an "underdog" when it first produced Mass Effect, it's own first IP.  This is one of the reasons I have trouble seeing CDRP as true competition for Bioware.

The only true competition I see would be Bethesda, but the games are so different that it's hard to know where the overlap is. And as I said, I can't comment on the producers of Deus Ex because I've never played one of those games, and I was always under the impression of them being action adventures not story RPGs.

#172
Guest_PresidentCowboy_*

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Savber100 wrote...

ME2 = great game

DA2 = disappointing game


It's the opposite for me.

#173
nitefyre410

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Darth Krytie wrote...

casa de morte wrote...
I really, honestly hope DA3 never happens and I LOVED DAO, so it is painful to say that.


I think that's weird, honestly. If you have intention on going on with the series, then why would you wish for it not to exist at all, especially as some people really did enjoy the direction it went in?


I've played a lot of Bioware Games. Yes, they're not perfect. I've yet to play one that was. The main thing that keeps me coming back is I'm not stuck role playing a straight, white male. More than that, the choice is meaningful. Sure, I could go and play Fable or Sims, but those games lack any sort of depth and are only addictive repetition. All Bioware games have a story. They have depth. Moreover, someone like me, who isn't the type of person who can beat any game on So Hard You'll Cry dificulty, can still enjoy a really well made game, with a well-written story, and beautiful graphics.

For the future of the series, I'd like to see more of what I have. My greatest lament is that there's no Knights of the Old Republic DLC.

I hope we get more DA2 DLC (I actually like DLC and the concept of it. I can waste ten bucks on food I'll never eat again or going to a movie in a theatre I'll see once...so being able to play a two-hour addition any time I want, especially if there's something new in replays--like Legacy...is a good deal.)

I would like to see more Anders and more Fenris. A full out expansion would be lovely, especially if it's like Legacy.

For DA3, I hope we see more of Thedas. I do not want to go back to Hawke or back to the Warden. (Though if there was a way to import our Wardens/Hawke for a cameo, that'd be really awesome) I want to go back to different races. I like playing as an Elf or a Dwarf. (Maybe even a Qunari or something else.) And have a new story. Though, I guess it could be difficult if it's voiced still. (And I loved the voiced protaganists.) I'd especially like to deal with the fallout of Hawke's actions in another area of the world, to see where this mage/templar feud ends. Plus, I'd like to know more about the Old Gods and where all that is headed.

(I would be grateful, however, if you fix the inventory and party camp stuff) Reusing environments doesn't really bother me much because it seems to me a simple matter of economics and resources.





The Bold statement -  It just boggles my mind  - so Bioware should just call it  quits and give.  "Oh DA 2  was not recieved well scrap the series - forget all the time, money and manpower we put into it."

I look at like this

Marvel and DC  survied the 90's   where there  as point where it looked like it was over.   Now the its looking a like come back - though book sales are low but thats more because digital books  transitioning in.  Still have movies, games, etc. etc.  

Fighting games survived the first part of the Decade  where  they were non existent   now they are back strong, 

Bioware and DA will survive this - the series has not even been around 5 years they just started   give them time to fix it. 

Man if Red Sox's fans can survive  86's of not having a world series I think  DA fans make it through a game was not as good as it could have been but not terrible.    

I for one am  looking forward to seeing what they do from  here and seeing the make the Series better and regressing back to DA:O is not moving forward its is going backwards.

#174
Ariella

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Gunderic wrote...

Ariella wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet, my inital question was and still is, why was a 180 done in the first place and what direction will the franchise take. Personally, DA2 was poor to rather mediocre and found myself to be largely indifferent to events and characters. Have I, or those who have been disappointed, forsaken the franchise? No, I don't think so, but other developers have provided products more akin to my tastes. So the franchise becomes more of a wait and see after release and what other competitors have in the works, rather than a given buy or pre order.


You mention competitors, but really, does anyone else but Bioware do party and story based, custom player character games anymore? Bethesda's known for its open world, CD Project Red has only produced two games in the RPG genre, while story based have no customization and no party. Obsidian hasn't managed a successful IP yet (which is unfortunate because I kinda liked AP).


Obsidian has produced New Vegas, which is superior and very likely more highly regarded by the original Fallout fan community than anything BIoWare has made recently. You didn't quite clarify if you were discussing an original IP ( don't understand the need for a distinction either ), but Obsidian developers have worked with the Fallout franchise as Black Isle long before Bethesda has, which was actually originally owned by developers who went on to found Troika.

CDProjekt has only produced two games, but BioWare's catalogue of releases is pretty big in its entirety, so I'd prefer to compare how their more recent games hold out against the competition.

It's true though; we don't have that many AAA developers focusing on RPG's right now.


The distinction on original IPs is that the developer can managed on its own to create a viable world and sustain it outside of other factors (like it being based on a book series or RPG TT series). Obsidian might have had people who worked on the original 2 Fallouts, and that's an advantage, but they've basically been doing sequels that other people don't or won't pick up. They've done one original thing on their own and it did lousy (again which sucks because I really liked the story of AP and I liked the characters). New Vegas is nice, but it's just an extention of material that now belongs to someone else, where Bioware has 2 IPs that are well known and bring the fans, and their money.

Look at it this way, an IP has several advantages in that you're not forced to stay within someone else's guide lines and you don't have to share the profit with someone else. The former has been Obsidian's achilles heel since Kotor2 (which I loved despite the fact Lucas Arts ****** them over).

That's why I believe an original IP is the final test of a game developer.

#175
Darth Krytie

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nitefyre410 wrote...

Man if Red Sox's fans can survive  86's of not having a world series I think  DA fans make it through a game was not as good as it could have been but not terrible.    

I for one am  looking forward to seeing what they do from  here and seeing the make the Series better and regressing back to DA:O is not moving forward its is going backwards.


And when the Red Sox won, I was there at the victory parade (both times, actually)

Moreover, DA2 wasn't a bad game...even if you agree with all the criticism (and I don't), it's still better than the best of some other games.

They can only get better at DA, the more information they have. They have more collective data than we do and they know the sales better than we do.

Anyhow, onto the point.

I loved Leliana's DLC. I would love if they're were DLC based on those short stories the writers posted to introduce us to our new companions, to show how Fenris, Isabela, Anders, and Merril got to Kirkwall/Sundermount. I'd really enjoy something like that.