One of my favorite character archetypes has to be the arcane swordsman, hands-down, but it has some...quirks...compared to a standard caster.
For one, because of the split focus, my DCs are always going to be laughable if I want to be an effective fighter. This pretty much limits me to no save and buff spells, which is pretty much what I want as a spellsword anyways. For another, I'm either a bard or relying on Still Spell to negate armor penalties, or praying Shield and (Improved) Mage Armor are enough.
Unfortunately, this means something else - I haven't the slightest clue how to build or play a full caster. What spells are worth taking at level-up, what combination of spells should I memorize, should I memorize multiple castings of a spell, when is it effective to cast a spell or save it for later...I don't know any of this. I do play enough to realize that direct damage is often wasted (damage 1 enemy with magic missile or effectively kill several with sleep?), and I know that nothing short of experience will fix everything, but I was wondering if anyone has any pointers to put me on the right track. If nothing else so I can play NPC casters competently.
Learning to Spell
Débuté par
DragonOfWhiteThunder
, juin 21 2011 09:41
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#2
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 10:23
kamal_
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I was thinking this topic was going to be about rampant spelling errors in the OC or something.
#3
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 10:46
DragonOfWhiteThunder
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Nope, just a bad attempt at a pun on my part.
#4
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 11:41
M. Rieder
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My Must-have spell lists:
Defensive:
Mirror image, stoneskin, mage armor, invisibility
Offensive:
Grease, Cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud, evard's black tentacles, fireball, fireburst
These are for playing as a wizard. Consider that your DCs will be low, but for area effects such as grease and stinking cloud, the enemy must save every round they are in them. Everyone rolls a 1 eventually.
When playing a wizard, consider the spells that disable your opponent, even moreso when playing a spellsword. Disable them, then cut them to little pieces, feed the pieces to your familiar, cackle with maniacal laughter, repeat. For damage spells, consider ones that do damage over time like combust or evard's black tentacles.
I gave you my short list. If you want more, I'll tell you my secondary choices.
If you want to try this out in a module, you could check out my sig. It's mainly for pure wizards, but you may find a fighter/wizard rewarding.
Defensive:
Mirror image, stoneskin, mage armor, invisibility
Offensive:
Grease, Cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud, evard's black tentacles, fireball, fireburst
These are for playing as a wizard. Consider that your DCs will be low, but for area effects such as grease and stinking cloud, the enemy must save every round they are in them. Everyone rolls a 1 eventually.
When playing a wizard, consider the spells that disable your opponent, even moreso when playing a spellsword. Disable them, then cut them to little pieces, feed the pieces to your familiar, cackle with maniacal laughter, repeat. For damage spells, consider ones that do damage over time like combust or evard's black tentacles.
I gave you my short list. If you want more, I'll tell you my secondary choices.
If you want to try this out in a module, you could check out my sig. It's mainly for pure wizards, but you may find a fighter/wizard rewarding.
Modifié par M. Rieder, 21 juin 2011 - 11:46 .
#5
Posté 22 juin 2011 - 12:21
painofdungeoneternal
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The biggest trick is being able to look at a target, immediately know which type of save works on them and then using such on them. Basically if the guy is a rogue, and has evasion and great reflex saves, he's going to save for no damage with most evocation spells. 3 types of saves, reflex on a hill giant in contrast is just funny as it wipes them out. Also learn which spells have no save or oddball saves, or do damage even on a save ( ice storm is really cool since it does 2 types of damage, and almost always does decent damage ). Fort saves works on rogues, will on fighter types, and reflex on quite a few caster types.
Like wise if it's a fire giant, fireballs don't really hurt that much, make sure you choose the right damage type. If it's trolls you need fire. Undead tend to be harder but undeath to death, and a few sun type spells can let you take those out.
Once you figure out what beats what, pay attention to the story for clues about what you will face. A area named troll wood likely means you stock up on fire, while going to the crypts might mean a few undeath to death are needed. Use metamagic completely ignoring it's bonus damage or the like, and use it to allow you to spam a single spell using multiple level slots. I often have a spell like flesh to stone in level 6th, 8th and 9th level slots, and versus a tough opponent can actually cast it 15 times before i get lucky. ( or use undeath to death, finger of death, which do the same thing but use different save types or target different things )
The next trick is learning that unlike a fighter type, there are far more weapons and ways to attack an opponent, limited only by your imagination. Even someone immune to magic can be felled by a well timed dominate or confusion on a dim witted companion, forcing them to fight their own supporters wasting magic and hit points while you laugh merrily. Remember that there is no useless spell, every spell, even low level ones, when cast at the right time on the right location can swing the battle into your favor. The key is learning the appropriate spell, and predicting that you will need it long before the adventure starts ( or at least when you get a chance to rest )
Keep a good supply of invis, ethereal and be ready to go poof if you are being targeted. Ideally you can just attack without regard to defense while your cohorts and summons keep your enemy busy. Battlefield control (web, slow, etc) is also needed, to slow the opponent, or just keep them focused on the wrong thing. Failing that other defenses like stoneskin, iron body, mirror image, shield, protection from evil, mind blank, shadow shield, shades, etc. should be protecting you if you get directly attacked.
Wall of dispels, blade barriers, tentacles, grease, fire, remain for quite a while and you can chase lots of opponents thru them once you get them up just by running in circles.
Also remember that if you cast something like flame weapon on your fighter, who hits 2-3 times a round and has this for 10 minutes at low level, is going to do far more damage than casting a single 10d6 fireball. Buffs that do damage which help your party should be routine. ( besides you should hope they protect you more because they value your magical help )
Like wise if it's a fire giant, fireballs don't really hurt that much, make sure you choose the right damage type. If it's trolls you need fire. Undead tend to be harder but undeath to death, and a few sun type spells can let you take those out.
Once you figure out what beats what, pay attention to the story for clues about what you will face. A area named troll wood likely means you stock up on fire, while going to the crypts might mean a few undeath to death are needed. Use metamagic completely ignoring it's bonus damage or the like, and use it to allow you to spam a single spell using multiple level slots. I often have a spell like flesh to stone in level 6th, 8th and 9th level slots, and versus a tough opponent can actually cast it 15 times before i get lucky. ( or use undeath to death, finger of death, which do the same thing but use different save types or target different things )
The next trick is learning that unlike a fighter type, there are far more weapons and ways to attack an opponent, limited only by your imagination. Even someone immune to magic can be felled by a well timed dominate or confusion on a dim witted companion, forcing them to fight their own supporters wasting magic and hit points while you laugh merrily. Remember that there is no useless spell, every spell, even low level ones, when cast at the right time on the right location can swing the battle into your favor. The key is learning the appropriate spell, and predicting that you will need it long before the adventure starts ( or at least when you get a chance to rest )
Keep a good supply of invis, ethereal and be ready to go poof if you are being targeted. Ideally you can just attack without regard to defense while your cohorts and summons keep your enemy busy. Battlefield control (web, slow, etc) is also needed, to slow the opponent, or just keep them focused on the wrong thing. Failing that other defenses like stoneskin, iron body, mirror image, shield, protection from evil, mind blank, shadow shield, shades, etc. should be protecting you if you get directly attacked.
Wall of dispels, blade barriers, tentacles, grease, fire, remain for quite a while and you can chase lots of opponents thru them once you get them up just by running in circles.
Also remember that if you cast something like flame weapon on your fighter, who hits 2-3 times a round and has this for 10 minutes at low level, is going to do far more damage than casting a single 10d6 fireball. Buffs that do damage which help your party should be routine. ( besides you should hope they protect you more because they value your magical help )
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 22 juin 2011 - 12:22 .
#6
Posté 23 juin 2011 - 03:32
DragonOfWhiteThunder
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Thanks, pain, that helps. So even when I'm playing a spellsword, I should consider picking up save-or-suck spells to cover different saves? (i.e. Reflex-based spells to handle Clerics and Warrior types, Will to handle Rogues, and Fort to handle enemy casters, since their saving throw will be low enough I have a good shot to beat it?)
And wall-type spells/other lingering AoE are good.
And wall-type spells/other lingering AoE are good.
#7
Posté 23 juin 2011 - 04:58
M. Rieder
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Rogues and clerics are weak on fort as well. Warriors are weak on will and the will spells are generally more crippling - Hold person, solipsism, sleep etc...
#8
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 05:25
DragonOfWhiteThunder
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Okay then, Fortitude to handle casters, Will to handle everything else. Though Fortitude is a high save for Clerics, isn't it? And I thought that Constitution was at worst a secondary stat for everybody.
#9
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 08:30
painofdungeoneternal
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I would say to a degree the way you are thinking about it works.
But i'd say quite a bit about playing a wizard ( or other caster ) is your intelligence stat. The spells you choose are like a key, and killing your targets a puzzle of learning their weakness. A bit of trial and error, ie knowing that fireball is reflex and that unknown enemy took no damage, you try confusion which does will, then try horrid wilting which does fortitude, looking for when they fail their saves. Once they do you know their weakness and strengths and have a way of grouping spells that work well and just will never work on them.
As you play you learn more and more weaknesses, until you start choosing spells very efficiently. Being a caster is a bit of a nerdy pursuit, which befits the nerdy spell caster studying his books, and those who learn how to play them take pride in efficiently always choosing the single spell or set of spells to enable them to win while keeping enough spells for the next encounter.
But i'd say quite a bit about playing a wizard ( or other caster ) is your intelligence stat. The spells you choose are like a key, and killing your targets a puzzle of learning their weakness. A bit of trial and error, ie knowing that fireball is reflex and that unknown enemy took no damage, you try confusion which does will, then try horrid wilting which does fortitude, looking for when they fail their saves. Once they do you know their weakness and strengths and have a way of grouping spells that work well and just will never work on them.
As you play you learn more and more weaknesses, until you start choosing spells very efficiently. Being a caster is a bit of a nerdy pursuit, which befits the nerdy spell caster studying his books, and those who learn how to play them take pride in efficiently always choosing the single spell or set of spells to enable them to win while keeping enough spells for the next encounter.
#10
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 03:12
NWN DM
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kamal_ wrote...
I was thinking this topic was going to be about rampant spelling errors in the OC or something.
Or the average post on an internet message board.
#11
Posté 27 juin 2011 - 11:27
The Fred
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If you are playing on Hardcore rules, everything changes and single-target spells become a lot more useful. Evard's is one of the best spells at that level against a lot of enemies, but it if hurts you too, you can easily tentacle yourself into a tight spot. On Normal and lower difficulty, just buffing up with Stoneskin and Ghostly Visage and whatnot, laying down Clouds and Tentacles and then bombing the hell out of everyone with Fireball is normally more than sufficient. If you're on Hardcore and also happen to bomb the hell out of you melee buddies, though, that's a different story.
Either way, a lot of those defensive spells are gold dust. I'd personally take Ghostly Visage over Mirror Image, but at higher levels you can easily take both! Things like Haste help your whole party and are pretty awesome, too.
For offensive spells, there are certain ones which have no save (such as Ice Storm, IIRC) or ignore spell resistance. These can be very useful, particularly if you're fighting rogue types, for example (who might Evade a simple Fireball). It's also good, even if you are packing mostly AoE damage spells, to mix things up a bit. If you're a Wizard, you can learn a lot of spells, so instead of taking three Fireballs, take one Fireball, one Scintillating Sphere, and one Vitriolic Sphere (or is that a higher-level spell? Maybe I mean Mestil's Acid Breath). They all do more or less the same thing, but deal different kinds of damage. Likewise, taking purely disabling spells like Hold Person is pointless if you run up against a few undead. Diversify.
Either way, a lot of those defensive spells are gold dust. I'd personally take Ghostly Visage over Mirror Image, but at higher levels you can easily take both! Things like Haste help your whole party and are pretty awesome, too.
For offensive spells, there are certain ones which have no save (such as Ice Storm, IIRC) or ignore spell resistance. These can be very useful, particularly if you're fighting rogue types, for example (who might Evade a simple Fireball). It's also good, even if you are packing mostly AoE damage spells, to mix things up a bit. If you're a Wizard, you can learn a lot of spells, so instead of taking three Fireballs, take one Fireball, one Scintillating Sphere, and one Vitriolic Sphere (or is that a higher-level spell? Maybe I mean Mestil's Acid Breath). They all do more or less the same thing, but deal different kinds of damage. Likewise, taking purely disabling spells like Hold Person is pointless if you run up against a few undead. Diversify.
