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[OdanUrr]

So, basically, the theory is: the Reapers have one plan and one plan only, that calls for the activation of the deep space relay via the Citadel so that the Reapers can start purging the galaxy. Sovereign tried through Saren and the Geth to reactivate it and failed, now Harbinger tried through the Collectors and their human Reaper and failed also. Consequently, they switched to plan B, where they simply travel into our galaxy under their own steam to begin the purge. Correct?

Modifié par OdanUrr, 22 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[Repearized Miranda]

Seems like it! As cliche as this is:

"If you want something done right, do it your damn self!" (Besides, it's a known fact, that the main bad guy/girl - in any entertainment medium - doesn't like his or her minions! As to why - it's because they generally fk things up!)

The geth nor Saren is able to stop Sheperd in ME1
The Collectors are unable to stop him, so Harby says like wise!

[HunterX6]

OdanUrr wrote...

Perhaps this has been discussed before? I am curious as to what Harbinger is referring to when it says "we will find another way," to do what exactly? I mean, let's face it, the Reapers excel at obliterating civilizations, definitely not because of a lack of practice. They probably know all the moves by now, the lengths to which any civilization near the brink of destruction will go to in order to survive.

Furthermore, they're probably the most technologically advanced race in the known universe at that point. That being said, why use the Collectors at all? To do what exactly? What's the point of building a single human reaper when you have an army of thousands (or more) and you have every confidence you will succeed? Gain time? What for, the Arrival? They couldn't have been referring to their standard protocol for obliterating all sentient life-forms since it's already been perfected. Plus, the galaxy doesn't want to believe the Reapers exist so, why not lay low, and instruct your minions to lay low as well, until you've finally made the journey across dark space?

http://social.biowar...89144/1#7692681

[DDG4005]

Lieutenant Flashlight wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...
..snip...
Plus, the galaxy doesn't want to believe the Reapers exist so, why not lay low, and instruct your minions to lay low as well, until you've finally made the journey across dark space?

I feel the Reapers are in a hurry for something.  They seem desperate to start this cycle ASAP.

I don't know what, but that's what it feels like.

The Reapers are scared sh!tless that humanity will destroy them after encountering Shepard.  That's why Harbinger kept talking smack: he was genuinely scared of Shepard since he and his crew took out Sovereign.

[wizardryforever]

I don't think the human Reaper was meant to activate the Citadel Relay.  It was far from complete, and to complete it the Collectors would have had to target Earth, something that they could not have done alone.  I believe it was being built so that when the Reapers finally did arrive, they would be able to hit Earth and take all the humans they needed to complete it and then use it against the other races.  Since the Reapers view humans as being better than the other races, they want to knock us out of the fight quickly and use our strength for themselves.  The fact that the Reapers pretty much make a beeline for Earth seems to indicate that this is true.

I think that the failure that Harbinger mentioned was the inability to create a human reaper larva and keep it safe.  He's irritated because now the Reapers have to start over from scratch.  All that hard work of collecting those hundreds of thousands of humans was for nothing.  They'll find another way to create the human Reaper they want. 

Since the ending cinematic seems to show the Reapers fairly close to the galaxy, and Arrival only happens a few months after the SM (canonically), it seems stupid to plan a Xanatos gambit on reaching the galaxy faster.  Besides, the Citadel relay likely only connects to a specific point in dark space, and it seems likely that the Reapers have been flying towards the galaxy for at least two years now (at FTL), so they are likely nowhere near the place the Citadel links to anymore.  Granted, I don't know that for certain, but it's more plausible than the alternative.

[Dustbeard]

wizardryforever wrote...
I think that the failure that Harbinger mentioned was the inability to create a human reaper larva and keep it safe.  He's irritated because now the Reapers have to start over from scratch.  All that hard work of collecting those hundreds of thousands of humans was for nothing.  They'll find another way to create the human Reaper they want. 

Agreed, this makes a lot of sense.  I hope this point actually puts the whole 'was the human Reaper supposed to conquer the galaxy by itself' debate to bed, too.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

You failed to bring back the sampo. (SAMPO!) The Reapers shall die of starvation. (SAMPO!)

[OdanUrr]

wizardryforever wrote...

I don't think the human Reaper was meant to activate the Citadel Relay.  It was far from complete, and to complete it the Collectors would have had to target Earth, something that they could not have done alone.  I believe it was being built so that when the Reapers finally did arrive, they would be able to hit Earth and take all the humans they needed to complete it and then use it against the other races.  Since the Reapers view humans as being better than the other races, they want to knock us out of the fight quickly and use our strength for themselves.  The fact that the Reapers pretty much make a beeline for Earth seems to indicate that this is true.

I think that the failure that Harbinger mentioned was the inability to create a human reaper larva and keep it safe.  He's irritated because now the Reapers have to start over from scratch.  All that hard work of collecting those hundreds of thousands of humans was for nothing.  They'll find another way to create the human Reaper they want. 

Since the ending cinematic seems to show the Reapers fairly close to the galaxy, and Arrival only happens a few months after the SM (canonically), it seems stupid to plan a Xanatos gambit on reaching the galaxy faster.  Besides, the Citadel relay likely only connects to a specific point in dark space, and it seems likely that the Reapers have been flying towards the galaxy for at least two years now (at FTL), so they are likely nowhere near the place the Citadel links to anymore.  Granted, I don't know that for certain, but it's more plausible than the alternative.

So they're already thinking long term? Planning for after they've "won"?

[Bad King]

OdanUrr wrote...

So, basically, the theory is: the
Reapers have one plan and one plan only, that calls for the activation
of the deep space relay via the Citadel so that the Reapers can start
purging the galaxy. Sovereign tried through Saren and the Geth to
reactivate it and failed, now Harbinger tried through the Collectors
and their human Reaper and failed also. Consequently, they switched to
plan B, where they simply travel into our galaxy under their own steam
to begin the purge. Correct?

I don't think they were going to use it as a sovereign replacement. No conduit = no successful attack on the Citadel. The Citadel would simply close while reinforcements arrived from across the galaxy (via the mass relay) and blast the human reaper apart.

I'm guessing that once the Collectors had harvested a few more colonies, they would have attacked earth with their new reaper(s) and harvested millions possibly billions more humans with their collector cruiser(s) ("The Collectors are targetting earth"). Using these humans they could have constructed many reapers and perhaps used them to guard the main relays so that when the reapers returned they'd have easy access to most of the galaxy.

Modifié par Bad King, 22 juin 2011 - 07:48 .

[Rahmiel]

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but I could swear that when you're in the collector base at the end of ME2, they say they have many more pods. Then shepard says "they're going for Earth". To me.. given what's going on in "the Arrival", I think the reapers would have reached Earth before the reaper was finished. I'm not sure if the collectors could have taken on Earth all by themselves. I didn't see too many collector vessels floating around, and I'm quite positive that the system's alliance could have handled 1, maybe 2 collector vessels.

To me, ME2 did not have to do with the return of the reapers, but more with colonists disappearing and then figuring out the connection between the collectors and the reapers. Again, I could be wrong. As to why the reapers wanted to construct a human reaper.. maybe they're just really good collectors? They want to immortalize a race that has a fighting spirit? Add one of the "non" pushovers to their ranks?

Also.. there should be a point, or a reveal as to why the reapers need to return now. I mean, otherwise, couldn't they wait 100 more years for shepard to die? It seems like a tiny longer wait when you consider they've been gone for 50,000 years. If no one's listened to shepard by now, with the events from the first game.. what are the odds they're going to listen to him 20 years from now, or on his death bed?

I can't wait for the third installment. Able to glimpse deeper into the reaper mindset. Unless of course.. it turns out to be poorly done or rather banal. Then I can do with out. But until then.. really good questions and some good insight in this thread.

[wizardryforever]

OdanUrr wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

I don't think the human Reaper was meant to activate the Citadel Relay.  It was far from complete, and to complete it the Collectors would have had to target Earth, something that they could not have done alone.  I believe it was being built so that when the Reapers finally did arrive, they would be able to hit Earth and take all the humans they needed to complete it and then use it against the other races.  Since the Reapers view humans as being better than the other races, they want to knock us out of the fight quickly and use our strength for themselves.  The fact that the Reapers pretty much make a beeline for Earth seems to indicate that this is true.

I think that the failure that Harbinger mentioned was the inability to create a human reaper larva and keep it safe.  He's irritated because now the Reapers have to start over from scratch.  All that hard work of collecting those hundreds of thousands of humans was for nothing.  They'll find another way to create the human Reaper they want. 

Since the ending cinematic seems to show the Reapers fairly close to the galaxy, and Arrival only happens a few months after the SM (canonically), it seems stupid to plan a Xanatos gambit on reaching the galaxy faster.  Besides, the Citadel relay likely only connects to a specific point in dark space, and it seems likely that the Reapers have been flying towards the galaxy for at least two years now (at FTL), so they are likely nowhere near the place the Citadel links to anymore.  Granted, I don't know that for certain, but it's more plausible than the alternative.

So they're already thinking long term? Planning for after they've "won"?

Well it does make sense.  The Reapers have been around for millions of years and haven't lost yet.  Long term thinking and confidence kinda go with the territory.

[EternalPink]

I took the line to mean that while we'd successfully stopped the collectors collecting in the grand scheme of things, the reapers are still confident they can screw us over.

When you loose a pawn in chess you don't immediately loose the game, the collecters are merely pawns so there loss, the loss of the base and the baby reaper while mildly annoying don't really matter.

So it's all just an attempt at psychological warfare

[MonkeyKaboom]

The reapers are synthetic but they are not AI. They are "aware" as an organic, although more along the line of the hippie collective consciousness bit I believe. Sovereign showed us they are cold, rational and calculated in their actions. But then Harbinger turned around shows us they are also impulsive and emotionally susceptible as well. Perhaps that is due to the overall disposition of the species each of those two were embodied of. Either way, its shows that they have the mental processes of organic beings. With that, while I like the idea that they are acting in presence of an even greater force than their own or the idea that they use us to form dark matter which they in term harvest for their uses; I think that after seeing how games take the least intricate route story wise, it's probably just their desire to reproduce as any other organism. And if you think about it, they screwed up last time. The Protheans weren't suitable and so its been approximately 100,000 years since the last time they "procreated," assuming they aren't active in other galaxies. Maybe they're in a hurry to add some new blood to the mix. Lame, but the simplest explanation.

[OdanUrr]

I still think that the Reapers should have kept a low profile after the events in ME1. Since the Collectors and the Shadow Broker, in some measure, are working for the Reapers in ME2, they must have known that the Council had dismissed the Reaper threat as a hoax. All you need do is humor them for a few years and they're yours. The only thing that would explain the Reapers' overeagerness is:

a) they have their own deadline to cull the galaxy before they are unable to do so for X reason;
they're afraid that there actually is some weapon out there capable of defeating them, and that Shepard will find it in time.

In the case of , they must have some evidence of who and when built said weapon. Since the Protheans managed to crash the Reapers' party once, it's likely it is they who built said weapon. Remember the Reapers weren't aware of the Ilos facility, that must have come as a most unwelcome surprise to them.

[LTiberious]

Hydralisk wrote...

Reikenji wrote...

blablabla
[/b]

blablablai

The problem with the White Blood Cell theory is that they gave us the technology to progress so quickly, so in a way doing that makes things harder for them...

"You progress on the path we made for you".

Its really a good idea to give people some super tech for them not to go and discover some other way to travel FTL. 

Cos when you know the way they evolved, you know how to kill them... Thats easier than killing absolutely randomly teched races, right?

///
Information is power, hide it well

Modifié par LTiberious, 22 juin 2011 - 10:23 .

[Parion]

As many have said, they'll find another way to collect enough humans for upload.

I feel that a few people have the wrong end of the stick regarding reaper mentality.
Imo the reapers have absolutely no doubt they will win. They don't even see it as a conflict per se, any more than a farmer who keeps chickens regards slaughtering them for market a conflict.

When it comes to conversion, well, why wait? They have their collecters there, might as well get started. At best they increase thier numbers and take one of thier "opponants" unaware, at worst they lose a single ship and station filled with inferior organic life. Big woop.
It took the best of every species with cutting edge tech to mildly inconvenience them.

Sure, they want to use the citadel to make the "fight" as easy as possible, but few farmers would enjoy having to slaughter several thousand chickens by hand.
That's what slaughterhouses are for.

Modifié par Parion, 23 juin 2011 - 08:57 .

[Warkupo]

onelifecrisis wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Space Terminator was going to punch the Citadel into submission and then embarass the entire galactic civilization into surrender by flashing its massive Space Genitalia at them.

This... perhaps without the flashing.

If it doesn't have a giant pelvic mounted laser, than the Reapers have completly missed the point of our species.

[JimiShep]

wizardryforever wrote...

I don't think the human Reaper was meant to activate the Citadel Relay.  It was far from complete, and to complete it the Collectors would have had to target Earth, something that they could not have done alone.  I believe it was being built so that when the Reapers finally did arrive, they would be able to hit Earth and take all the humans they needed to complete it and then use it against the other races.  Since the Reapers view humans as being better than the other races, they want to knock us out of the fight quickly and use our strength for themselves.  The fact that the Reapers pretty much make a beeline for Earth seems to indicate that this is true.

I think that the failure that Harbinger mentioned was the inability to create a human reaper larva and keep it safe.  He's irritated because now the Reapers have to start over from scratch.  All that hard work of collecting those hundreds of thousands of humans was for nothing.  They'll find another way to create the human Reaper they want. 

Since the ending cinematic seems to show the Reapers fairly close to the galaxy, and Arrival only happens a few months after the SM (canonically), it seems stupid to plan a Xanatos gambit on reaching the galaxy faster.  Besides, the Citadel relay likely only connects to a specific point in dark space, and it seems likely that the Reapers have been flying towards the galaxy for at least two years now (at FTL), so they are likely nowhere near the place the Citadel links to anymore.  Granted, I don't know that for certain, but it's more plausible than the alternative.

this is awesome... The are not pissed that they are slowed down or futher away. They know that they will ultimately get there. Harbinger was upset that he failed (at that time) to ascend Humans into the Pinnicle of Evolution. Shepard has become an annoyince because Harbinger sees him as just a set back to the known conclusion.

[Son of Illusive Man]

Harbinger, u mad bro?

[Dr. rotinaj]

I think the human reaper was a convenient mix of two reaper plans. Plan 1 being Sovereign activating the citadel relay, plan 2 being the creation of a new reaper. The collectors were created by the reapers to study the species of the galaxy, most probably to find a suitable reaper candidate. The reapers were going to make a new reaper (or reapers) after they harvested the galaxy, like they tried with the Protheans. Since Sovereign failed, Harbinger figured it could speed up the production of the new reaper using the race that killed Sovereign: humanity.This new human reaper created before the invasion would be used with all the infected geth to attack the citadel and open the relay.

What the collectors failed at doing was creating the reaper. To Harbinger, the collectors were the only shot at conveniently attacking the galaxy.

[Parion]

One thing I fancy noting because I'm bored-
Whilst I agree that the reapinator had sod all to do with any sort of plan, I feel "reproduction" misses the mark a tad.
Imo it's more like "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."

[Fishy]

Shepard still just a human(Even if he's the most bad ass human ever produced)
Of course at the end.. All it's will require it's a computer virus that will bypass  their defense and a nuclear weapons manufactured in China.

Modifié par Suprez30, 24 juin 2011 - 10:44 .