290 réponses à ce sujet

[MELTOR13]

locowolfie wrote...


First im not saying that i agree with OP views, just that it is lore breaking. Just as they broke the lore with the heatsink thing (Also a gameplay bettering lore breaking improvement)

seccondly it's not the only post he made and some were on lore breaking (just not thst one )

Heatsinks are given an explanation through the codex, it's technically not 'breaking' the lore. If it's given a legitimate explanation, can it really be breaking the lore? If you complain about heatsinks, don't you also have to complain about Tech Armor, Charge, Shockwave, Ammo powers, Combat Drone, Incinerate, Cryo Blast, etc. etc. 

Just because some things are different in ME2 doesn't mean they break the lore established in ME1 and in the novels. 

[LemurFromTheId]

CaolIla wrote...

And I love those "Yeah you should learn this and that" and "you just don't know how to do this and that" comments.... classy!

You know, it's surprisingly hard to avoid those kinds of comments when they happen to be so accurate. Most of those who feel adept is lacking just seem to have a very shallow understanding of the class.

Here are some perfect examples:

Warheadz wrote...

The opportunities to use the powers eficciently are few, as most of the time the enemies have low enough health that it's just quicker to shoot 'em.

Dem_B wrote...

Easier to just shoot the enemy than to apply the biotic skills.

Enemies that are down to health are not to be shot. They are fuel for warp bombs. Throw in a pull and a warp, thus reducing the protections of all the other enemies around him. Cast singularity, use SMG to soften the rest a little and bomb again. Mission accomplished.

Or, if there are no other enemies around, use a well-aimed throw. Instakill. No need to waste ammo, it's best used agains defenses anyway. (It just so happens that SMG does excellent damage against shields and barriers.)

Opportunities to use powers efficiently are only few if you don't actively create them. Creating opportunities is a major part of tactical thinking.

Modifié par Aedolon, 22 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[locowolfie]

MELTOR13 wrote...

locowolfie wrote...


First im not saying that i agree with OP views, just that it is lore breaking. Just as they broke the lore with the heatsink thing (Also a gameplay bettering lore breaking improvement)

seccondly it's not the only post he made and some were on lore breaking (just not thst one )

Heatsinks are given an explanation through the codex, it's technically not 'breaking' the lore. If it's given a legitimate explanation, can it really be breaking the lore? If you complain about heatsinks, don't you also have to complain about Tech Armor, Charge, Shockwave, Ammo powers, Combat Drone, Incinerate, Cryo Blast, etc. etc. 

Just because some things are different in ME2 doesn't mean they break the lore established in ME1 and in the novels. 

no i disagree on that because most of that is considered hardware upgrades (imo) but heatsinks i considder a downgrade. Point being that here is gun with near unlimmited ammo (ME1)  now you have heatsinks that make fiering without it impossible (ammo)  and giving a weak excuse dont make it cannon but thats not the issue.

(being dutch misspelling disclamer)


EDIT: what sums up what i mean is whould you start using your old mobile phone instead of your new one

Modifié par locowolfie, 22 juin 2011 - 03:02 .

[dreman9999]

Exolyps wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Exolyps wrote...

How I can see to fix this is that shields/armor reduces the effectiveness of the biotic power.

So push someone with an armor on and instead of a 700N effect you manage get a 400N effect.
Lift someone with a shield and the duration is reduced. (The shield absorbs the power over time and thus reduces the time it is effective)

That still allows an Adept - without weapons, squadmates and only one point in Pull or Throw - to take on 3 YMIRs and beat them to death without taking any damage.

MELTOR13 wrote...

Exolyps wrote...

How I can see to fix this is that shields/armor reduces the effectiveness of the biotic power.

So push someone with an armor on and instead of a 700N effect you manage get a 400N effect.
Lift
someone with a shield and the duration is reduced. (The shield absorbs
the power over time and thus reduces the time it is effective)

That
would either A) be massively overpowered going back to ME1 style or
require a huge overhaul of the combat mechanics of the game. 

Throwing
someone with armor, even if the effect is lessened, would keep them
stun-locked for eternity. Same thing with Lift, all of the powers. They
would need to significantly increase the cooldowns for powers, which
would kill the gameplay. 

You guys are right, without a overhaul in some way it'd not work. Having a 2 sec CD  (after mods and stuffs) push that'd push things, even armored around would indeed be a bit powerful.

But then again, as things are now, it was silly weak in my oppinion. Saw no point in having singulary avaible for example as I feelt other classes (in my case sentinel) had better alternatives. To be honest, I was cool with the ME1 CD, but then again, I rarely used my biotics there and just gunned everything down. Using it way more now.

Either way, making biotics a bit stronger (and as far as I can recall, they have already comfirmed that they will do that) is needed.

The very second you said you felt no need for Singularity is the second I knew you do know how to play the class.
If you have 4-5 Krogan charging you of any Krogan charging you in particular as an Adept, how do you stop it? Or a Vangurad.
Awnser singularity.
Singularity is the heart and soul of adept in ME2 and to not master it is to never using the full power of the adept.
The power can be used as a bomb, crowd control,a health reserve, a trap, a debuffer, and to pin enemies.
If your complaining the Singularity move to slow to hit any one, just use one of you squad mate powers to knock them out of cover. The power you can use to do that is concussion shot, pull, shockwave,warp, combat droid, throw, reave, smoke granades, insineray granades, slam, cyro blast, and insineray blast. All these powers used on any protected enemy knocks them out of cover and stuns then a bit, leaving plenty of time to use singularity on them.

Now this is the closest thing the adept class need to improve it. http://social.biowar...3/index/7627288

[MELTOR13]

locowolfie wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

locowolfie wrote...


First im not saying that i agree with OP views, just that it is lore breaking. Just as they broke the lore with the heatsink thing (Also a gameplay bettering lore breaking improvement)

seccondly it's not the only post he made and some were on lore breaking (just not thst one )

Heatsinks are given an explanation through the codex, it's technically not 'breaking' the lore. If it's given a legitimate explanation, can it really be breaking the lore? If you complain about heatsinks, don't you also have to complain about Tech Armor, Charge, Shockwave, Ammo powers, Combat Drone, Incinerate, Cryo Blast, etc. etc. 

Just because some things are different in ME2 doesn't mean they break the lore established in ME1 and in the novels. 

no i disagree on that because most of that is considered hardware upgrades (imo) but heatsinks i considder a downgrade. Point being that here is gun with near unlimmited ammo (ME1)  now you have heatsinks that make fiering without it impossible (ammo)  and giving a weak excuse dont make it cannon but thats not the issue.

(being dutch misspelling disclamer)

I see your point, I just don't have a problem with it because the explanation for the heatsinks is pretty viable IMO...but then again that's just me. In ME1, you're gun would get so hot it would overheat and shut down to the point that you couldn't fire it, but then it would cool off in a matter of seconds? How does that make sense? I would rather have a decent explanation and less tech(heat sinks) than some magical process that isn't explained ver y well (ME1 unlimited ammo/overheat system).

[mmu1]

This issue is a pretty good example of why "streamlining" is not the perfect solution to every problem...

It's a common thing in gaming - you start with a (more or less complicated) class-based system, but then, in order to make things more action-packed, easier to balance, simpler to script, faster to resolve (in PnP games) you 1. remove non-combat abilities and 2. simplify the powers/spells/abilities to the point where they become interchangeable, and the differences are largely cosmetic.

At which point, not surprisingly, all classes start to feel the same and some people get annoyed that there's not much difference between a biotic blast, a tech-based blast and a garden variety grenade.... or that the whirlwind attack your warrior has performs almost the same as a wizard's fireball, or that your rogue's DoT bleed attack is pretty much the same thing as a ranger's poisoned arrow, or whatever.

Making the gameplay as smooth and intuitive as possible can certainly be good thing, but there are times when a little extra complexity can actually add a lot to the game. A lot of players have been convinced that the way MMOs and shooters do things is The Way Things Have Always Been, And The Way They Shall Remain - but the reason those are the "standard" mechanics of the day is because they make the lives of lazy developers easier , not because they allow them to offer the players the best possible gaming experience...

[Bozorgmehr]

mmu1 wrote...

This issue is a pretty good example of why "streamlining" is not the perfect solution to every problem...

It's a common thing in gaming - you start with a (more or less complicated) class-based system, but then, in order to make things more action-packed, easier to balance, simpler to script, faster to resolve (in PnP games) you 1. remove non-combat abilities and 2. simplify the powers/spells/abilities to the point where they become interchangeable, and the differences are largely cosmetic.

At which point, not surprisingly, all classes start to feel the same and some people get annoyed that there's not much difference between a biotic blast, a tech-based blast and a garden variety grenade.

LMFAO

ME1 Vanguard + Singularty = ME1 Adept + Shotgun; compare that to the ME2 versions of the Adept and Vanguard.

ME2 has less powers, but they offer many more ways to use them and integrate them into your own playstyle.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 22 juin 2011 - 03:34 .

[dreman9999]

mmu1 wrote...

This issue is a pretty good example of why "streamlining" is not the perfect solution to every problem...

It's a common thing in gaming - you start with a (more or less complicated) class-based system, but then, in order to make things more action-packed, easier to balance, simpler to script, faster to resolve (in PnP games) you 1. remove non-combat abilities and 2. simplify the powers/spells/abilities to the point where they become interchangeable, and the differences are largely cosmetic.

At which point, not surprisingly, all classes start to feel the same and some people get annoyed that there's not much difference between a biotic blast, a tech-based blast and a garden variety grenade.... or that the whirlwind attack your warrior has performs almost the same as a wizard's fireball, or that your rogue's DoT bleed attack is pretty much the same thing as a ranger's poisoned arrow, or whatever.

Making the gameplay as smooth and intuitive as possible can certainly be good thing, but there are times when a little extra complexity can actually add a lot to the game. A lot of players have been convinced that the way MMOs and shooters do things is The Way Things Have Always Been, And The Way They Shall Remain - but the reason those are the "standard" mechanics of the day is because they make the lives of lazy developers easier , not because they allow them to offer the players the best possible gaming experience...

You logic is flawed because they made the game harder for the adept class and any biotic user. Streamline usally mean, easier. How is the adept class easier when it has the steepest  learning curve. Adept use to to walk for room to room destroy everything with one lift or one singularity and yet in ME2 you have to work for it. The fact that the action parts of the game doesn't streamline if it's better, especilly when you can't tank through the game like you did with the solder in ME1.
Your really say that a system like this....http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2uzpap0Ph3A
Is better then what we have now?

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[l DryIce l]

I think biotics should still work on enemies with armor and shields, but perhaps biotic duration/force could be cut against enemies with armor, power/force cut against enemies with barrier, and power/duration cut against enemies with shields. 

Just a thought. 

[dreman9999]

l DryIce l wrote...

I think biotics should still work on enemies with armor and shields, but perhaps biotic duration/force could be cut against enemies with armor, power/force cut against enemies with barrier, and power/duration cut against enemies with shields. 

Just a thought. 

But biotic already do damage ageints protection already....

[Dannyboy9876]

Some deleted Codex sound files explain why biotics dont work on shields or armor, iirc.

[l DryIce l]

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

I think biotics should still work on enemies with armor and shields, but perhaps biotic duration/force could be cut against enemies with armor, power/force cut against enemies with barrier, and power/duration cut against enemies with shields. 

Just a thought. 

But biotic already do damage ageints protection already....

That's not what I'm asking for. I don't care about damage unless it's a power like warp. The effects of pull, throw, shockwave, etc do not work on enemies with protection. I think they should, but with their effectiveness cut. For example, using throw on an enemy with armor could half the amount of force they experience. Or pull would only hold them up half the time an enemy without protection would be held. 

[dreman9999]

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

I think biotics should still work on enemies with armor and shields, but perhaps biotic duration/force could be cut against enemies with armor, power/force cut against enemies with barrier, and power/duration cut against enemies with shields. 

Just a thought. 

But biotic already do damage ageints protection already....

That's not what I'm asking for. I don't care about damage unless it's a power like warp. The effects of pull, throw, shockwave, etc do not work on enemies with protection. I think they should, but with their effectiveness cut. For example, using throw on an enemy with armor could half the amount of force they experience. Or pull would only hold them up half the time an enemy without protection would be held. 

Here's the problem with that.....BW does not want the powers to be over powered like ME2. Allowing any penatration of Biotic throw protect will break the game like ME1. Your asking for unlimited use for the power with the shortest cooldown time. So what it it does not last as long, you can quickly use it again. An area pull would destory any Krogan force, or any force at all even if cut.

[dreman9999]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

Some deleted Codex sound files explain why biotics dont work on shields or armor, iirc.

Found it.....

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

[l DryIce l]

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

I think biotics should still work on enemies with armor and shields, but perhaps biotic duration/force could be cut against enemies with armor, power/force cut against enemies with barrier, and power/duration cut against enemies with shields. 

Just a thought. 

But biotic already do damage ageints protection already....

That's not what I'm asking for. I don't care about damage unless it's a power like warp. The effects of pull, throw, shockwave, etc do not work on enemies with protection. I think they should, but with their effectiveness cut. For example, using throw on an enemy with armor could half the amount of force they experience. Or pull would only hold them up half the time an enemy without protection would be held. 

Here's the problem with that.....BW does not want the powers to be over powered like ME2. Allowing any penatration of Biotic throw protect will break the game like ME1. Your asking for unlimited use for the power with the shortest cooldown time. So what it it does not last as long, you can quickly use it again. An area pull would destory any Krogan force, or any force at all even if cut.

But you're making the incorrect assumption that all things must stay the same from ME2 (short cooldown times). Make the cooldown times about 5-6 seconds and the power is fine. Besides, there's usually going to be more than one enemy to worry about. You can spend all your time keeping one enemy in the air, but the others aren't just going to stand there and watch. 

[In Exile]

Okay, so biotics should only be able to use their powers 1-2 times per day?

[dreman9999]

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

I think biotics should still work on enemies with armor and shields, but perhaps biotic duration/force could be cut against enemies with armor, power/force cut against enemies with barrier, and power/duration cut against enemies with shields. 

Just a thought. 

But biotic already do damage ageints protection already....

That's not what I'm asking for. I don't care about damage unless it's a power like warp. The effects of pull, throw, shockwave, etc do not work on enemies with protection. I think they should, but with their effectiveness cut. For example, using throw on an enemy with armor could half the amount of force they experience. Or pull would only hold them up half the time an enemy without protection would be held. 

Here's the problem with that.....BW does not want the powers to be over powered like ME2. Allowing any penatration of Biotic throw protect will break the game like ME1. Your asking for unlimited use for the power with the shortest cooldown time. So what it it does not last as long, you can quickly use it again. An area pull would destory any Krogan force, or any force at all even if cut.

But you're making the incorrect assumption that all things must stay the same from ME2 (short cooldown times). Make the cooldown times about 5-6 seconds and the power is fine. Besides, there's usually going to be more than one enemy to worry about. You can spend all your time keeping one enemy in the air, but the others aren't just going to stand there and watch. 

And that add more to the problem, this would mean lower leveled adept would have less advantage than other classes. It would also, make other powers pointless. Why use reave when it does less damage than a pull -warp combo and  you have a long cooldown with it. Also, with longer cooldown you more dependant on guns than you ever were, with the Adept low health and harder hitting weopon, that does not mix.

[MELTOR13]

l DryIce l wrote...

But you're making the incorrect assumption that all things must stay the same from ME2 (short cooldown times). Make the cooldown times about 5-6 seconds and the power is fine. Besides, there's usually going to be more than one enemy to worry about. You can spend all your time keeping one enemy in the air, but the others aren't just going to stand there and watch. 

It would have to be alot longer than 5-6 seconds. You could keep every enemy in a room basically on the ground or in the air at all times, even if the cooldown was at 5-6 seconds. You forget that these are 3 man squads. 

[KainrycKarr]

If you think biotics are useless in ME2, you're doing it wrong. Playing as an Adept on insanity atm.

[l DryIce l]

MELTOR13 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

But you're making the incorrect assumption that all things must stay the same from ME2 (short cooldown times). Make the cooldown times about 5-6 seconds and the power is fine. Besides, there's usually going to be more than one enemy to worry about. You can spend all your time keeping one enemy in the air, but the others aren't just going to stand there and watch. 

It would have to be alot longer than 5-6 seconds. You could keep every enemy in a room basically on the ground or in the air at all times, even if the cooldown was at 5-6 seconds. You forget that these are 3 man squads. 

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity. I'm talking about reduced effectiveness here. A cooldown of 5 or 6 seconds is fine, especially if a protected enemy is only lifted for half the duration, or is thrown with only half the force. An armored Krogan would still be a force to be reckoned with, but an Adept could still have some effectiveness, without having to rely solely on others. 

[kingcake777]

yes biotics should definately be useable against shields and armor i found it incredibly frustrating on insane because i never had many oppurtunities to use biotics because everyone had shields and stuff. bioware needs to make biotics fun again

[MELTOR13]

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity. I'm talking about reduced effectiveness here. A cooldown of 5 or 6 seconds is fine, especially if a protected enemy is only lifted for half the duration, or is thrown with only half the force. An armored Krogan would still be a force to be reckoned with, but an Adept could still have some effectiveness, without having to rely solely on others. 

No, if your idea was implemented, the best squad would be an all-biotic squad. If Throw knocks down an armored Krogan, and then takes 5-6 seconds to cooldown, he would be stuck on the ground for pretty much eternity with an all-biotic squad. You would still be able to keep an entire room relatively locked down for the majority of the fight, just picking off single targets while others floated around or were trying to get up off the floor. 

Cooldowns would need to be much longer than 5-6 seconds if biotics went through protections. Hell, several of the biotic powers are already sitting at 5-6 seconds. 

[dreman9999]

l DryIce l wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

But you're making the incorrect assumption that all things must stay the same from ME2 (short cooldown times). Make the cooldown times about 5-6 seconds and the power is fine. Besides, there's usually going to be more than one enemy to worry about. You can spend all your time keeping one enemy in the air, but the others aren't just going to stand there and watch. 

It would have to be alot longer than 5-6 seconds. You could keep every enemy in a room basically on the ground or in the air at all times, even if the cooldown was at 5-6 seconds. You forget that these are 3 man squads. 

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity. I'm talking about reduced effectiveness here. A cooldown of 5 or 6 seconds is fine, especially if a protected enemy is only lifted for half the duration, or is thrown with only half the force. An armored Krogan would still be a force to be reckoned with, but an Adept could still have some effectiveness, without having to rely solely on others. 

Why would it be foolish?
You bring 3 people with area pull.
One pulls one group, everyone shots them to death.
On pull another group, ever one shot s them to death.
And last pull another group and every one shoot them to death.
I did this in ME1, it would be exsactly the same. Even with half the duration.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 juin 2011 - 04:50 .

[CroGamer002]

You mean make them even weaker?

OK.

Modifié par Mesina2, 22 juin 2011 - 04:37 .

[LemurFromTheId]

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity

"Still"? It's far from foolish right now to take an all-biotic squad on Insanity.