290 réponses à ce sujet

[LemurFromTheId]

kingcake777 wrote...

yes biotics should definately be useable against shields and armor i found it incredibly frustrating on insane because i never had many oppurtunities to use biotics because everyone had shields and stuff. bioware needs to make biotics fun again

I guess I have to re-write what I wrote two hours ago.

Aedolon wrote...

Opportunities to use powers efficiently are only few if you don't actively create them. Creating opportunities is a major part of tactical thinking.

Biotics are fun. Adept may not be the easiest class to learn, though, and using it effectively requires thinking.

[dreman9999]

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity

"Still"? It's far from foolish right now to take an all-biotic squad on Insanity.

That guy never seen what happen whan you bring an Adept, Jack and Samara with reave  together as a squad, has he?

[IrishSpectre257]

Sure, biotics were incredibly powerful in ME1, but I didn't think it was that much fun. Just casting a single singularity in the center of the room was enough to win most fights.

I never had a problem with biotics in ME2. I enjoy having to pause the game and combine my powers with my squad's to coordinate an attack. Most enemy defenses went down quickly, and they have more health than defenses.

[LemurFromTheId]

For those interested, here's a classic; Average Gatsby's no shooting, no pausing all-biotic insanity suicide run:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBr5nybj0Gs

Such a weak class.

EDIT: added the third link

Modifié par Aedolon, 22 juin 2011 - 05:01 .

[Hunter-Wolf]

Personally i think it should be the following

-Armor= Strong vs weapons / Very weak vs Biotics
-Shields= Average vs Weapons and Biotics
-Barriers= Weak vs Weapons / Strong vs Biotics

This will add some variety to the gameplay while still making things close to the lore ... and Biotics will be fun to use more than ME2 (i didn't have any major gripes with biotics in ME2 they were fun to use but it just felt slightly less fun than in ME1).

Oh .. and giving enemies way more HP than defenses (+ stronger regen for Krogan/Vorcha enemies) will help also make Biotics more fun to use.

[l DryIce l]

Aedolon wrote...

For those interested, here's a classic; Average Gatsby's no shooting, no pausing all-biotic insanity suicide run:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBr5nybj0Gs

Such a weak class.

EDIT: added the third link

Over 80% of those fights were: Singularity --> Warp --> Repeat. 
Pull and throw need to be more useful in ME3, and they won't be if they do nothing to protected enemies. 

[Teknor]

l DryIce l wrote...

Over 80% of those fights were: Singularity --> Warp --> Repeat. 
Pull and throw need to be more useful in ME3, and they won't be if they do nothing to protected enemies. 

They stagger normals. In insanity it creates room.

[l DryIce l]

dreman9999 wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity

"Still"? It's far from foolish right now to take an all-biotic squad on Insanity.

That guy never seen what happen whan you bring an Adept, Jack and Samara with reave  together as a squad, has he?

It depends on what enemies you're facing. Against a bunch of synthetics with heavy shielding, I'd rather not have 2 other biotics who can do similar things. It's much more effecient to have Tali, Legion, or someone with good tech powers against synthetics. 

I'd rather not resort to having to singularity trap, then warp bomb EVERY armored enemy I come into contact with. Pull, even a pull that was reduced in effectiveness due to armor, could be very useful against a charging Krogan. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 22 juin 2011 - 05:23 .

[commandoclone87]

Did anyone actually read the info on Shields (aka. Kinetic Barriers). They are repulsive Mass Effect fields surrounding a person, object, hallway, vehicle or starship. The only difference between the barriers on a person and a ship is the field strength. Now as they are repulsive ME fields, they should cancel out or reduce the effects of biotic attacks at the expense of power/strength. That provides a resonable reason why someone with barriers cannot be thrown around by biotic attacks. The Barrier skill is just a biotic's ability to enhance their existing kinetic barriers or create them if they do not have them in their armour.

Lastly, with regards to the use of biotic abilities being limited, remember that Shep is a trained Alliance marine, has cybernetic implants that may help with field generation and is a general all-around badass. Thus using a cooldown timer and not limiting powers to 2-3 uses is an allowable excuse to spam targets with lift and throw abilities.

That said, biotic powers should be able to toss around anyone without barriers, regardless of how much armour they have on. Thus abilities do seem to have been weakened and I do miss being able to walk into a room and just throw a group of enemies into walls and being able to lift and move objects to remove enemy cover.

[LemurFromTheId]

l DryIce l wrote...

Over 80% of those fights were: Singularity --> Warp --> Repeat.
Pull and throw need to be more useful in ME3, and they won't be if they do nothing to protected enemies.

It's true that for that playstyle, singularity and warp are the most useful powers. But he did use pull and throw in every fight, too. He used throw constantly against husks. The glowing blue balls just all look the same.

Of course, the situation would have been very different if he had used guns; pull and throw would have been much more viable. Those videos were made to prove a point, which is not the point we're discussing here.

And let's not forget that singularity is adept's signature power. Soldiers spam adrenaline rush, engineers spam combat droids, vanguards spam charge, sentinels spam tech armor, infiltrators spam tactical cloak - and yes, adepts spam singularity.

[dreman9999]

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity

"Still"? It's far from foolish right now to take an all-biotic squad on Insanity.

That guy never seen what happen whan you bring an Adept, Jack and Samara with reave  together as a squad, has he?

It depends on what enemies you're facing. Against a bunch of synthestics with heavy shielding, I'd rather not have 2 other biotics who can do similar things. It's much more effecient to have Tali, Legion, or someone with good tech powers against synthetics. 

I'd rather not resort to having to singularity trap, then warp bomb EVERY armored enemy I come into contact with. Pull, even a pull that was reduced in effectiveness due to armor, could be very useful against a charging Krogan. 

You kidding right. It does not matter what the protection is. A full biotic team will trash them. You sigularity with pin tthen in place. Jack shock wave will stop them from moving and know the out of cover. Samara is the fastest cooldownsquad mate so you can quickly use her  throw and pull to get people out of cover being that they are spamable, and her reave cuts defance.
If you use fast cooling down powers, your enemies never have  a chance to fight back no mater what the defence.

[l DryIce l]

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity

"Still"? It's far from foolish right now to take an all-biotic squad on Insanity.

That guy never seen what happen whan you bring an Adept, Jack and Samara with reave  together as a squad, has he?

It depends on what enemies you're facing. Against a bunch of synthestics with heavy shielding, I'd rather not have 2 other biotics who can do similar things. It's much more effecient to have Tali, Legion, or someone with good tech powers against synthetics. 

I'd rather not resort to having to singularity trap, then warp bomb EVERY armored enemy I come into contact with. Pull, even a pull that was reduced in effectiveness due to armor, could be very useful against a charging Krogan. 

You kidding right. It does not matter what the protection is. A full biotic team will trash them. You sigularity with pin tthen in place. Jack shock wave will stop them from moving and know the out of cover. Samara is the fastest cooldownsquad mate so you can quickly use her  throw and pull to get people out of cover being that they are spamable, and her reave cuts defance.
If you use fast cooling down powers, your enemies never have  a chance to fight back no mater what the defence.

But that's the thing. I don't need to use Samara's pull and throw, because I have pull and throw. If I have Tali, I have AI hacking, or if I take Garrus I'll have overload. How can you protection doesn't matter when Warp does nothing against shields compared to overload. 

[Bozorgmehr]

Aedolon wrote...

For those interested, here's a classic; Average Gatsby's no shooting, no pausing all-biotic insanity suicide run:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBr5nybj0Gs

Such a weak class.

Ah, the good old days

dreman9999 wrote...

That guy never seen what happen whan you bring an Adept, Jack and Samara with reave  together as a squad, has he?

Indeed, Jack, Samara and/or Morinth are my Adept Shep's favorite squadies

Here's how I play my Adept: www.youtube.com/watch

[Bozorgmehr]

l DryIce l wrote...

Over 80% of those fights were: Singularity --> Warp --> Repeat. 
Pull and throw need to be more useful in ME3, and they won't be if they do nothing to protected enemies.

I'll trade Warp for Pull & Throw any day; Adepts can go around without Warp just fine: Shockwave Adept - fly b-tch!

[Eurhetemec]

Aedolon wrote...

For those interested, here's a classic; Average Gatsby's no shooting, no pausing all-biotic insanity suicide run:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBr5nybj0Gs

Such a weak class.

EDIT: added the third link

That's pretty cool though it's worth noting that he is a totally awesome player with an absolutely optimized gear/squadmate setup and he is taking easily twice as long to get through that section as (looking at the first bit) and nearly dying way more often to boot, than me, a pretty mediocre player (on Insanity, as an Infiltrator), so I'm not at all convinced this shows Biotics are "balanced", just "not unplayable".

(Note that in some places he is faster! It's just overall, he isn't).

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 22 juin 2011 - 05:41 .

[LemurFromTheId]

dreman9999 wrote...

You kidding right. It does not matter what the protection is. A full biotic team will trash them. You sigularity with pin tthen in place. Jack shock wave will stop them from moving and know the out of cover. Samara is the fastest cooldownsquad mate so you can quickly use her throw and pull to get people out of cover being that they are spamable, and her reave cuts defance.
If you use fast cooling down powers, your enemies never have a chance to fight back no mater what the defence.

Yup.

People don't seem to realize that you only need to strip one mook of his protections. Just pick the weakest enemy, shoot him with your SMG and use, say, Samara's pull and Thane's warp to detonate him. Three seconds in the enemy squad is already half-finished and you haven't even used your own powers yet.

[l DryIce l]

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Over 80% of those fights were: Singularity --> Warp --> Repeat.
Pull and throw need to be more useful in ME3, and they won't be if they do nothing to protected enemies.

It's true that for that playstyle, singularity and warp are the most useful powers. But he did use pull and throw in every fight, too. He used throw constantly against husks. The glowing blue balls just all look the same.

Of course, the situation would have been very different if he had used guns; pull and throw would have been much more viable. Those videos were made to prove a point, which is not the point we're discussing here.

And let's not forget that singularity is adept's signature power. Soldiers spam adrenaline rush, engineers spam combat droids, vanguards spam charge, sentinels spam tech armor, infiltrators spam tactical cloak - and yes, adepts spam singularity.

True, but I'd rather not be limited to using one single tactic (i.e. singularity --> warp) when faced with armored enemies. Pull and throw just aren't as useful when facing any enemy with protection. Pull is more useful than Singularity when faced with a single enemy. Currently, if that single enemy has protection, guess which power you're not using? 

[locowolfie]

I almost never fire a shot while playing ME2. i just go around bioticly killing all the enemies my team mates dont shoot i like it sinds im a freaking biotic no matter the skills.

[LemurFromTheId]

Eurhetemec wrote...

That's pretty cool though it's worth noting that he is a totally awesome player with an absolutely optimized gear/squadmate setup and he is taking easily twice as long to get through that section as (looking at the first bit) and nearly dying way more often to boot, than me, a pretty mediocre player (on Insanity, as an Infiltrator), so I'm not at all convinced this shows Biotics are "balanced", just "not unplayable".

You did notice that he's handicapping himself and not shooting, right? The SMG is adept's number 1 method of stripping protections, and it excels at it.

He only really came close to dying against the husks. They are a cakewalk once you're allowed to use guns. Predator rapes their armor.

Oh, and now an all-biotic squad is an "absolutely optimized squadmate setup"? Hey, that's what we've been trying to say!

And while I agree that Average Gatsby is an awesome player (I have learned a lot from him), I'm pretty sure he'd be first to admit he made some pretty big mistakes in there, too.

[l DryIce l]

Aedolon wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

That's pretty cool though it's worth noting that he is a totally awesome player with an absolutely optimized gear/squadmate setup and he is taking easily twice as long to get through that section as (looking at the first bit) and nearly dying way more often to boot, than me, a pretty mediocre player (on Insanity, as an Infiltrator), so I'm not at all convinced this shows Biotics are "balanced", just "not unplayable".

You did notice that he's handicapping himself and not shooting, right? The SMG is adept's number 1 method of stripping protections, and it excels at it.

He only really came close to dying against the husks. They are a cakewalk once you're allowed to use guns. Predator rapes their armor.

Oh, and now an all-biotic squad is an "absolutely optimized squadmate setup"? Hey, that's what we've been trying to say!

And while I agree that Average Gatsby is an awesome player (I have learned a lot from him), I'm pretty sure he'd be first to admit he made some pretty big mistakes in there, too.

In the Shockwave Adept video (posted above), I doubt on all-biotic squad would have been more effective. Garrus was great at stripping shields and allowing the other 2 biotics to wreck havoc. It really depends on the enemies you're facing. 

[LemurFromTheId]

l DryIce l wrote...

True, but I'd rather not be limited to using one single tactic (i.e. singularity --> warp) when faced with armored enemies. Pull and throw just aren't as useful when facing any enemy with protection. Pull is more useful than Singularity when faced with a single enemy. Currently, if that single enemy has protection, guess which power you're not using?

So, what do you do against armored foes with other classes, then? How many options do you actually have?

Let's see.

Engineer: combat droid --> incinerate

Vanguard: incendiary ammo --> shotgun

Soldier: incendiary ammo --> adrenaline rush --> whatever gun

Infiltrator: incinerate --> snipe

Sentinel: warp --> tech armor rush

I'm not seeing a huge array of options based on the powers alone.

[LemurFromTheId]

l DryIce l wrote...

In the Shockwave Adept video (posted above), I doubt on all-biotic squad would have been more effective. Garrus was great at stripping shields and allowing the other 2 biotics to wreck havoc. It really depends on the enemies you're facing.

You know, I agree.

Biotics aren't that overpowered, really. Other classes and other squad members have their uses, too.

[l DryIce l]

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

True, but I'd rather not be limited to using one single tactic (i.e. singularity --> warp) when faced with armored enemies. Pull and throw just aren't as useful when facing any enemy with protection. Pull is more useful than Singularity when faced with a single enemy. Currently, if that single enemy has protection, guess which power you're not using?

So, what do you do against armored foes with other classes, then? How many options do you actually have?

Let's see.

Engineer: combat droid --> incinerate

Vanguard: incendiary ammo --> shotgun

Soldier: incendiary ammo --> adrenaline rush --> whatever gun

Infiltrator: incinerate --> snipe

Sentinel: warp --> tech armor rush

I'm not seeing a huge array of options based on the powers alone.

I'm not either. I don't consider this a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I still think the combat in ME2 is great, and vastly superior to ME1, but the amount of options each class has when dealing with specific enemies is fairly limited. 

[dreman9999]

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

You can already do this on Veteran and below. If my idea was implemented, it would still be foolish to take on all-biotic squad on hardcore/insanity

"Still"? It's far from foolish right now to take an all-biotic squad on Insanity.

That guy never seen what happen whan you bring an Adept, Jack and Samara with reave  together as a squad, has he?

It depends on what enemies you're facing. Against a bunch of synthestics with heavy shielding, I'd rather not have 2 other biotics who can do similar things. It's much more effecient to have Tali, Legion, or someone with good tech powers against synthetics. 

I'd rather not resort to having to singularity trap, then warp bomb EVERY armored enemy I come into contact with. Pull, even a pull that was reduced in effectiveness due to armor, could be very useful against a charging Krogan. 

You kidding right. It does not matter what the protection is. A full biotic team will trash them. You sigularity with pin tthen in place. Jack shock wave will stop them from moving and know the out of cover. Samara is the fastest cooldownsquad mate so you can quickly use her  throw and pull to get people out of cover being that they are spamable, and her reave cuts defance.
If you use fast cooling down powers, your enemies never have  a chance to fight back no mater what the defence.

But that's the thing. I don't need to use Samara's pull and throw, because I have pull and throw. If I have Tali, I have AI hacking, or if I take Garrus I'll have overload. How can you protection doesn't matter when Warp does nothing against shields compared to overload. 

I did say Samara is the fastest Squad mate. I know Adepts have have pull and throw, It's even faster on a Shep Adept and strong.  A Sheps throw with no bonuses takes 2 second to cooldown, with the adepts passives and the cooldown bonus Amp you get on illium, that cuts the cooldown to 1.07 seconds. That mean you canuse one throw per second. And with 3 heavy throws you can take of the weaks enemies protection, that a protection gone in 3 second. Now you can alway use overload but overloed does not stop you enemy from moving. You can overload someone and try to lift them but miss because they go into cover. Biotics stun enemies, a throw keeps a protected enemy in place. You can use Samara throw or pull to knock some one out of cover to be hit by a singulrity, and use your heavy throw to take of the shields. While you can use overload on an enemy, you have to wait for them to come out of cover to try to hit them with singularity, any one can tell you how that works out. And sure you can use pull to get them but what the tactic with enemies with more powerful protection?
That awnser would be Samars throw, or Jack's pull and your singularity. Overload would only half an advance eneimes shields, pull would just get them out of cover, and with out pull or throw or anystunning power in the mix....singularity can miss.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[LemurFromTheId]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I'll trade Warp for Pull & Throw any day; Adepts can go around without Warp just fine: Shockwave Adept - fly b-tch! {smilie}

I love how you play adept. That's not my style (I'm quite close to Average Gatsby, while not as good), but I can't deny it's pretty d**n effective.

But that's exactly the reason why I said "for that playstyle, singularity and warp are the most useful powers".