290 réponses à ce sujet

[LemurFromTheId]

Aurellia wrote...

I've beaten ME2 multiple times on insanity. I don't like the changes to Adept from ME1. it lets me do less of what I enjoy as an Adept, ie toss stuff around and makes me do more shooting and shield/armor stripping to get to the fun stuff. It is not especially hard and I am no ME2 god like Bozorgmehr.

In ME2, you're throwing and pulling and singularizing constantly, not just once or twice every fight. You can juggle mooks around and play with them. To me, that's much more fun.

Aurellia wrote...

What I hated was the loss of mobility. Now when I played Vanguard I had a lot more fun because I could run and gun. I'm happy to see that we'll be getting more of that in ME3.

This I can agree with, to a degree. ME2 is just slightly too cover-centered, although that doesn't mean you can't run and gun, because you can.

Aurellia wrote...

Honestly I find the shield/armor stripping repetitive and boring, and no I'm not looking to be a biotic god. I love a good challenge but I also want variety. ME2 insanity gave me a boring and tedious challenge. Basically almost every encounter can be beaten using the same set of combos. For lame players doing Adept this can amount to setting behind a wall and slinging warp/overload until stripped and then use biotics for a cool finishing blow.

Thankfully husks mixes things up a bit:)

...And now you lost me.

Are you saying ME1 had more variety? That ME2 is boring and tedious, as in "compared to ME1"? Really?

In ME1 you just threw in lift and warp and the battle was practically over. Every single time.

[stonbw1]

dreman9999 wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...

Here's a question: would anyone prefer that adepts rarely use firearms? To me, it seems almost logical that their main (if not, ONLY) combat tool are the adept powers, with a firearm being a last resort. Now, that will never happen in ME3, but I agree that in ME2, I almost had to force myself to use the adept powers, since there was little point (exept for pushing people over ledges!!).

My question is why no one bothered to remember thatyou did more shooting as an adept in ME1 than ME2?

You may be right, but it didn't seem that way.  In ME1, you walked in a room, devastated your enemies with an adept power and finished them off with your pistol.  In ME2, you walk in to a room guns blazing to strip away shields/biotics and then (try to) finish them off with seemingly weak powers that were about as equal to two or three more trigger pulls with your gun. 

Modifié par stonbw1, 22 juin 2011 - 07:16 .

[Eurhetemec]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

BTW; if you're interested in more Adept vids, check my sig - you'll find dozens (including Gatsby's).

Power damage is almost irrelevant, when defense-stripping powers are strong enough to one-shot defenses of normal goons, you're good. Warp will insta-strip amor/barrier and also insta-(Warpbomb)-kill enemies - no matter how much extra power damage; you (almost) always need the same number of Warp(bombs) to strip/kill elites and bosses.

I find that hard to believe, to be honest, given that in this video, Gatsby's warp appears to be reducing enemies to 80% health (from full biotic barriers). Seems like if he was doing 20% less damage, he'd be failing to kill their barriers in a single Warp, and the Blood Dragon armour gives 15% Power Damage, so that means, surely, that if he had anything less than maxed Biotic Damage, and was wearing armour pieces that didn't give at least 5% Power Damage, he'd be failing to strip the Barriers.

Stasis, the Mattock and GPS were not available at the time of that video; an Adept with Stasis and the Mattock/GPS will annihilate Collectors; a well-trained Adept will eat Infiltrators for breakfast on the Suicide Mission.

Yeah, I'm commenting on the actual video, not a theoretical video. Feel free to point me to one that's more up-to-date if it's out there.

That I do believe - re: Stasis/Mattock, which is why one of the changes I think is a must for ME3 is to give all Adepts Stasis as one of their "baseline" abilities, either in place of the useless-on-Insanity Shockwave or as the "extra" power every class seems to be getting (presumably on top of the bonus power) in ME3. Combine that with all classes being able to use all weapons, and I think we'll see complaints about biotics go away, more or less.

[LemurFromTheId]

stonbw1 wrote...

Here's a question: would anyone prefer that adepts rarely use firearms? To me, it seems almost logical that their main (if not, ONLY) combat tool are the adept powers, with a firearm being a last resort. Now, that will never happen in ME3, but I agree that in ME2, I almost had to force myself to use the adept powers, since there was little point (exept for pushing people over ledges!!).

As long as you have weapons, you might as well use them. I use them mainly to strip defenses while my powers are on cooldown. There are other ways to play adept, some very aggressive and weapon-centered, but they all still utilize they biotic powers to maximal efficiency.

If you saw no point in using your biotic powers, I can only say you're really not playing adept the way it should be played. Just my opinion, of course.

[dreman9999]

stonbw1 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...

Here's a question: would anyone prefer that adepts rarely use firearms? To me, it seems almost logical that their main (if not, ONLY) combat tool are the adept powers, with a firearm being a last resort. Now, that will never happen in ME3, but I agree that in ME2, I almost had to force myself to use the adept powers, since there was little point (exept for pushing people over ledges!!).

My question is why no one bothered to remember thatyou did more shooting as an adept in ME1 than ME2?

You may be right, but it didn't seem that way.  In ME1, you walked in a room, devastated your enemies with an adept power and finished them off with your pistol.  In ME2, you walk in to a room guns blazing to strip away shields/biotics and then (try to) finish them off with seemingly weak powers that were about as equal to two or three more trigger pulls with your gun. 

It is that way in ME1. Outside of warp, no biotic power killed anyone unless a cliff was near by. Lift put people in the air, throw just knocked them on the ground, and singularity did what lift did. You were basicly holding people in place while you shot at them. ME2 minimized this drasitcly by making Biotics stun targets first. Thay are still held in place but for on a few seconds due to stun.Once the protection is off, thenthe magic happens.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 juin 2011 - 07:31 .

[DCarter]

I think biotics need a lot of work in general. what should be a core game play mechanic is little more than a gimmick. It seems to me as bioware are pretty much ignoring them for ME3, apart from the increased skill trees, it seems to me as if they're heavily focusing on turning ME3 into a generic cover shooter with the increased melee kills and traditional grenades.

[LemurFromTheId]

stonbw1 wrote...

You may be right, but it didn't seem that way. In ME1, you walked in a room, devastated your enemies with an adept power and finished them off with your pistol. In ME2, you walk in to a room guns blazing to strip away shields/biotics and then (try to) finish them off with seemingly weak powers that were about as equal to two or three more trigger pulls with your gun.

In ME2, I prefer to walk in the room, strip one mook of defenses, rape them all with my biotics and use the SMG to finish the leftovers - if there are any.

[Praetor Knight]

stonbw1 wrote...

In ME2, you walk in to a room guns blazing to strip away shields/biotics and then (try to) finish them off with seemingly weak powers that were about as equal to two or three more trigger pulls with your gun. 

I would disagree.

I'd recommend this thread and video for some testing that has been done to show that is not the case with enemy health.

http://social.biowar...index/5630902/1

[LemurFromTheId]

DCarter wrote...

I think biotics need a lot of work in general. what should be a core game play mechanic is little more than a gimmick.

A bold claim I couldn't disagree more with. Care to clarify?

DCarter wrote...

It seems to me as bioware are pretty much ignoring them for ME3, apart from the increased skill trees, it seems to me as if they're heavily focusing on turning ME3 into a generic cover shooter with the increased melee kills and traditional grenades.

I've seen absolutely no evidence that Bioware is ignoring biotics. The fact that they are improving the shooter mechanics has nothing to do with this.

[RoboticWater]

It would be neat to see a "biotic rage mode" where you would put your gun away and get a cool-down boost and defense upgrade, this would not make you completely destroy everything in your path but turn biotics into your gun.

[Eurhetemec]

Aedolon wrote...

As long as you have weapons, you might as well use them. I use them mainly to strip defenses while my powers are on cooldown. There are other ways to play adept, some very aggressive and weapon-centered, but they all still utilize they biotic powers to maximal efficiency.

If you saw no point in using your biotic powers, I can only say you're really not playing adept the way it should be played. Just my opinion, of course.

I think the issue is that ME2 has a bit of an... issue... where playing it without using any powers at all, I mean AT ALL, just concentrating on shooting and manuevering, can be more effective than using your powers less-than-optimally. This true for every class, not just biotics. I don't know if it's intentional or an accident of trying to make the Soldier viable with only one active power, but it is what it is, and I imagine ME3 will have the same... issue.

So telling people "they're not playing adept the way it's meant to be played" is correct but helps to show that biotic powers aren't the obvious "WOO YEAH WIN!" thing they were in ME1 (above Veteran, anyway). People try them, they fail, because of defenses (or warp on shields), then they're unenthused. It's easy to see how they'd begin to ignore them.

I think a BIG problem with ME2's implementation of biotics is that the really powerful thing - the biotic explosion caused Warp hitting another power is not "straightforward". I bet you a huge number of people played through ME2, many with biotics, some even with Adepts, without even consciously understanding how that worked, because ME2 doesn't do a great job of explaining it unless you RTFM - and even then the mechanics aren't perfectly clear. Indeed, to even do it reliably, you need to get your squadmates in on the acting, hotkey their powers and so on - and all this is more advanced than the average ME2 player is going to get.

This is one thing that could be solved by better education of players, at least - i.e. something that should be *spotlighted* in the tutorial, not mentioned in a power description or a loading screen hint.

[RoboticWater]

Eurhetemec wrote...

*snip

I think the issue is that ME2 has a bit of an... issue... where playing it without using any powers at all, I mean AT ALL, just concentrating on shooting and manuevering, can be more effective than using your powers less-than-optimally. This true for every class, not just biotics. I don't know if it's intentional or an accident of trying to make the Soldier viable with only one active power, but it is what it is, and I imagine ME3 will have the same... issue.

So telling people "they're not playing adept the way it's meant to be played" is correct but helps to show that biotic powers aren't the obvious "WOO YEAH WIN!" thing they were in ME1 (above Veteran, anyway). People try them, they fail, because of defenses (or warp on shields), then they're unenthused. It's easy to see how they'd begin to ignore them.

I think a BIG problem with ME2's implementation of biotics is that the really powerful thing - the biotic explosion caused Warp hitting another power is not "straightforward". I bet you a huge number of people played through ME2, many with biotics, some even with Adepts, without even consciously understanding how that worked, because ME2 doesn't do a great job of explaining it unless you RTFM - and even then the mechanics aren't perfectly clear. Indeed, to even do it reliably, you need to get your squadmates in on the acting, hotkey their powers and so on - and all this is more advanced than the average ME2 player is going to get.

This is one thing that could be solved by better education of players, at least - i.e. something that should be *spotlighted* in the tutorial, not mentioned in a power description or a loading screen hint.

I totally agree, there should be a slightly if not completely different turorial that tells you some power combos and decent power usage. 

Modifié par BlahDog, 22 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[Praetor Knight]

Eurhetemec wrote...

This is one thing that could be solved by better education of players, at least - i.e. something that should be *spotlighted* in the tutorial, not mentioned in a power description or a loading screen hint.

This would be cool, wasn't there like three videos in ME2?

Add another nine, and you have 12 videos able to explain mechanics, and then you have your tutorial in ME3 to experiment before you get to the game.

Maybe have the tutorial as a separate option apart from the game? (I mean accessible from the main menu, not like Eden Prime or when Shep wakes up in ME2).

[sevach]

The adept was game breaking powerfull in ME1, the area of effect was ridiculously wide and the enemies were helpless against biotics.
Enemy biotics simply didn't have the same capabilities, i doubt people would care so much about lore after they get pulled into the air and shot to death while they sit helpless.
I don't see that many soldiers complaining that their immunity (more like immortality) was taken away.

Plus, the way some biotic powers work is lore breaking in itself, pull/lift for example, you pull the guy into the air and immediatly afterward you can start moving around doing other stuff, lore would dictate that you have to concentrate on the target to keep him floating around (if anything Miranda's slam should replace it to keep the lore in place).

Last but not least, in ME1 there was a biotc protection stat in the armors right, it only makes sense that enemys using the best armors (every enemy is actually using an armor, only the ones who have an noteworthy armor have an armor stat) can resist the full effect of biotics, again they are affected, bumped by throw, stopped, and damaged by a singularity... they just resist it better.

So yeah, keep the ME2 balance.

[RoboticWater]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

This is one thing that could be solved by better education of players, at least - i.e. something that should be *spotlighted* in the tutorial, not mentioned in a power description or a loading screen hint.

This would be cool, wasn't there like three videos in ME2?

Add another nine, and you have 12 videos able to explain mechanics, and then you have your tutorial in ME3 to experiment before you get to the game.

Maybe have the tutorial as a separate option apart from the game? (I mean accessible from the main menu, not like Eden Prime or when Shep wakes up in ME2).

I think the game should recognize that you are a biotic and change the tutorial for you (I am guessing that the tutorial is that demo level with anderson) and add a biotic with you that tells you some combos and other biotic stuff.

Modifié par BlahDog, 22 juin 2011 - 08:00 .

[AntiChri5]

Biotics in ME1 were a joke that trivialised the entire game on even the highest difficulties.

In ME2, Biotics are a powerful but limited weapon. Not simply the solution to every problem.

If you want to walk into a room and feel like a biotic god by tearing people apart with nothig but a power or two then play on casual. Or normal. Or veteran.

[Someone With Mass]

I think it works just fine in ME2. So what if they have protection? Just take it away.

[The Twilight God]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

 Seriously, I hate how armor or shields blocks out Biotics when honestly they shouldn't unless its a Biotic barrier. What do you guys think? Should they make Biotics actually function like they should?

I've laways been of the opinion that adept is about knocking people around. If you didn;t like it in ME1 and didn't like playing it don't play it. Now, in ME2, it's just a weak sentinel. It was a fun class. Overpowered? Yes, but it's a single player game. No one should care. If you don't like it play something else or gimp yourself. No one is forcing anyone to play a class to it's full potential. The point of a bitoic is to fling stuff around. It gave you a different experience versus all gunplay.

But if Bioware insist on balance...

I agree that armor should not prevent biotics. Armor should add weight to an opponent.

I don't think an armored enemy should take damage from a throw, but it should at least stagger them and knock them out of cover.

Pull may not yank them trhough the air put it should put them on their tippy toes and make them walk in slow motion as if they were in zero-g.

Singularity would be the same. It would root them in place so that they can't move. They can still fire at you, but the force of the singularity keeps them in place.


For shields, only minor difference.

Throw should slightly damage shields, which I believe is the case already.

Pull should not make the shield take more damage damage. So after a Pull the shields will still be at 100%, but when you fire on them they take 10% more damage. It would be nice to be able to use it in conjunction with overload to give it extra kick. Warp always seemed more effective than overload.

Singularity should slowly drain a shields (5% every 2 seconds) and prevent shield recharge.

Ummm...almost everything you just listed is already present in the game?

You sure about that?

[DCarter]

Aedolon wrote...

DCarter wrote...

I think biotics need a lot of work in general. what should be a core game play mechanic is little more than a gimmick.

A bold claim I couldn't disagree more with. Care to clarify?

DCarter wrote...

It seems to me as bioware are pretty much ignoring them for ME3, apart from the increased skill trees, it seems to me as if they're heavily focusing on turning ME3 into a generic cover shooter with the increased melee kills and traditional grenades.

I've seen absolutely no evidence that Bioware is ignoring biotics. The fact that they are improving the shooter mechanics has nothing to do with this.

Well i'm probably exagerating. From my own personal experience i didn't use biotics much in my ME1 playthroughs and the only bitoic power i consistently used in ME2 was charge when playing as a vanguard. The bitoics powers are useful but you have to go out your way to make the most of them. It's often much more efficient just to shoot stuff. 

I just feel it's such a cool concept that it desearves more attention and a more core role in gameplay mechanics. For example it would be nice if some enemies could only be killed by chaining biotic powers together. I guess that raises the issue of forcing you to choose certain character combos. Again i just feel they're underutilised and with a few subtle changes could really be awesome and seperate mass effect gameplay from other thirdperson shooters in a great way. So far i've heard very little from bioware on biotics and i infered this is because they concentrating on other apsects of the game which would be a shame. Hopefully i'm wrong. 

[Aurellia]

Aedolon wrote...


...And now you lost me.

Are you saying ME1 had more variety? That ME2 is boring and tedious, as in "compared to ME1"? Really?

In ME1 you just threw in lift and warp and the battle was practically over. Every single time.

I was more thinking in compared with other games, although ME1 provided more situational variety.  I miss the days of fights that required you to figure out different patterns of weaknesses for different enemies.  Some games like Infamous do this a bit.

One of my favorite things in ME1 was doing assaults on foot of various bases on the planets.  Yeah the models were the same but the combinations of enemies and terrain made it interesting, especially if you liked getting out the Mako to fight.

[LemurFromTheId]

[quote]BlahDog wrote...

Maybe have the tutorial as a separate option apart from the game? (I mean accessible from the main menu, not like Eden Prime or when Shep wakes up in ME2).
[/quote]

I think the game should recognize that you are a biotic and change the tutorial for you (I am guessing that the tutorial is that demo level with anderson) and add a biotic with you that tells you some combos and other biotic stuff.

[/quote]

Whatever the implementation, a better tutorial could be a great thing.

It should be noted that biotic combos could be tricky to perform in the very beginning of the game. Rank 1 singularity has 4.5 s cooldown and 5 s float. Throw and pull both locked behind three points. Of course, you got Miranda and Jacob for the second mission. Perhaps the game should have mentioned, that they have certain synergy.

As I've understood it, in ME3 we'll start with a pretty powerful Shepard. Right?

[Eurhetemec]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Eurhetemec wrote...

This is one thing that could be solved by better education of players, at least - i.e. something that should be *spotlighted* in the tutorial, not mentioned in a power description or a loading screen hint.

This would be cool, wasn't there like three videos in ME2?

Add another nine, and you have 12 videos able to explain mechanics, and then you have your tutorial in ME3 to experiment before you get to the game.

Maybe have the tutorial as a separate option apart from the game? (I mean accessible from the main menu, not like Eden Prime or when Shep wakes up in ME2).

That's the totally wrong way to do it, imho, Praetor.

Think about the problem.

The problem is that players don't know a thing (or don't remember a thing), because it's something they can only find out by reading it in the manual or through tricky experimentation or the like.

Placing it in a tutorial video, especially when there are bunches of tutorial videos will NOT help. People will not WTFV just like they didn't RTFM. I mean for god's sake, in ME2 they had to make watching the bloody videos an achievement to get people to even watch three short ones! What will they have to do to make them watch twelve? Come around to your house and put a Mattock AR to your head? I think that's what you'd need to do to most gamers! If the tutorial is separate and skippable, that's even worse, because people will skip it, learn to play in the actual game, think they know how to play, but be missing a vital fact. If anyone is thinking of typing "Well their dumb and dont deserve 2 kno how then" or the like, please remember I'm talking about trying to help people and improve the game experience, not how to be smug on the internet. I'm sure we're all masters of that already.

If they want to educate people, they need to make it impossible to avoid. I.e. put it in as a thing that happens in the "tutorial mission". With ME2's tutorial mission they could have changed it so that you had to fight a few enemies after Timmy McTraitor got shot in the neck, and in a cutscene, Jacob could have Pulled an enemy and Miranda Warp'd it, with them explaining what they were doing, and a huge impressive explosion all up in your cutscene.

Players would remember that. They'd try to replicate it.

Also, I imagine in ME3 it'll be easier to do at the start of them game, if you don't start at level 1, at least. In ME3, it's a while before powers last long enough that people who aren't pretty awesome players can reliably get combos like this off.

[Praetor Knight]

OK, well, we can go old school and lock out the main game if the player does not go through a base tutorial

and 12 videos at wut ~3 min a pop is too much? I give gamers more credit then


Edit: removing quote and adding point.

I think I should explain further what I pictured with the videos. I figured that each would be on a different feature relevant to the game.

And the setup would be watch one feature and then test it out. Watch another video then test that out.

WIth how cover will work in ME3 and introducing a mech Shepard can control, there's two potential videos and tutorial sequences there.

And I'm not locked into the number 12, the fewest necessary will work best anyway.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 22 juin 2011 - 08:28 .

[LemurFromTheId]

Aurellia wrote...

One of my favorite things in ME1 was doing assaults on foot of various bases on the planets. Yeah the models were the same but the combinations of enemies and terrain made it interesting, especially if you liked getting out the Mako to fight.

There have been hints that enemy snipers are back. That'll bring back some fuzzy memories.

[Aurellia]

Aedolon wrote...

Aurellia wrote...

One of my favorite things in ME1 was doing assaults on foot of various bases on the planets. Yeah the models were the same but the combinations of enemies and terrain made it interesting, especially if you liked getting out the Mako to fight.

There have been hints that enemy snipers are back. That'll bring back some fuzzy memories.

What I'm missing from ME1 has become very clear recently since I've been playing through Infamous 1 and 2.  Those games give me a huge city that I have to go assault various groups of enemies on the ground and on rooftop.  They mix things up by adding more and more crazy enemies so by the end of the game I've become more powerful than the ME1 biotic god and yet they keep it challenging enough that I can still die if I'm not on my toes and run into an ambush.

This is the kind of stuff I'd love for ME3.  Huge open worldish areas that have various enemy bases/encampments/etc and I have to assault them in various ways.  Halo did this, Infamous does this.  ME1 kind of did this.  It was mostly gone in ME2.  Overlord was half assed attempt at this, IMHO.