71 réponses à ce sujet

[Kardelo]

In my 2nd playthrough, I knew that I needed to betray Alistair and recruit Loghain to get the "Recruiter" and "Warden-Redeemer" achievement. When Riordan suggested to put Loghain through the Joining and Alistair shouted in anger about everything bad that Loghain has done, I couldn't help but side with Alistair. Steve Valentine's brilliant emotional voice acting put so much guilt on me that I totally didn't care about the achievement anymore and it made me not betray Alistair. It wasn't only Steve Valentine's voice acting, but also the character Alistair himself. Alistair is such a well-written character, he's the royal bastard that likes cheese, likes to lick lamp posts in winter, and is meant to be the leader of the party as Morrigan says, but instead is a follower.

So after I finished my 2nd playthrough, I started up another playthrough (An Arcane Warrior Blood Mage) to try to get the "Recruiter" achievement and get the Warden-Redeemer ending.

After about 40 hours of gameplay , I was at the landsmeet again. After a duel with Loghain where I spammed "Blood Wound" and "Fireball" and about 10 lesser health poultices, Riordan again suggested to put Loghain through the joining, Alistair shouts at Riordan.

As much as I hated Loghain and the "double crossing b****" Anora, I agreed with Riordan.

Alistair then started talking about the joining being an honour, not a punishment, still I suggestted that Loghain should go through the joining. He then wanted to become king just so that he could execute Loghain, and I said no and made Anora queen. She then wanted Alistair to be executed, and I felt then that the only way I could at least do something good for Alistair was by not allowing Anora to execute him. After about 2 minutes of an intense argument, Alistair finally walked away.

So I ask to the people that recruited Loghain, was it hard for you to betray Alistair ? (and i'm not talking about just literally selecting a dialogue option)

Do you prefer Alistair or Loghain in your party (in terms of combat) ?

Edit: Renamed title to avoid spoilers.

Modifié par Kardelo, 22 juin 2011 - 01:58 .

[Wulfram]

I didn't see it as a betrayal. I was annoyed at Alistair for screwing up my plans to unite Fereldan.

Really, if Alistair was so insistent Loghain must die he should have brought it up earlier. After my warden had accepted Loghain's surrender, there wasn't really any prospect of killing him.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 juin 2011 - 01:41 .

[blothulfur]

A grey warden does everything in his power to end the blight and uses anything, throwing away a general whose strategic genius has been proven in battle (if not in politics) would be a spectacularly wasteful move.

Alistair just has to crack feebles jokes, sit looking pretty on his throne for the common people, plough the queen until he begets an heir or proves it won't happen and obey my and Anoras orders or his calling will come a lot earlier than expected and we'll just find some blonde haired lad for Anny to seduce.

[Corker]

The only one I really want to throttle in all of this is Riordan, who should have briefed us on the whole Archdemon-soul thing at Eamon's, instead of vaguely mentioning that we'd talk after the Landsmeet.

Player-me generally wants to spare Loghain. It was a duel til one party yielded. He yielded. Game over.

My city and Dalish elves were out for revenge after the Alienage quest and killed him. My Cousland was too in love to do the thing she thought was right. My Brosca figured Alistair should fight this human Proving, and hardened Alistair cut Loghain down.

Surana was the only one who actually recruited Loghain. And while he felt Alistair was a good-hearted man, he was not impressed with the hiding-of-the-heritage and the avoiding-responsibility and the making-me-look-bad-at-Landsmeet, and the choice was pretty easy for him. He did ask Anora to spare his fellow Warden.

[Engal]

Is Loghain really such a good general? At Ostagar, he was unaware of the size of the darksapwn army, leading to a large portion of Ferelden's forces being massacred. IIRC, they fought in the valley instead of from the high ground. He turned down aid from the Wardens and army of Orlais, presumably thinking that he could win without their help -- a possible occupation is better than being exterminated by a Blight. Then, at the Landsmeet, Loghain still seemed to think he and his vastly outnumbered army could triumph if only the nobles sided against that pesky Warden.

Modifié par Engal, 22 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[blothulfur]

In the books he is represented as such, in the game everybody acknowledge that he is and his past victiories against superior numbers speak for him but the devs make a number of strategically odd decisions such as charging out of a natural chokepoint at Ostagar against superior numbers.

In other words he is I think supposed to be a great general but the devs need to look up some basic strategies and military history, certainly on the subject of an occupation being better than a blight Loghain would disagree somewhat vociferously because that is his blind spot.

[errant_knight]

I totally see it as a betrayal, and have never had a Warden that was even willing to consider it, at least partly because all my PCs have agreed with Alistair about Loghain. From a gamplay perspective, you gain nothing from taking Loghain except roleplay options and some new dialogue, so it's easy to skip. I just read the dialogue in the toolset. I have a 'villain' PC that may do it if I get her that far, but it's not something I really want to play, myself.

[Zjarcal]

Wulfram wrote...

I didn't see it as a betrayal. I was annoyed at Alistair for screwing up my plans to unite Fereldan.

Really, if Alistair was so insistent Loghain must die he should have brought it up earlier. After my warden had accepted Loghain's surrender, there wasn't really any prospect of killing him.

This.

A betrayal implies a breaking of an agreement of sorts. My warden never had any sort of agreement with Alistair about killing Loghain (in fact whenever Loghain was mentioned prior to the Landsmeet she actually suggested reasoning with him), the only thing they agreed on was stopping the blight.

Therefore my warden never betrayed him by sparing Loghain. That Alistair felt that way is not my problem (nor did my warden care enough to change her mind). He can enjoy his drinks at the Hanged Man for all I care.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 22 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

What betrayal?
Even if it was a betrayal, I don't really care. And since I have him executed, I doubt Alistair cares either.

[Chewin]

blothulfur wrote...

A grey warden does everything in his power to end the blight and uses anything, throwing away a general whose strategic genius has been proven in battle (if not in politics) would be a spectacularly wasteful move.

I agree with this. The problem with most people is that the think Grey Wardens are 'White Wardens', which they are not.

Plus, as we all know, the Grey Wardens are known for ignoring a recruit's racial, social, national, and even criminal background if they deem the person valuable in terms of character or ability. So this makes Alistair a little childish when it comes to the meaning of being a Grey Warden, though I don't blame him for that.

Modifié par Chewin3, 22 juin 2011 - 04:34 .

[Bleachrude]

 I look at it like this...

Let's ignore Ostagar (as a poster mentioned above, if Ostagar is an example of Loghain's skill, that's NOT what I would count as a good showing...) and everything afterward up to the Landsmeet

I've only taken part in one joining and two out of the three recruits didnt make it....Now, one warden I HAVE and I'm going to give that up for another POTENTIAL warden? As the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush...

Indeed, if one truly values Loghain's supposed skill on the battlefield (and it should be noted that Orlais lost partly because the emperor refused to send more troops), why the hell would you jeopardize that by making him undergo the joining to become a warden...He doesn't actually NEED to be a warden to use those skills...

If anything, given what Riordan tells me afterwards I'd be super-pissed since as a Grey Warden, he's going to be in the thick of the fighting and wont be able to act as a general since you know, a grey warden has to kill the archdemon...

Now, if this had been Ser Cauthien..why the hell couldn't I recruit her?

And this isn't even getting into actions that happen in-game

(As mentioned, if you're an elf, Loghain pretty much is going to die unless you're playing an evil elf like you accepted Vaughn's offer of money).

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What betrayal?
Even if it was a betrayal, I don't really care. And since I have him executed, I doubt Alistair cares either.

That's because you missed his dying words where all he could do was lament Arcturus' "betrayal"... and then vowed to stalk him as a ghost.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What betrayal?
Even if it was a betrayal, I don't really care. And since I have him executed, I doubt Alistair cares either.

That's because you missed his dying words where all he could do was lament Arcturus' "betrayal"... and then vowed to stalk him as a ghost.

Because not even the Fade can stand him?

[galelabriel]

My 1st playthrough, my Warden let anyone live who surrendered. Loghain yielded, so he lived. I didn't want to hurt Alistair, but I was upset with him that he walked away afterwards. Thought it was pretty childish. I would have let Howe surrender as well, but no option there. Was just the mindset of my first character. I don't hesistate to kill him or have Al kill him with other characters I've done so far.

[Arthur Cousland]

I recruited Loghain once, mainly for the achievement. I just reasoned, that it was too risky to have Alistair fighting darkspawn when he's supposed to become king, lest he ends up like Cailan, and so Loghain was needed as his replacement.

I've done several playthroughs since, and Loghain has died every time, all but once by my wardens' hand. The one time I let Alistair kill him, was when Alistair also died, killing the archdemon (no ritual).

[Haradmir]

 I prefer Loghain, and don't see picking him over Alistair as a betrayal of any kind, for reasons stated by others above.

1) No way I trust Alistair having any position of power in Ferelden; from what I've experienced, I don't trust his ability to lead at all, and would much rather have Anora on the throne, as the game seems to tell you that she's rather good at that sort of thing. He doesn't even want the position himself anyways, so let him go off and have his drinks while somebody who doesn't mind the job, and actually has the capacity to do it well, takes it.

2) He's a famed military general and killing him would be a waste. If I'd really had my choice though, I might not have made him a Warden immediately due to the uncertainty of surviving the joining, if I made him one at all...  

3) I enjoyed the opportunity to talk to him and learn more about the character. 

4) Honestly, I can do without Alistair's whining, immaturity, and little jokes, because at the end of the day, I'd rather have Loghain on my side. He's been a great tank for me,  and worth sacrificing Alistair for. 

Alistair's protests when I made the call to spare Loghain just further convinced me that I'd made a sound choice for my character. The way he put it made it seem like he was most concerned about revenge, not uniting and doing what was best for Ferelden. <_<

Modifié par Haradmir, 22 juin 2011 - 09:59 .

[GarrusV4karian]

Chewin3 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

A grey warden does everything in his power to end the blight and uses anything, throwing away a general whose strategic genius has been proven in battle (if not in politics) would be a spectacularly wasteful move.

I agree with this. The problem with most people is that the think Grey Wardens are 'White Wardens', which they are not.

Exactly. Scrolling down old topics, most people think Grey Warndens are angles or saints.

[LT123]

I see it as a betrayal. You're choosing to honor the guy who left the Grey Wardens and king to die, sold city elves into slavery, had Eamon poisoned, tried to have you killed, and whatever else I've forgotten over Alistair, who's had your back since Ostagar even if he hates you.

And regarding Alistair's leadership abilities, pay attention at Ostagar (Duncan sending you off to Wilds, wounded soldier scene in the Wilds). You're the leader because of gameplay mechanics, but Alistair's the one in charge of you, Jory, and Daveth and he does a fine job. This from a guy who's had it driven into his head since he was little that he was never going to be king. He also freaks out at the idea of leading because  that mean he would be in charge of an entire country, which frankly should be enough to scare the daylights out of anyone.

It's worth sparing Loghain at least once-marrying Alistair to Anora- just to hear Alistair yell at you after the Landsmeet and be bitterly sarcastic at the end of the game. Steve Valentine is amazing.That was for my "let's make all the decisions I didn't make in the first playthrough" game.

And then I picked all the "die screaming in a fire" options back at camp. Tabris was not pleased.

[Obadiah]

I see it as a betrayal. Alistair is pretty loyal and helpful to a fault most of the time. I only recruited Loghain once I knew how to make Alistair the King as well. Otherwise, Alistair's rant at the Landsmeet is quite compelling, and frankly, since Ostagar every one of my characters wanted Loghain dead.

I think the devs should have done more with that choice though - they should have added some story arc that made Loghain more sympathetic, or given the player a decent chance to convince Alistair not to leave if Loghain joined.

GarrusV4karian wrote...
....
Exactly. Scrolling down old topics, most people think Grey Warndens are angles or saints.

Not so sure about that. The Joining Ritual sort of throws that idea out the window.

Modifié par Obadiah, 22 juin 2011 - 10:55 .

[Bleachrude]

The idea that "Grey wardens aren't angels or saints and thus we'll recruit slavers, maleficars and traitors" is one that is actually the naive notion.

Keep in mind that in Origins, you'll notice that MANY of the NPCs that aren't working for Loghain express skepticism that the grey wardens betrayed Cailan but do you honestly think that if the order was known as a haven for the most unsavory of people that the common folk would have the same disbelief?

Indeed, even Daveth (yeah, the guy who escaped hanging) ironically shows this...Daveth is slightly in awe of the fact that he was invited to the order and is willing to fight the darkspawn even if he is scared since he considers it a honour

Think about it...if the vast majority of the order are "selfish and evil" people, what exactly would be honourable about the order, and more importantly, what actually would compel said people to fight (Duncan for example gets used as an example of how the order recruits anyone but Duncan constantly was trying to escape and only the more honourable wardens get dragging him back)

There's also the longterm implications with regard to the Right of Conscription. The RoC is NOT a magical compulsion but simply one that the various groups/nations support but as shown by the fact that Ferelden threw out the wardens, there's nothing preventing said groups/nations from saying NO.

The Chantry for example is going to be very annoyed since not only has the RoC been used to take away one of their recruits but used to take away a person who used a bloodmage (and throw in what Anders does in DA2 and I'm stunned that the Divine isn't laying the blame at the 1st warden's feet)

THEN there's also the fact that making Loghain general of your army should logically cause much bristling and actual resentment among your allies.

We have the elves (Dalish and city):
Loghain : Ok, Shanni and Lanya I need you to go here and....
Shanni and Lanya: Aren't you the one that sold the city elves to the hated Tevinters?
Loghain: Yep, no worries, I'm on your side now...
Shanni and Lanya: .........

How about the Templars?
Wait, we're supposed to be taking orders from a guy who not only snatched a maleficar after we hunted him down but then threw said templar into a dungeon and let him suffer lyrium withdrawl? Really, we're going to listen to you?

The mages
Let's see...said battle plan at Ostagar (and as another poster mentioned, the Ostagar battle plan sucked all types of fail) resulted in many of our number dying (if they were males...lucky them) and then there's your man Uldred....right..

Banns and Arls opposed to Loghain during the civil war
So, when Loghain imprisoned us, killed others and basically acted like Meghren he was RIGHT? And now we have to take orders from said Meghren-lite?

Hell, we see this in Awakening where an Orlesian Commandeer of the Grey gets a rough time from the populace compared to the Hero of Ferelden. Frankly, the closest real world analogue I can think of is having a German general at the end of WWII being made general of Israel's army. Not even if the general was Rommel (and he's one that even the israelis consider one of the few "good" ones as he was known to ignore orders concerning jewish citizens/prisoners) would that fly.

Of course, there's also the long term implications for Ferelden politically. Allowing Loghain to become a hero has the nasty habit of justifying Loghain's actions during the game and quite frankly, this is the biggest reason why I'd be worried about making Loghain a general.

How exactly do you teach Fereldens that slavery is wrong, that poisoning political opponents is like taking part of the despised Orlesian "The Game" or that using assassins to kill people is something only those Antivans do and not Fereldans when you just "rewarded" Loghain by making him the general/hero of the blight?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corker wrote...

Player-me generally wants to spare Loghain. It was a duel til one party yielded. He yielded. Game over.

This.

re: Betrayal, if my character is friendly towards Alistair then I always consider it some sort of betrayal. Friends going against friends is never pleasant. But that said, while it may feel like betrayal, I don't believe friends should *always* go along with what friends--even if they're lovers. Sometimes we want bad things, and these shouldn't be indulged. Call it tough love

(Note: I am not stating that Alistair wanting to kill Loghain is 'bad', since that's a debate that could go forever. I'm just making a general observation.)

[Jedimaster88]

I remember seeing a youtube video where someone chooces Loghain over Alistair and lets Alistair to get executed. This female warden was in love with him. That was soooo cold and cruel. I too feel it as a betrayal which is why I never can bring myself to do it. I´ve watched Loghains dialogue from youtube and I didnt feel it that impressive.

One game review in my country compared the grey wardens to the foreign legion or whatever its called. Correct me if Im wrong, but the way I understand it, the foreign legion does recruit people with some criminal background and so on. However I also got the idea that even they dont recruit just anybody. If the person has done something very terrible and big, they wont accept him/she because you know it can anger many people and hurt the legion as a whole. Not sure if it is like this novadays.

Same can be said about Loghain. If he becomes a grey warden and survives the final battle, I think it may cause trouble later for the order. I may very well be wrong and my personal feelings about Loghain do effect my thoughts a bit, but I wouldnt be suprised either. If I remember correctly, doesnt he get transfered to serve with the orlesians because his presense might cause some trouble in Ferelden, if he survives. Again correct me if Im wrong.

Some one of you say that Alistair is immature in the landsmeet. Well I can say same about Loghain and Anora if things dont go the way THEY want. One person said it well in the topic about loghain, No one is at their best in the landsmeet, no paragons there. I wonder does no one in the world of dragon age ever think about the long term effects of their actions, because if they did, things might not be so bad always.

We know Loghain has skills and such. However the way I see it, he failed to use those skills when they should have been used properly. Instead he wastes them in that civil war he started.
Why should I recruit and give mercy to a man, who did many nasty things because he thought he was right, failed to see and admit the real threat and fight it and who would have doomed Ferelden if not for the warden? Alistair stays loyal, is a good friend and like a brother to my warden and has skills. I also understand he becomes a great king, especially if you harden him. Maybe even better if married to anora. Hardened Alistair also makes a good point about Anora and Loghain. They are the sort of person who think they alone can fix things and everyone should just stay out of their way. Im not eager to trust the leadership of a country or an army to people like them. Good leaders know when to listen others, despite their personal thoughts.

Some argue that being a warden is a punishment itself. I disagree. I see it as an honor. A chance for many people to do something right in their life because we all know why they are important. Anders shows us that you do can leave the order. There is nothing actually stopping you from leaving. Sure you carry the taint but you get what...about 30 years or something to live. You have nightmares but you can also find love, friends and enjoy all the pleasures of life before you die. Now I should give Loghain this opportunity. Not likely.

You do make good points that Alistair needs to become a king and therefore he must live. Recruiting Loghain does give this chance and you can sacrifise him to the archdemon if you dont want morrigans ritual. Friend dont always agree about everything. In DA2 you are actually a better friend sometimes when you say NO in right situations. Still the sacrifise death means people will remember Loghain as a hero and go on like he NEVER did anything wrong so Im not sure if thats a good thing either.

In the end I think it comes to us as players. Whe choose who deserves what in our minds and live with it. I happen to be those who chooses Alistair over Loghain in every terms. Just my opinions and the debates could go on and on and they actually do.

[Jedimaster88]

Sorry about some of the errors in my text. When I get into things, I dont always notice everything I should.

[gandanlin]

Loghain seemed a little too paranoid and power-mad to be trusted, so I felt there were sufficient grounds quite aside from being loyal to Alistair for not choosing to recruit him (Loghain). It is true that the Wardens recruit from unlikely pools of talent, but there is (at least in my mind) generally something noble about those that are chosen. Loghain was noble at one point, but by the time the Landsmeet rolls around he has gone over the edge into madness.

Alistair almost idolized Duncan, so the betrayal at Ostagar of Duncan (by Loghain) cut Alistair very deeply. Maybe more deeply than the betrayal of the king. I could sort of understand where Alistair was coming from, so I suppose I will always have great difficulty recruiting Loghain. However great a fighter Loghain may be, he is a traitor of the worst stripe. So he will never darken my camps with his presence.

Oooh, my, that sounded official, didn't it?

Modifié par gandanlin, 23 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Chewin3 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

A grey warden does everything in his power to end the blight and uses anything, throwing away a general whose strategic genius has been proven in battle (if not in politics) would be a spectacularly wasteful move.

I agree with this. The problem with most people is that the think Grey Wardens are 'White Wardens', which they are not.

Plus, as we all know, the Grey Wardens are known for ignoring a recruit's racial, social, national, and even criminal background if they deem the person valuable in terms of character or ability. So this makes Alistair a little childish when it comes to the meaning of being a Grey Warden, though I don't blame him for that.

All this.

Alistair says that being Joined with the Grey Wardens is an honor --and maybe it feels like one, when you volunteer. A lot of Grey Wardens wind up being so because it's either that or death, and they have too much fight in them to want to die, and too much worth as fighters to let go to waste. This applies to Loghain x 10.

Also, having fought alongside both of them, I find Loghain a WAY better fighting companion than Alistair. It would be metagaming to recruit him for that reason, but just be assured that if you do choose to let Loghain fight alongside you, you won't regret it.

And his party banter with the other companions is quite entertaining as well.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 24 juin 2011 - 02:08 .