71 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Would have been interesting to have them both in my party. Alistair/Loghain banter would be fun.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Would have been interesting to have them both in my party. Alistair/Loghain banter would be fun.

Absolutely. I think BioWare missed out big time on some great opportunities --for character interaction/development, drama, snark, you name it. I don't know if they just ran out of time or budget, or what.

For the record, we here on the boards tried a "Top 10 Alistair/Loghain Party Banters, If Only" some time ago. So many possibilities.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I believe there was some Alistair/Loghain banter found in the toolset. Someone found at least one in Return to Ostagar. Maybe Bioware decided it would be more dramatic or true to Alistair's character to have him storm off--it definitely made the decision harder if you like Alistair but don't want to execute Loghain.

I more wish you could go after Alistair after the Landsmeet, before he runs too far away. Feels a bit of a loose thread that you couldn't even try looking for him.

[Zjarcal]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

For the record, we here on the boards tried a "Top 10 Alistair/Loghain Party Banters, If Only" some time ago. So many possibilities.

Damn, that was already 10 months ago?!?

Time flies in here.

[astreqwerty]

i think the worst part of dao is loghain...he was so terribly written and reasonated that his stupidly one dimensional character didnt emanate any form of moral dillema..all i can say about this poor accident of biowares otherwise brilliant writting is : kill it with fire!!

so no i never betray alistair(imo siding with loghain is the utter definition of betrayal..)plus i dont see how his existense serves as and aid to the battle against the blight either)

[Engal]

^ astreqwerty, I agree with you about Loghain being written as a one-dimensional vilian before the Landsmeet. After the Landsmeet, it's a different story.

1) Ostagar -- the battle was lost, and there was no sense sacrificing the rest of the army. As Loghain points out (and IIRC was mentioned before the battle), Loghain recommended that Cailan not lead the charge, but Cailan insisted. Presumably, Loghain lying about what happened and blaming the Gray Wardens was him trying to establish a scapegoat.

I still can't help thinking that Loghain wanted the battle to be a disaster so the Gray Wardens would perish. Loghain really distrusted the Gray Wardens and thought they were the puppets of Orlais; OTOH, after the Landsmeet, Loghain remarked on how much he cared for his soldiers and that he'd lost as much as anyone that day. It really might have been just a battle plan that went disastrously wrong, and with most of the Gray Wardens dead, Loghain figured he might as well just hire an assassin to take out the two that survived the battle. (Howe had Riordan locked up in the dungeon.)

2) The slaves and the rest of it were pretty much Loghain adopting the ultimate ends-justify-the-means outlook and doing whatever he thought necessary to save his country and countrymen. (Even the elves, he reasoned, were better off as slaves. Being sold as slaves got them out of the least defensible part of the city and raised money to fund the war against the Blight. When asked in camp, Loghain said that the elves were better off as slaves rather than dead.)

3) Anora fearing for her life. Loghain said he'd never kill his only child, and Anora was just trying to play on the Warden's sympathies to get the Warden's help at the Landsmeet. I'm not completely sure I believe him -- Loghain is willing to lie, as he does at the Landsmeet if you accuse him of poisoning the Arl.

4) I don't understand why he thought it necessary to poison Arl Eamon. He presumably figured the Arl would get in his way of doing what was necessary to save Ferelden, and poisoning was the most efficacious way to get rid of him

5) Torture -- Not a problem for an ends-justify-the-means guy if he thinks the prisoner has vital information.

I don't agree at all with Loghain's perspective, but on most of what he did, I understand where he's coming from. He'll do whatever is necessary to save his country and countrymen. That comes first. He's up against almost impossible odds. He has to do what's most effective, and idealistic behavior is a luxury he can't afford. As he says, I think just before slaying the Archdemon, "I do my duty, as I always have."

With what I saw after the Landsmeet, I personally don't feel that Loghain deserves execution. What's right is for him to be given a chance to atone for his (many) mistakes. (And at least in my playthrough he didn't get a statue, at least not just for himself. The statue was dedicated to the Gray Wardens, including Loghain, for defeating the Archdemon and ending the Blight. Nothing in the epilogue said that the people forgot the bad things Loghain had done.)

However, yes, Alistair definitely does view sparing Loghain as a betrayal, even if that's not the Warden's intention. For what it's worth, for me, Alistair didn't end up a drunk since he was married to Anora as King and Queen. He seemed to have mostly forgiven me although he seemed sad about no longer being a Gray Warden.

Modifié par Engal, 26 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[astreqwerty]

Engal wrote...

^ astreqwerty, I agree with you about Loghain being written as a one-dimensional vilian before the Landsmeet. After the Landsmeet, it's a different story.

1) Ostagar -- the battle was lost, and there was no sense sacrificing the rest of the army. As Loghain points out (and IIRC was mentioned before the battle), Loghain recommended that Cailan not lead the charge, but Cailan insisted. Presumably, Loghain lying about what happened and blaming the Gray Wardens was him trying to establish a scapegoat.

I still can't help thinking that Loghain wanted the battle to be a disaster so the Gray Wardens would perish. Loghain really distrusted the Gray Wardens and thought they were the puppets of Orlais; OTOH, after the Landsmeet, Loghain remarked on how much he cared for his soldiers and that he'd lost as much as anyone that day. It really might have been just a battle plan that went disastrously wrong, and with most of the Gray Wardens dead, Loghain figured he might as well just hire an assassin to take out the two that survived the battle. (Howe had Riordan locked up in the dungeon.)

2) The slaves and the rest of it were pretty much Loghain adopting the ultimate ends-justify-the-means outlook and doing whatever he thought necessary to save his country and countrymen. (Even the elves, he reasoned, were better off as slaves. Being sold as slaves got them out of the least defensible part of the city and raised money to fund the war against the Blight. When asked in camp, Loghain said that the elves were better off as slaves rather than dead.)

3) Anora fearing for her life. Loghain said he'd never kill his only child, and Anora was just trying to play on the Warden's sympathies to get the Warden's help at the Landsmeet. I'm not completely sure I believe him -- Loghain is willing to lie, as he does at the Landsmeet if you accuse him of poisoning the Arl.

4) I don't understand why he thought it necessary to poison Arl Eamon. He presumably figured the Arl would get in his way of doing what was necessary to save Ferelden, and poisoning was the most efficacious way to get rid of him

5) Torture -- Not a problem for an ends-justify-the-means guy if he thinks the prisoner has vital information.

I don't agree at all with Loghain's perspective, but on most of what he did, I understand where he's coming from. He'll do whatever is necessary to save his country and countrymen. That comes first. He's up against almost impossible odds. He has to do what's most effective, and idealistic behavior is a luxury he can't afford. As he says, I think just before slaying the Archdemon, "I do my duty, as I always have."

With what I saw after the Landsmeet, I personally don't feel that Loghain deserves execution. What's right is for him to be given a chance to atone for his (many) mistakes. (And at least in my playthrough he didn't get a statue, at least not just for himself. The statue was dedicated to the Gray Wardens, including Loghain, for defeating the Archdemon and ending the Blight. Nothing in the epilogue said that the people forgot the bad things Loghain had done.)

However, yes, Alistair definitely does view sparing Loghain as a betrayal, even if that's not the Warden's intention. For what it's worth, for me, Alistair didn't end up a drunk since he was married to Anora as King and Queen. He seemed to have mostly forgiven me although he seemed sad about no longer being a Gray Warden.

but he actually turned against them..he left the whole fereldan army die with the excuse that the battle was lost..ofc cailans army alone couldnt beat  the darkspawn.he counted on loghain who ultimately betrayed him..bioware writters tried so hard to illustrate loghain as an utter villain and when they tried to develop him as a multi layered character they failed miserably..loghains answers and reason behind his hideous(and illogical/childish) decisions
is an example of very bad(or rushed?) writing...

edit:not to mention the whole slave trade thing and arl eamons poisoning.there is simply no valid justification behind these acts that served as a cheap plot "driver" (if i may call them that)

[Engal]

^ I agree they wrote Loghain as a one-dimensional villain prior to the Landsmeet. Even during the Landsmeet, he didn't come across great. For example, I didn't care for his line about how "none of you spilled blood for this land the way I have." To me, he would have come across better if he had said, "none of you fought and sacrificed for this land the way I have."

Regarding Ostagar, I think the way Loghain sees it is that by making the difficult decision to sound the retreat, he saved part of the army, which is better than having the entire army get slaughtered. If you watch the Ostagar sequence, Loghain does look pissed when he gives the order to withdraw; he just doesn't see what other choice he has. To Loghain, ends justify the means, and he thought everything he did was necessary to save his beloved country and countrymen. That's the problem with taking an ends-justify-the-means approach: it's very easy to lose your way.

[Jedimaster88]

Some things about ostagar bother me a bit. If Loghain truly thought the battle was lost anyways, why did he wait for that signal? When the signal is lit, he seems suprised and after that he orders the retreat. Some people have said that he never intented to have the signal lit which is why he questioned Cailan about sending the warden and Alistair. Then again I have heard other good reasons for him to distrust the wardens. Everytime I see that retreat cutscene, I see madness in his eyes when he looks at Cauthrien and when he looks at the tower, it actually seems as if he is smiling. When I saw it for the first time I thought "you bas****".

As I mentioned in my previous post, he may save half of the army but how much of those forces gets wasted in that civil war HE started. When Anora tries to reason with him, he denies and insists that the nobility will be brought to line and only after that the darkspawn defeated. Nice thinking there. Wonder how much troops he would have had left by that time if not for the warden. I also keep thinking that would he truly had rather let Ferelden get destroyed than accept help and take chances with a possible occupation that may not even happen.

[jareklajkosz]

Corker wrote...

The only one I really want to throttle in all of this is Riordan, who should have briefed us on the whole Archdemon-soul thing at Eamon's, instead of vaguely mentioning that we'd talk after the Landsmeet.

Player-me generally wants to spare Loghain. It was a duel til one party yielded. He yielded. Game over.

My city and Dalish elves were out for revenge after the Alienage quest and killed him. My Cousland was too in love to do the thing she thought was right. My Brosca figured Alistair should fight this human Proving, and hardened Alistair cut Loghain down.

Surana was the only one who actually recruited Loghain. And while he felt Alistair was a good-hearted man, he was not impressed with the hiding-of-the-heritage and the avoiding-responsibility and the making-me-look-bad-at-Landsmeet, and the choice was pretty easy for him. He did ask Anora to spare his fellow Warden.

God, I love you. Playing games where you actually get immersed into your character that you're playing.. that's my style of playing!

I don't think I've ever gotten THAT much into my character (I played "in character" as much as I could, but I did do things that I knew my character wouldn't do in real life, like having my honorable Cousland do Slim Couldry's quests and stealing from everyone in the entire country), but I generally have a plan that I try to stick to before I start the game again. I'm planning on creating a dwarf noble who is an arrogant bastard that is out for nothing but money and hates every minute of being a Warden.. but I'm not sure if I can bring myself to do a few things that this character would do - abandon Redcliffe to its' fate, kill the Dalish elves because he believes the Werewolves are much stronger, kill noble Caridin and use the Anvil to create more golems, even knowing that his own brethren get killed in the process, siding with the Cult of Andraste because they promise power, etc. I might settle for a dwarf noble who has some compassion for others and will not do completely despicable things, but will always think "me and money first" when it comes to speaking to people. My own morals just couldn't bear doing some of the more.. morbid things, mainly abandoning Redcliffe to the undead, killing Connor outright because it's easier than the alternative, among others.

Hats off to you, however! Getting emotionally involved in your character makes the game so much more rewarding to play.

[jareklajkosz]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Some things about ostagar bother me a bit. If Loghain truly thought the battle was lost anyways, why did he wait for that signal? When the signal is lit, he seems suprised and after that he orders the retreat. Some people have said that he never intented to have the signal lit which is why he questioned Cailan about sending the warden and Alistair. Then again I have heard other good reasons for him to distrust the wardens. Everytime I see that retreat cutscene, I see madness in his eyes when he looks at Cauthrien and when he looks at the tower, it actually seems as if he is smiling. When I saw it for the first time I thought "you bas****".

As I mentioned in my previous post, he may save half of the army but how much of those forces gets wasted in that civil war HE started. When Anora tries to reason with him, he denies and insists that the nobility will be brought to line and only after that the darkspawn defeated. Nice thinking there. Wonder how much troops he would have had left by that time if not for the warden. I also keep thinking that would he truly had rather let Ferelden get destroyed than accept help and take chances with a possible occupation that may not even happen.

Loghain would have already been under the influence of Arl Howe for some time before that.. I can't imagine any other reason for Howe slaughtering house Cousland than already having prior arrangements with Loghain that would keep Howe safe from retribution. This obviously assumes a couple of pretty morbid things, such as Loghain planning to abandon Cailan.

I'm thinking that Loghain never intended to fight the battle, and he purposely dug out the lower chambers of the Tower of Ishal because he knew that would help the darkspawn overrun it, and thus the signal would have never been lit. The Warden and Alistair, obviously, had something to say about that. It's hard to really pinpoint exactly what motivated Loghain throughout the game.. he's a very complicated character that seemed to be on a fine line between doing what he thought best for Ferelden and plunging into complete madness.

[Haradmir]

jareklajkosz wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Some things about ostagar bother me a bit. If Loghain truly thought the battle was lost anyways, why did he wait for that signal? When the signal is lit, he seems suprised and after that he orders the retreat. Some people have said that he never intented to have the signal lit which is why he questioned Cailan about sending the warden and Alistair. Then again I have heard other good reasons for him to distrust the wardens. Everytime I see that retreat cutscene, I see madness in his eyes when he looks at Cauthrien and when he looks at the tower, it actually seems as if he is smiling. When I saw it for the first time I thought "you bas****".

As I mentioned in my previous post, he may save half of the army but how much of those forces gets wasted in that civil war HE started. When Anora tries to reason with him, he denies and insists that the nobility will be brought to line and only after that the darkspawn defeated. Nice thinking there. Wonder how much troops he would have had left by that time if not for the warden. I also keep thinking that would he truly had rather let Ferelden get destroyed than accept help and take chances with a possible occupation that may not even happen.

Loghain would have already been under the influence of Arl Howe for some time before that.. I can't imagine any other reason for Howe slaughtering house Cousland than already having prior arrangements with Loghain that would keep Howe safe from retribution. This obviously assumes a couple of pretty morbid things, such as Loghain planning to abandon Cailan.

I'm thinking that Loghain never intended to fight the battle, and he purposely dug out the lower chambers of the Tower of Ishal because he knew that would help the darkspawn overrun it, and thus the signal would have never been lit. The Warden and Alistair, obviously, had something to say about that. It's hard to really pinpoint exactly what motivated Loghain throughout the game.. he's a very complicated character that seemed to be on a fine line between doing what he thought best for Ferelden and plunging into complete madness.

We know the darkspawn love to dig, so I have no problem believing that they dug through to the tower's lower chambers. In DA:A, doesn't the basement of Vigil's Keep connect through tunnels to the Deep Roads? If the Tower of Ishal is old enough I don't see why they couldn't just dig through....and I really don't think Loghain would have sabotaged things by having passages dug out beneath the tower. It makes little sense for his character. 

I haven't completed the human noble origin yet, but I thought Howe was operating on his own when he slaughtered the Couslands...don't see what that has to do with Loghain. [Ehh well, I suppose them being removed could be advantageous to him...]

Modifié par Haradmir, 26 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[Jedimaster88]

It certainly is hard to say because we dont get that much info. From what I have read, according to some official sources, Loghain didnt originally intend to abandon Cailan, but he made preparations in case he would. His "convince" talk to Cailan before briefing, didnt sound that convincing. Either he was too tired to even bother anymore or he just said it for the show because he knew what the answer would be and that way he could say he did his best. I dont know. I maybe thinking too much into this.

The Cousland massacre is also kind of interesting. I find it hard to believe, Howe did what he did just because it happened to be a perfect opportunity. Would he truly do something like that unless he already knew something would happen to Cailan and so on? I havent heard anything about this so its hard to say.

[jareklajkosz]

Haradmir wrote...

jareklajkosz wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Some things about ostagar bother me a bit. If Loghain truly thought the battle was lost anyways, why did he wait for that signal? When the signal is lit, he seems suprised and after that he orders the retreat. Some people have said that he never intented to have the signal lit which is why he questioned Cailan about sending the warden and Alistair. Then again I have heard other good reasons for him to distrust the wardens. Everytime I see that retreat cutscene, I see madness in his eyes when he looks at Cauthrien and when he looks at the tower, it actually seems as if he is smiling. When I saw it for the first time I thought "you bas****".

As I mentioned in my previous post, he may save half of the army but how much of those forces gets wasted in that civil war HE started. When Anora tries to reason with him, he denies and insists that the nobility will be brought to line and only after that the darkspawn defeated. Nice thinking there. Wonder how much troops he would have had left by that time if not for the warden. I also keep thinking that would he truly had rather let Ferelden get destroyed than accept help and take chances with a possible occupation that may not even happen.

Loghain would have already been under the influence of Arl Howe for some time before that.. I can't imagine any other reason for Howe slaughtering house Cousland than already having prior arrangements with Loghain that would keep Howe safe from retribution. This obviously assumes a couple of pretty morbid things, such as Loghain planning to abandon Cailan.

I'm thinking that Loghain never intended to fight the battle, and he purposely dug out the lower chambers of the Tower of Ishal because he knew that would help the darkspawn overrun it, and thus the signal would have never been lit. The Warden and Alistair, obviously, had something to say about that. It's hard to really pinpoint exactly what motivated Loghain throughout the game.. he's a very complicated character that seemed to be on a fine line between doing what he thought best for Ferelden and plunging into complete madness.

We know the darkspawn love to dig, so I have no problem believing that they dug through to the tower's lower chambers. In DA:A, doesn't the basement of Vigil's Keep connect through tunnels to the Deep Roads? If the Tower of Ishal is old enough I don't see why they couldn't just dig through....and I really don't think Loghain would have sabotaged things by having passages dug out beneath the tower. It makes little sense for his character. 

I haven't completed the human noble origin yet, but I thought Howe was operating on his own when he slaughtered the Couslands...don't see what that has to do with Loghain. [Ehh well, I suppose them being removed could be advantageous to him...]

As far as the Tower of Ishal, you may be right.. however, I found it very, very suspicious that the guard at the Tower mentioned lower chambers, and that ONLY Loghain's men were allowed to deal with them. They MUST have realized that the lower chambers of the Tower led to the battlefield, and that darkspawn could have eventually came in and overrun it, and hindered or stopped the signal from being lit entirely. It's entirely possible that Loghain, even if unconsciously, simply allowed this because he knew he was going to quit the field anyways, so what did it matter to him if darkspawn overran the tower? Even if he didn't do it with any plans in mind, the fact of the matter is that they must have known that the chambers led to the battlefield, and failing to mention that to anyone else only shows that he didn't care for the battle. Afterall, I'm sure the people responsible for guarding the tower and lighting the beacon would have *liked* to know that there was a danger of darkspawn overruning it, and thus finding alternate means to signaling Loghain's men.

Or, it was just used as an excuse to infest the tower with darkspawn for the player to fight to gain some experience while climbing the tower. This is probably more likely, sadly.

As for Howe/Loghain..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DO NOT READ THE REST OF THIS IF YOU DO NOT WANT THE NOBLE ORIGIN STORY SPOILED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Arl Howe claimed to kill the Couslands because they were betraying Ferelden. He claimed that Bryce Cousland was having dealings with the Orlesians, and was accepting gifts from "old enemies" (presumably, the Orlesians). It's entirely possible that Howe wanted to kill the Couslands because of that much sooner (not to mention his lust for power), but never had the opportunity because he knew that striking without cause would have created a massive uproar that would have eventually ended in his family being stripped of land and titles, or worse. He needed an opportunity. It was not explicitly stated in the game itself, but it's possible that Loghain knew of Howe's ambitious nature, and wanted to take advantage of that so as to not get himself directly involved in all the horrible things that Howe ended up doing.. and if Bryce Cousland did indeed have dealings with the Orlesians, then he was just as much a threat to Loghain as he was to Howe himself. It is entirely possible that common interest brought them together - a threat to them both is eliminated, Howe is given the opportunity to get rid of them without any immediate repercussions, Loghain doesn't have to dirty his own hands to do it, and Howe gets more titles, power and opportunity to do even more despicable things to further his own ends later on. I think there's enough substance in the story to draw some conclusions, but again, it's all mostly conjecture.

EDIT: Some of this is also further reinforce in one of the dialog options when meeting Howe at the end of the game. One of the options is an intimidate option to scold (don't know a better word ATM) Howe for what he did (I think), and he responds by saying that look in your eyes is the same look that he saw every time a success of the Couslands hindered his own plans. Read into that what you will.

Modifié par jareklajkosz, 26 juin 2011 - 10:19 .

[Monica21]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

It certainly is hard to say because we dont get that much info. From what I have read, according to some official sources, Loghain didnt originally intend to abandon Cailan, but he made preparations in case he would. His "convince" talk to Cailan before briefing, didnt sound that convincing. Either he was too tired to even bother anymore or he just said it for the show because he knew what the answer would be and that way he could say he did his best. I dont know. I maybe thinking too much into this.

Loghain did what any good general does, and that's have a plan for retreat. It's pretty widely accepted in-game that the darkspawn horde at Ostagar was larger than expected, the beacon was late (Alistair says you've probably missed the signal), and by the time the beacon is lit, the battle is lost. As for the war council meeting, I got the impression that this was one of those conversations they'd had over and over and yes, Loghain was really finding it tiresome making the same point over and over again.

The Cousland massacre is also kind of interesting. I find it hard to believe, Howe did what he did just because it happened to be a perfect opportunity. Would he truly do something like that unless he already knew something would happen to Cailan and so on? I havent heard anything about this so its hard to say.

Your father tells you that Howe intends to advance himself and Duncan tells Cailan, "He would have told you whatever story he wished." He had nothing to lose, really. Every time I read questions about Howe's involvement it always makes it out to be much more complicated than it is. Howe's plan is pretty simple: catch everyone off-guard, kill them, Fergus meets with an unfortunate "accident," Howe lies to Cailan, and boom, Howe is the new Teryn of Highever. 

And I have to note, I've been away from these forums for months now, and this topic of Loghain is still going on. Interesting character for sure, no matter what your belief about his actions.

Modifié par Monica21, 27 juin 2011 - 02:35 .

[Monica21]

astreqwerty wrote...
but he actually turned against them..he left the whole fereldan army die with the excuse that the battle was lost..ofc cailans army alone couldnt beat  the darkspawn.he counted on loghain who ultimately betrayed him..bioware writters tried so hard to illustrate loghain as an utter villain and when they tried to develop him as a multi layered character they failed miserably..loghains answers and reason behind his hideous(and illogical/childish) decisions
is an example of very bad(or rushed?) writing...

edit:not to mention the whole slave trade thing and arl eamons poisoning.there is simply no valid justification behind these acts that served as a cheap plot "driver" (if i may call them that)

Er, minor point, but he actually saved a large portion of Ferelden's army by retreating. Your beacon was latebecause the darkspawn had already  infiltrated the Tower of Ishal (which is behind your own battle lines, I might add), hindering your progress, and the horde is larger than anticipated. Loghain doesn't know that you're fighting darkspawn, but he knows you're late and knows that something is wrong. He sees the field of battle, and he makes a strategic retreat. 

I think BioWare did quite a good job of making him multi-layered, actually. He is simply not the type of man to explain himself, therefore he doesn't explain to the player. You have to read the codex entries and realize that BioWare doesn't do "long looks into the fire after approving an assassination attempt" for no reason. You do see quite a bit though, through fatigue at arguing with Anora, the "just get it done" and the haunted look after being introduced to Zevran. He's trying keep the country out of civil war or stop the civil war, trying to fight Darkspawn, and is aware that Orlesians are massed on the Ferelden border. The man is rather busy, and has control by a thread, if that.

[nos_astra]

Monica21 wrote...
I think BioWare did quite a good job of making him multi-layered, actually. He is simply not the type of man to explain himself, therefore he doesn't explain to the player.

So the utter lack of a consistent explanation for his odd behaviour and nonsensical decisions make him multi-layered? I don't think so.

His magical foresight about the size of the darkspawn horde didn't amount to much more than retreating from the Battle of Ostagar and subsequently ignoring the darkspawn threat. Because that's what an awesome general does, he closes his eyes and repeats "this is no Blight" three times. That makes the darkspawn horde that is big enough to overwhelm Fereldan's assembled forces go poof, so you can now divide your forces between a civil war you sparked while showing off how much of a failure you must have been as a teyrn (since even twenty years in a political office are not enough to grasp the basics of Fereldan politics) while expecting the Orlesians to attack at any moment (which they don't for at least another seven years).

He has no allies (other than Howe and maybe Ceorlic), no political sense, no reason and sucks at military strategy.

So either he's a paranoid madman or he's a moron. What he is not is well written.

The toolset makes obvious that he was conceived as a one-dimensional character, an antagonist who ruins the country through his arrogance, pride and hubris. Simply cutting content and with it the original (very selfish) reason to get rid of Cailan and mistrust Orlais doesn't make him multi-layered.

I admit, he does have potential, he just doesn't live up to it.

[Siven80]

Betrayal? No.

We need more Grey Wardens, Loghain is a great general and fighter and would make a fine Warden. Alistair is just to emotional and doesnt think of the bigger picture imo and then goes off to sulk.

Also i want to stick up for Anora. She isnt a double crossing b-word unless you double cross her by pointing her out to the guards when rescuing her after she asks you not too.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...
I admit, he does have potential, he just doesn't live up to it.

Which character does, in your opinion?

[Monica21]

klarabella wrote...
So the utter lack of a consistent explanation for his odd behaviour and nonsensical decisions make him multi-layered? I don't think so.

How is his behavior odd? He's a general who's more concerned about a country that occupied Ferelden massing on the border than he is about the Darkspawn, something no one in the game knows anything about.

His magical foresight about the size of the darkspawn horde didn't amount to much more than retreating from the Battle of Ostagar and subsequently ignoring the darkspawn threat. Because that's what an awesome general does, he closes his eyes and repeats "this is no Blight" three times.

Er, he didn't have magical foresight about the darkspawn horde. That was my point. It was bigger than he thought it would be. Scouts have a hard time counting numbers that come up through the ground, I'd think. As for the "this is no Blight" business, no one, not even your character, knew that this was a Blight until your first dream. Duncan says he "believes" it, but believing it and knowing it are two different things. It's clear that none of the Ferelden Wardens, for whatever reason, maybe good, maybe bad, never shared why they knew it was a Blight. In the HN origin you do hear speculation that it's just another raid.

That makes the darkspawn horde that is big enough to overwhelm Fereldan's assembled forces go poof, so you can now divide your forces between a civil war you sparked while showing off how much of a failure you must have been as a teyrn (since even twenty years in a political office are not enough to grasp the basics of Fereldan politics) while expecting the Orlesians to attack at any moment (which they don't for at least another seven years).

There's a good reason why the Teryn of Gwaren is leading forces and not the Teryn of Highever. Loghain is a military man and he always will be. He was given Gwaren as a thank you and not because he was born to it. He was actually a good teryn, but didn't like court and didn't like the politics. (I'm not sure if I'm getting that from the books or from the codex entries, but either way it's true.) So yes, he knew how to lead the people of Gwaren and had their respect, but no, he never did have an intricate understanding of Ferelden politics.

And again, why do you think Ferelden's assembled forces went poof? They didn't. That was the entire point of Loghain retreating.

He has no allies (other than Howe and maybe Ceorlic), no political sense, no reason and sucks at military strategy.

He does have allies other than Howe or Ceorlic or there would be no civil war, just a coup. There are several points during the game where it's quite clear that, had it gone on without a Landsmeet, Loghain's forces would have won.

So either he's a paranoid madman or he's a moron. What he is not is well written.

I don't think he's either, and I do believe he's well-written. One of the better written anti-heroes in any game I've ever played, to be more accurate. BioWare's decision to leave out certain dialogues for efficacy's sake (if that's the reason) does not make him poorly written.

The toolset makes obvious that he was conceived as a one-dimensional character, an antagonist who ruins the country through his arrogance, pride and hubris. Simply cutting content and with it the original (very selfish) reason to get rid of Cailan and mistrust Orlais doesn't make him multi-layered.

Ostagar was not a plan to get rid of Cailan. Cailan was a poor leader who let his wife do most of the leading while he did all the philandering so yeah, that has to be a sore spot. Did Loghain have the right to oust Cailan? Not by himself, but he did have the right to call a Landsmeet. If it weren't for the Darkspawn, that's very likely what would have happened.

[Monica21]

Kardelo wrote...

So I ask to the people that recruited Loghain, was it hard for you to betray Alistair ? (and i'm not talking about just literally selecting a dialogue option)

Do you prefer Alistair or Loghain in your party (in terms of combat) ?

To answer the orginal question, I didn't betray Alistair, he betrayed the Grey Wardens. There's really no reason not to accept Loghain into your ranks and yet Alistair goes on and on about it being an honorable organization. Well, just because it does an honorable thing doesn't mean it's people are honorable. Just ask Daveth, or better yet, a young Duncan. The only thing you really want are people who will be faithful to the order above all else, and Alistair told me that he wasn't. He's lucky that he doesn't get executed in my games.

As for preference in combat, I always respec both so it doesn't matter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I admit, he does have potential, he just doesn't live up to it.

Which character does, in your opinion?

If Loghain doesn't, then no DA:O character does. No scratch that, no Bioware character does.

More could have been shown for sure and that's a  problem in all their games. But what was there was enough for me to know what kind of character he was, who is neither a moron nor a madman (something that I've shown and explained numerous times to the same people). Of course it might be me who is either a moron or a madman for thinking so (or maybe because I read codices, listen to people, look at a map and bother to think about it without having the game hand hold me and tell me what is what). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course it might be me who is either a moron or a madman for thinking so (or maybe because I read codices, listen to people, look at a map and bother to think about it without having the game hand hold me and tell me what is what).  

*coughlaugh

Anyhoo, I'm seriously considering making my avatar that map of Ostagar you made, what, 8 months ago? Although, it probably wouldn't help.....

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I admit, he does have potential, he just doesn't live up to it.

Which character does, in your opinion?

If Loghain doesn't, then no DA:O character does. No scratch that, no Bioware character does.

Yeah, having thought (way too) long and hard about the game story and characters, in my view Loghain is the only DA character that stands up to such scrutiny.  There are others I like, but none are as interesting and well drawn.  And that is partly because he falls so hard.

However I'm not objective anymore, so I'm still interested to hear where such criticism comes from.

And I wish you were an ASoIaF fan.    It would be interesting to discuss some of those characters.

Oh, and Monica, nice to see you. 

Modifié par Addai67, 27 juin 2011 - 05:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

For old time's sake, I am going to break my vow and go into Loghain debates again.

klarabella wrote...
His magical foresight about the size of the darkspawn horde didn't amount to much more than retreating from the Battle of Ostagar and subsequently ignoring the darkspawn threat.

There was no magical foresight. In the previous 3 battles, he noticed that darkspawn were increasing in numbers faster than they could kill them. At the battle itself, only a blind man wouldn't have noticed darkspawn numbers.

And he didn't ignore the darkspawn threat at all. What did he say in the first meeting with all the banns in Denerim? Did he mention Orlais? Did he mention any other enemy than the darkspawn? No. They were the ones who ignored him because they are overglorified landowners who think they are important, when the whole lot of them are treasonous fools who sold themselves to Orlais .

With the civil war errupting and the Orlesian army camping at the borders instead of turning away like they were told, Loghain saw them as the greater threat than the darkspawn who we know don't do anything after Lothering. They just stop (and we see in the deep roads that the Archdemon is still amassing his forces underground). He doens't have the luxury of dreaming about tainted dragons.  He was wrong due to the ambiguity of the entire situation, brought in large part because the Wardens as an order is just idiotic in concept. That doesn't make him mad or a moron.

Loghain handled it very badly and with no political sense that is true. And politics is not something you train and practise for. Not really. You either have it, or you don't. Loghain is a soldier at heart. He expects to be obeyed when he commands. That might have worked in a tradition of absolutist monarchy or a strong hierarchy, but in the mess that is Ferelden, that doesn't work.  He should have known that, and should have known that the bannorn is too stupid to understand without being manipulated and enticed like children and unfortunately he doesn't. That for me is his biggest mistake. After that comes not killing Eamon.

But to claim that he started the civil war is showing little understanding of the entire dynamic. If you read codices, you'll see that Ferelden is highly unstable after the war with Orlais. If you read more, you'll see that this sorry excuse of a country has always been unstable with its banns killing each other over trees.  If you listen to Ignacio, whom its his business to know such things, he says the civil war is about old grudges coming to a boil. If you look at a map, you see that country is almost divided between hinterland and coastlands, so there is an obvious economic dynamic there. In other words, civil wars are too complicated to say that it's one person or one faction that caused it, even one trend. Loghain is partially responsable, but is far from being the only one responsable.  WAs the civil war done well? No, Bioware sucks at plots like this. That doens't mean I have to foolishly claim that civil wars are started by one man, when I have bits and pieces of it not being so.

And saying that Loghain does not have allies is just not paying attention. He wins the Landsmeet by default, until you discover Howe's dungeon / alienage business. His strongest ally is Howe (in large part because his army is intact). That doens't mean he is his only ally.

So either he's a paranoid madman or he's a moron. What he is not is well written.

I am curious, what happens to those who do think he is well written (for me, seriously the best Bioware written character alongside Morrigan).. Are we morons or madmen ourselves?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 05:10 .