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[aftohsix]

I've seen several different threads addressing various issues people have taken with the prior two Mass Effect games and how they'd like to see them fixed.

Invariably one of the main criticisms seems to be that said issue doesn't fall in line with the established "lore."

This is what I'm taking issue with.

In a nutshell the Mass Effect games are SCIENCE FICTION games with GIANT ROBOTS and ALIENS WITH PLEASANT AMERICAN ACCENTS. 

I find it hard to understand how one can pick and choose elements of the game to complain about when we have this basic framework established.  Logically either you should be able to "buy into" all of it or none of it.

So my request:  When saying something doesn't line up with the "lore," please say that it doesn't line up with your definition of the lore.

A minor distinction but an important one.  It changes the tone of your argument from "These are facts, Bioware why won't you listen to HARD FACTS YOU SUCK!" to "In my opinion this feature doesn't make sense to me, based on my understanding of the fiction, here is how I think it should be improved."

Follow this suggestion and maybe many of the discussions we have will be more constructive. 

Modifié par aftohsix, 22 juin 2011 - 02:28 .

[NuclearBuddha]

You forgot how the technology is based on magic rocks created by supernovas. ME is not even moderately hard sci-fi, and yes, people should take a chill pill.

[CroGamer002]

There's more Canadian and British accent in Mass Effect's then American.

Which doesn't even exist.

[Mister Mida]

aftohsix wrote...

In a nutshell the Mass Effect games are SCIENCE FICTION games with GIANT ROBOTS and ALIENS WITH PLEASANT AMERICAN ACCENTS. 

What has this to do with what people think what contradicts the lore?

[aftohsix]

Mister Mida wrote...

What has this to do with what people think what contradicts the lore?

I'm saying we're dealing with some pretty "out there" stuff as it is.  An example I'll give you is complaints about the thermal clips and how they don't make sense according to the "lore."

According the the "lore" human beings need to excrete waste to survive.  When did you ever see Shepard take a leak?

I'm just saying it's stupid to cherry pick random issues as not realistic or out of line with some vaguely defined idea of what is and isn't the "lore" in a series of games about giant life destroying robots.

Thank you for asking, I didn't clarify that in my orignal post very well.

Modifié par aftohsix, 22 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[Terror_K]

There's a difference between sci-fi tropes and a series directly contradicting itself and not adhering to its own basic rules, thus losing credibility. For a common example I like to use, one can't try and treat the dangers of space as a major plot point one moment by having the main character die from such factors one moment, and then treat them so cavalierly the next by having squaddies run around in dangerous environments wearing next to nothing. One can also not claim that something has only existed for two years max one moment, then have a grizzled mercenary tell a story from a decade or two ago mentioning said new items and a planet that's been isolated for 10 years littered with them too. One can't have an entire race so worried about contamination that any visitors need to go through strict procedures for decontamination and wear a suit in one case, then later on have a woman with bare skin walking amongst them freely. etc, etc.

[Mister Mida]

aftohsix wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

What has this to do with what people think what contradicts the lore?

I'm saying we're dealing with some pretty "out there" stuff as it is.  An example I'll give you is complaints about the thermal clips and how they don't make sense according to the "lore."

According the the "lore" human beings need to excrete waste to survive.  When did you ever see Shepard take a leak?

I'm just saying it's stupid to cherry pick random issues as not realistic or out of line with some vaguely defined idea of what is and isn't the "lore" in a series of games about giant life destroying robots.

Thank you for asking, I didn't clarify that in my orignal post very well.

You're welcome.

However, humans' need to excrete is something can be deducted out of facts that we all know. We don't need a game to tell us that. What some people are complaining about (for a lack of a better word) is that they see one thing and the codex says another. Example, ME fields don't protect against radiation according to the codex, yet Shepard seems to have no problem at the end of ME2 when he looks into space through an ME field. Just an example, I'm not gonna get into it that much now.

[Dr. rotinaj]

Well, the aliens speak with american accents because of the translators. I can understand why some people pick at certain things that don't line up with the lore, they know that they can't say all the lore is perfect.

Some lore things in ME have been disregarded (usually for the sake of gameplay), like Shepard being able to spam biotic abilities without fainting from exhaustion. People understand that certain lore inconsistencies like this can be disregarded acceptably because there is no alternative. So people will only go after the "plot holes" that are blatant (Although this forum's definition of a plot hole is very stupid, as the OP's post points out) .

[aftohsix]

Terror_K wrote...

There's a difference between sci-fi tropes and a series directly contradicting itself and not adhering to its own basic rules, thus losing credibility. For a common example I like to use, one can't try and treat the dangers of space as a major plot point one moment by having the main character die from such factors one moment, and then treat them so cavalierly the next by having squaddies run around in dangerous environments wearing next to nothing. One can also not claim that something has only existed for two years max one moment, then have a grizzled mercenary tell a story from a decade or two ago mentioning said new items and a planet that's been isolated for 10 years littered with them too. One can't have an entire race so worried about contamination that any visitors need to go through strict procedures for decontamination and wear a suit in one case, then later on have a woman with bare skin walking amongst them freely. etc, etc.

The logic in this argument is sound.  However Mass Effect in not the first and surely not the last sci-fi property to violate its own rules whenever necessary.

Star Trek does it all the time - How many times have they jettisoned the warp core as a plot device?  Star Wars, BSG etc.. etc...

EDIT:  I guess my point is that I think it's a waste of time to get hung up on such small details and let them ruin an otherwise fun experience and even stupider to argue about those small details like they're deal-breaking issues on the game's forum.

Modifié par aftohsix, 22 juin 2011 - 02:45 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Mass Effect is a game. Games should be fun to play, everything else is more or less irrelevant. Graphics, sound, story, ... , and lore only add to the overall gaming experience. Any game that is true to its lore but isn't fun to play is a poor game; a game that is extremely fun to play but doesn't take all the lore too seriously is still a very good game.

It's all about priorities.

[Mister Mida]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Mass Effect is a game. Games should be fun to play, everything else is more or less irrelevant. Graphics, sound, story, ... , and lore only add to the overall gaming experience. Any game that is true to its lore but isn't fun to play is a poor game; a game that is extremely fun to play but doesn't take all the lore too seriously is still a very good game.

It's all about priorities.

Why bother making all this lore up then? If it shouldn't be taken too seriously then it sounds like writing all that stuff is a waste of time.

[Teknor]

Mister Mida wrote...

Why bother making all this lore up then? If it shouldn't be taken too seriously then it sounds like writing all that stuff is a waste of time.

He just says if a healthy balance can't be struck in between lore and gameplay, gameplay takes priority.

[aftohsix]

Mister Mida wrote...

Why bother making all this lore up then? If it shouldn't be taken too seriously then it sounds like writing all that stuff is a waste of time.

So is it either follow the codex to the letter or don't include the codex at all?

[this isnt my name]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Mass Effect is a game. Games should be fun to play, everything else is more or less irrelevant. Graphics, sound, story, ... , and lore only add to the overall gaming experience. Any game that is true to its lore but isn't fun to play is a poor game; a game that is extremely fun to play but doesn't take all the lore too seriously is still a very good game.

It's all about priorities.

Nope. Sorry but there are games far more fun than mass effect e.g vanquish. Instead people play for the writing.
You cant just say writing is less important, for some people its all about the writing. Hell look at crysis that game was all about graphics, people dont always want a certain aspect to be sacraficed for gameplay reasons, especially story and lore.

Personally I think it ruined the atmosphere when you have squadmates in bare skin walking through places with no atmosphere. For heatsinks, I just liked the first system more, especially for sniper rifles.

[Bozorgmehr]

Mister Mida wrote...

Why bother making all this lore up then? If it shouldn't be taken too seriously then it sounds like writing all that stuff is a waste of time.

For the same reasons as improving how things look and sound - for example.

All games look better on pc (assuming one has a decent rig); does that make gameplay 'better' compared to the console versions? I don't think so. Does it improve the overall experience? Yes, it does. Lore is not different, if it can coexist with gameplay all the better; if it interferes with gameplay, lore should be of secondary concern.

[javierabegazo]

My problem with the catsuits, is that when I first played ME1, I never thought Mass Effect would become *THAT* kind of sci-fi.

As much as I love Mass Effect, I did lose a bit of respect when I saw Miranda's body peel, It just makes me a bit sad, when I'm playing Mass Effect, and I happen to be in a scene with Miranda in it, and my girlfriend walks by, and then upon seeing her, just rolls her eyes and disregards the scene altogether. It doesn't do the series credit.

And I hated the breathing masks as well, I felt a bit...cheated when they all had breathing masks. In ME1 we were always treated to interesting armor models for wrex and garrus, and with all these new races in ME2, I was hoping to see more different kinds of models.

[javierabegazo]

Do NOT bring Console Wars into this thread please.

Modifié par javierabegazo, 22 juin 2011 - 03:01 .

[aftohsix]

javierabegazo wrote...

My problem with the catsuits, is that when I first played ME1, I never thought Mass Effect would become *THAT* kind of sci-fi.

As much as I love Mass Effect, I did lose a bit of respect when I saw Miranda's body peel, It just makes me a bit sad, when I'm playing Mass Effect, and I happen to be in a scene with Miranda in it, and my girlfriend walks by, and then upon seeing her, just rolls her eyes and disregards the scene altogether. It doesn't do the series credit.

And I hated the breathing masks as well, I felt a bit...cheated when they all had breathing masks. In ME1 we were always treated to interesting armor models for wrex and garrus, and with all these new races in ME2, I was hoping to see more different kinds of models.

I agree with this.  The masks just looked silly and I know what you mean about your girlfriend rolling her eyes.  My wife saw Isabella when I was playing Dragon Age 2 and asked me why she wasn't wearing pants.

Still when I was playing ME2 I was so absorbed into the game I didn't really notice when Miranda was running around a vaccuum in her catsuit.  I was more focused on taking out the enemies and getting to the next bit of story.  For me more realism isn't as important as having fun combat and more great story.

[locowolfie]

Terror_K wrote...

There's a difference between sci-fi tropes and a series directly contradicting itself and not adhering to its own basic rules, thus losing credibility. For a common example I like to use, one can't try and treat the dangers of space as a major plot point one moment by having the main character die from such factors one moment, and then treat them so cavalierly the next by having squaddies run around in dangerous environments wearing next to nothing. One can also not claim that something has only existed for two years max one moment, then have a grizzled mercenary tell a story from a decade or two ago mentioning said new items and a planet that's been isolated for 10 years littered with them too. One can't have an entire race so worried about contamination that any visitors need to go through strict procedures for decontamination and wear a suit in one case, then later on have a woman with bare skin walking amongst them freely. etc, etc.

EDIT: I like my lore to be sound as well cuz it subtracts from the game, and i think thats a damn shame cuz it is one of the best sci-fi games created to date. Also i do want to point out that people are quick to point out fellow forumians to stop B*tching about lore. But i think that its something that you should be B*tching about, cuz i think its a devs fault for thinking its no biggie for ''looks'' sake to break lore. That is my biggest problem (if its broken for no reason) like the examples given (JACK, MIRANDA'S catsuit etc.)

Modifié par locowolfie, 22 juin 2011 - 03:19 .

[javierabegazo]

The only thing is, having a harder integrity towards art design that respects the genre, shouldn't take resources from actual Game Design when it comes to fun gameplay.

It's simply about making a standard, and sticking to and respecting that Standard, and not wasting any time on art renditions of designs that do not.

[Mister Mida]

aftohsix wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Why bother making all this lore up then? If it shouldn't be taken too seriously then it sounds like writing all that stuff is a waste of time.

So is it either follow the codex to the letter or don't include the codex at all?

More like: if you wrote a piece for lore but you're never planning to 'respect' it, why bother writing that piece of lore?

[In Exile]

Mister Mida wrote...

What has this to do with what people think what contradicts the lore?

Well, for one, the lore contradicted itself from the start of ME1 (just look at how ship-to-ship battles are supposed to work and how ME1 showed them).

More generally, the point is that the lore was never written to be consistent in the first place.

[In Exile]

Terror_K wrote...
There's a difference between sci-fi tropes and a series directly contradicting itself and not adhering to its own basic rules, thus losing credibility.

Yeah, but that's ME1

One can't have an entire race so worried about contamination that any visitors need to go through strict procedures for decontamination and wear a suit in one case, then later on have a woman with bare skin walking amongst them freely. etc, etc.

Don't even dare suggest the quarians aren't a middle finger to consistency.

[In Exile]

javierabegazo wrote...
My problem with the catsuits, is that when I first played ME1, I never thought Mass Effect would become *THAT* kind of sci-fi.

Given that ME1 was essentially Star Wars with a fresh coat of paint, I can't see how a chainmail bikini would be surprising at all.

[Lumikki]

I don't have much problem if people use lore as critism if there is issues in it.. What I don't like is when people choose use lore as they excuse to support they gameplay needs.

Game developers creates theme and lore as basic form as consept as what the virtual world is alike. Then they create game and try to make it as fun as posble to play in that theme they created. Then they make codex to explain why some gameplay stuff works how they do, this is lore details. This fine. Then game devlopers change the gameplay because it did not work well and that means lore details also changed.

I can understand that people want to have consistency in lore, when something is changed, I also do, but not expense of gameplay fun. I can also accept lore detail changes if it's neccassary as well as gameplay changes.